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The need for the source book is for two reasons: paizo needs money and GMs need to be able to read the rules of the thing in question. Buying the packages from lone wolf solves neither of them, as the licensing fee that LW pays paizo is certainly less than paizo makes even on the heavily-discounted PDFs, and even if LW had a "PFS license" option that let you pay extra, that went directly to Paizo, and allowed you to use the HL data package as a source, GMs would still need a way to look up the rules when necessary, and d20pfsrd.Com and Archives of Nethys cannot be assumed to be complete. It MIGHT work for the hardcovers that are on the PRD, only, and that's actually a pretty good idea now that I think about it.
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Yeah, GM-lookup ability shouldn't be the issue. The role they are serving here is purchase validation. They are the gatekeeper to the game and can determine if you've paid for your seat. Data packages and abilities are well described in the app and on the prints, they are certainly detailed enough for an in-game rules check. What I don't like is the double purchase. Who likes to pay twice for content used to accomplish the same goal? I actually really like your special PFS licence idea. Heck, I'd be fine with increased data package pricing.
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Who likes to pay twice for content used to accomplish the same goal?
Speaking as someone who, in the view of some, pays three times for the "same" content (HeroLab, pdfs, hard copies) I'd like to suggest that you're begging the question. The goals best-served by each of the media forms are related, but not identical, and not competing. Reading an entry in the Player Companion line as a bound book, referencing it on your tablet as a pdf, and making use of its options in drop-down menus in HeroLab are, I think, qualitatively and substantively different cognitive experiences, each serving (and serving pretty well, at that) different sets of needs. The most obvious difference among the three is that simply and solely using HeroLab strips game elements of their context within other elements, whether those elements are examples of game design, physical layout, or narrative, to name just three.
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The role they are serving here is purchase validation. They are the gatekeeper to the game and can determine if you've paid for your seat... What I don't like is the double purchase. Who likes to pay twice for content used to accomplish the same goal?
I'm going to try diplomacy here, so please be aware that I don't mean anything hostile or dismissive with my choice of words. If there's a softer way I could have said this, then yes that was my intent.
You don't have to buy the content twice, you only have to buy the Paizo product.
I think you are confusing the roles of Paizo and Lone Wolf Development. LWD has licensed the right to produce a game aid for the Pathfinder RPG system. Paizo is the source of all the content. LWD produces an aid to the content. LWD cannot verify that you've "paid for your seat" only that you bought the aid.
I'm struggling to come up with a good analogy but here's an attempt. Let's say you are standing outside a football stadium with a copy of the official match program. You say "I've got all the player stats, positions, formations, and offensive and defensive schemes right here in this program produced by an official league partner. Why do I have to buy a ticket to get into the game?" Well, the league made a few cents off that program license but they're going to make much more off the ticket. You can see the game without the program but you can't see it without the ticket.
Or maybe Cliff Notes is a better example. Remember them from English class? They highlighted the "important" points from the novel you were supposed to be reading. Sure, some people just used the Cliff Notes and never bothered with the actual book. But that defeats the purpose of reading the book in the first place.
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I know gamers are famously cheap but this is a golden age for cheap gamers.
You no longer need to buy the printed books at $20 to $50 each. You can get almost every one as a PDF for $10. If you want the HL access you can pay another $10 for the hardcovers or buy the packages for the splatbooks which works out to less than $2 a piece.
And still people complain? Really? Why?
BTW this thread is supposed to be about Realm Works which is a phenomenal product that every GM should take a look at.
Please don't get me wrong.
I *love* HeroLab. It is arguably one of the most crucial tools in my RPG arsenal, save my computer.
.pdfs are at best 'okay' for how I process information, though. I find them horribly awkward to read through, obtain information from, etc, so I need 'hard copy' to 'grasp' it better.
This can make things rather interesting if I discover something neat that's 'just there' that I've either picked up through a Hero Lab data package (necessitating the purchase of a hardcover Paizo product) or through word of mouth (necessitating the purchase of both hardover Paizo product AND a HL data package, and possibly .pdf if the hardcover is not available...)
As I noted above, I love the application, and I am invested in it, have even put in undocumented feature reports on it that the support team has really plowed into.
But I can also see how being 'on a budget' could REALLY crimp that enthusiasm if there are other people out there like me.
