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Lorathorn wrote:
I never thought about it before, but you could in theory only prepare higher level spells, but you'd basically hose yourself out of lower level spells and versatility. That's actually a pretty neat approach...

I agree totally. You could do it the way the rule reads, but it would be counter productive because you would end up wasting nearly all your spell slots, though you would have several higher level spells to choose from, you could only cast the same number as you have spell slots.

Yes you would hose yourself. So which way did the game designers mean it should and can be played?


thejeff wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:

You can't prepare spells of a higher level in a lower level spell slot, so no you can't prepare 15 6th level spells. You prepare spells in their appropriate level slots, but you can cast lower level spells using higher level slots to give it a more powerful effect.

For example, if you took counterspell, dispel magic and fireball to fill your 3rd level spell slots, you are free to spend all three 3rd level slots on fireball spells. You could later use a forth level spell slot to cast a dispel magic, or you could use a fifth level spell slot for a fireball spell, which would inflict more damage than a fireball cast using a third level spell slot.

The spells you memorize are the spells available for the wizard to cast that day, but you get to decide how you end up using your spell slots. This differs from 3e where you had to assign a specific spell to each spell slot. But under no circumstances can you cast a higher level spell with a lower level slot (ie you could never cast a 2nd level spell using a 1st level spell slot). You can do the reverse though.

I don't have the PHB in front of me, but from the Basic PDF:
Quote:

You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifir + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

For example, if you’re a 3rd-level wizard, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With an Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spellbook.

Which spells you can prepare is not directly linked to spell slots, other than that you can't prepare spells of a higher level than your highest spell slot.

You prepare spells. Then you use slots to cast them. Separate things.

He could prepare 15 6th level spells. It would probably be foolish to do so, since he only has one 6th...

Exactly.


I have no idea what they intended, but I can tell you I like that it allows a player to add a higher level of "guess work" into their character's day.

So, your character doesn't know if the dungeon has trolls or not, the DM keeps hinting at it, but you are not sure. The other day the party encountered a chasm in the dungeon, and you know that if you can fly, while the rest of the party uses ropes and grappling hooks to get across, it might give your group an advantage on not being ambushed

But darn it, do you prepare fly or that fire spell, after all, you only have one slot.

The heck with it, you prepare both, and prepare one less lower level spell, hoping you actually will use the lower level slots for the spells you did prepare, and keeping your options open with those two higher level spells.


Maybe you're right, but for the life of me I can't think of any reason it would make sense to prepare a whole bunch of high level spells when you'll only be able to cast one or two and end up cutting off all access to your lower level spell slots. I guess, Terqeum's post above provides a situation where you might go that route, but I wouldn't likely do it if I were running a wizard.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Maybe you're right, but for the life of me I can't think of any reason it would make sense to prepare a whole bunch of high level spells when you'll only be able to cast one or two and end up cutting off all access to your lower level spell slots. I guess, Terqeum's post above provides a situation where you might go that route, but I wouldn't likely do it if I were running a wizard.

No, you'd probably never go the full route, but that doesn't mean you revert to preparing 1 spell for every slot at every level.

You'd definitely want enough low level spells to guarantee being able to use up your spell slots, but that might just be a couple of 1st and 2nd that scale well.


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P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Maybe you're right, but for the life of me I can't think of any reason it would make sense to prepare a whole bunch of high level spells when you'll only be able to cast one or two and end up cutting off all access to your lower level spell slots. I guess, Terqeum's post above provides a situation where you might go that route, but I wouldn't likely do it if I were running a wizard.

I have a wizard who uses a lot of third level and above slots. He doesn't prepare any second level spells and only has shield prepared at first level (from memory).

Having no low level spells would be a waste, but if you have a few 'go to' spells at the low levels you can make good use of the versatility.

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At least prepare misty step at 2nd level! Bonus action to move 30 feet can be key in a lot of situations. And you can just use the 2nd level slots for shield once you use up the 1st level slots.

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OK. With the FAQ's revelation (at least to me) that a rogue can sneak attack on an opportunity attack (or any other attack you get when it's not your turn) and still sneak attack when it is your turn, is the Sentinel feat worth getting for a melee rogue?

One of the benefits of the Sentinel feat is that you can use your reaction to attack an opponent that attacks an adjacent ally. With the clarification from the WotC FAQ (or whatever its official name is), this would be a sneak attack.


As a DM I would allow that all day long. I mean if a player is playing a "combat-centric" rogue, then this is a feat that is worth it in every way.

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Cool!

I