EDIT:
I'm not sold on Realm Works, yet, in part due to my massive Paizo/HL addiction...
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BTW this thread is supposed to be about Realm Works which is a phenomenal product that every GM should take a look at.
I can only wistfully wait for a version that works on my iPad, MacBook, or iPhone, alas! (Not complaining, really, I love HeroLab, and 30 plus years of using Apple products has taught me patience if nothing else!)
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Yeah, GM-lookup ability shouldn't be the issue. The role they are serving here is purchase validation. They are the gatekeeper to the game and can determine if you've paid for your seat. Data packages and abilities are well described in the app and on the prints, they are certainly detailed enough for an in-game rules check. What I don't like is the double purchase. Who likes to pay twice for content used to accomplish the same goal? I actually really like your special PFS licence idea. Heck, I'd be fine with increased data package pricing.
GM lookup is an important issue, not a non-issue.
No, it is not purchase validation, it is that you need a rules source that the GM can use to verify your feat/ability/power/magic item does what you think it does, and is not partially or completely neutralized by some other ability/feat/etc. you also have. As an example, without the rules source, you cannot be sure that the +1 to hit form Bless and the +1 to hit from Bardic Inspire Courage stack. Or that the +1 each grants to saves vs fear don't stack.No, the packages in HL, and the Pathfinder in RealmsWorks are additional features of said programs, available for ease of use, not as proof that you paid for your seat.
And, regarding data packs, etc., even though they are getting better, they still have bugs or typos, or even pieces that aren't fully implemented yet.
Paying twice? Not really. You are paying L:WD for use of their program on Windows, Mac, or iPad. You are buying product that can be used offline from Paizo.
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Who likes to pay twice for content used to accomplish the same goal?Speaking as someone who, in the view of some, pays three times for the "same" content (HeroLab, pdfs, hard copies) I'd like to suggest that you're begging the question. The goals best-served by each of the media forms are related, but not identical, and not competing.
They're not identical but unless everyone or almost everyone does the same thing you do they're very much competing. My purchase of dead tree versions certainly declined once i got the kindle and the bibliophiles i know don't buy PDFs, and an almost constant complaint about herolab is people who buy it and try to use it as a legal source. I think you're closer to the exception than the rule.
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I know gamers are famously cheap but this is a golden age for cheap gamers.
You no longer need to buy the printed books at $20 to $50 each. You can get almost every one as a PDF for $10. If you want the HL access you can pay another $10 for the hardcovers or buy the packages for the splatbooks which works out to less than $2 a piece.
And still people complain? Really? Why?
BTW this thread is supposed to be about Realm Works which is a phenomenal product that every GM should take a look at.
i totally agree.
They have sales all the time plus the bundle stuff up to make it easy quicck and even cheaper to buy stuff.
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I buy the books, pdfs, hero lab, and a pfs Rd app on ipad.
Now, I only buy hard covers, and just do splat book pdfs.
LWD is its own company. Paizo is its own company. If you like PFS, than buy the books from Paizo so that we can continue our hobby.
If you like having nifty apps, than support the app developer. If however you think you're supporting Paizo, you are not unless your buying books / pdfs.
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PFS scenarios will eventually be available in Realm works according to a post on the LWD forum. When and which ones is not yet known.
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?p=220308&highlight=society#po st220308
PFS scenarios are pretty simple so I'm not sure how much benefit will come from integrating them into RW by themselves but having the rest of the Golarian setting also installed will make PFS scenarios "fit" into the world much better.
It does provide an additional tool though. And would make handling knowledge checks and handouts easier. I use Realm Works both for my writing and for campaign management.
One drawback for such use though is that either you (the GM) need a second screen or someone else needs a laptop with a realmworks player license installed on it.
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Personally, I find HL gets me to buy books. I see some interesting option when tinkering with a character, and note what book it's in. Then at some point I end up going "gee, I wish I had that" during a PFS session. Then when I get home, I end up buying that book.
Then again, I ended up buying some books after someone in my lodge pulled out an option or mentioned an option in passing. I go "What book's that in?" Then end up buying the book. And probably the herolab data package too.
Heck, today I wound up buying the Pathfinder Society Primer early on in our session after someone mentioned cracked ioun stones. Specifically, one that would negate the risk of being Dominated or Charmed.
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Personally, I find HL gets me to buy books. I see some interesting option when tinkering with a character, and note what book it's in. Then at some point I end up going "gee, I wish I had that" during a PFS session. Then when I get home, I end up buying that book.
Then again, I ended up buying some books after someone in my lodge pulled out an option or mentioned an option in passing. I go "What book's that in?" Then end up buying the book. And probably the herolab data package too.
Heck, today I wound up buying the Pathfinder Society Primer early on in our session after someone mentioned cracked ioun stones. Specifically, one that would negate the risk of being Dominated or Charmed.
Off topic:
If you're thinking of the Clear Spindle ioun stone's resonant power, I don't think you can get that from a cracked version. Generally, only the intact ioun stones can be slotted in a wayfinder to get the resonant power.|
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Yeah, cracked ones were mentioned too as something the regular GM loves to get due to being cheep and effective. Actually, I need to double check the guild guide to see if cracked ioun stones are "always available" or not. I've got a ectoplasmist spiritualist who's doing their just hit level 2 rebuild. :)
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If you're thinking of the Clear Spindle ioun stone's resonant power, I don't think you can get that from a cracked version. Generally, only the intact ioun stones can be slotted in a wayfinder to get the resonant power.
According to the Pathfinder Society Primer, there's a 25% chance that a cracked or flawed ioun stone gives the resonant power. Which I'm guessing would have to be rolled in front of a the gm (or a PFS officer), with them signing off on that fact. Right?
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According to the Pathfinder Society Primer, there's a 25% chance that a cracked or flawed ioun stone gives the resonant power. Which I'm guessing would have to be rolled in front of a the gm (or a PFS officer), with them signing off on that fact. Right?
If you're thinking of the Clear Spindle ioun stone's resonant power, I don't think you can get that from a cracked version. Generally, only the intact ioun stones can be slotted in a wayfinder to get the resonant power.
No, they never provide resonance as a PFS house rule to keep things evenish between gambling characters (same reason you don't roll stats)
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Good to know. But here's a question I'm now wondering... Why the frell is Hero Lab telling me to pick a spell my flawed tourmaline sphere ioun stone grants 3 times per day? The stone's suppose to just give me +2 effective con before dying (but a -1 penalty to stabilize).
Or is that a bug I should report? It's something that's easy enough to ignore if it's a bug. If not, it's something kinda useful.
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Good to know. But here's a question I'm now wondering... Why the frell is Hero Lab telling me to pick a spell my flawed tourmaline sphere ioun stone grants 3 times per day? The stone's suppose to just give me +2 effective con before dying (but a -1 penalty to stabilize).
Or is that a bug I should report? It's something that's easy enough to ignore if it's a bug. If not, it's something kinda useful.
It seems to think its a vibrant purple prism
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Good to know. But here's a question I'm now wondering... Why the frell is Hero Lab telling me to pick a spell my flawed tourmaline sphere ioun stone grants 3 times per day? The stone's suppose to just give me +2 effective con before dying (but a -1 penalty to stabilize).
The same reason you shouldn't use Hero Lab as a rules source, because as awesome of a program it is, it isn't perfect. (Believe me, I love the program personally and use it almost daily, but it definitely isn't always correct.)
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Good to know. But here's a question I'm now wondering... Why the frell is Hero Lab telling me to pick a spell my flawed tourmaline sphere ioun stone grants 3 times per day? The stone's suppose to just give me +2 effective con before dying (but a -1 penalty to stabilize).
Or is that a bug I should report? It's something that's easy enough to ignore if it's a bug. If not, it's something kinda useful.
That is a bug you should report, since it shouldn't be doing that.
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Good to know. But here's a question I'm now wondering... Why the frell is Hero Lab telling me to pick a spell my flawed tourmaline sphere ioun stone grants 3 times per day? The stone's suppose to just give me +2 effective con before dying (but a -1 penalty to stabilize).The same reason you shouldn't use Hero Lab as a rules source, because as awesome of a program it is, it isn't perfect. (Believe me, I love the program personally and use it almost daily, but it definitely isn't always correct.)
Yeah, realize that. I wasn't expecting a spell choice drop down, so figured it might be a bug due to what the pathfinder society primer says about the stone and resonant power (if there is one). Guess there's something new to report for them to fix.
EDIT: Did a bit of testing before sending the bug report. Guess the bug only affects the flawed version.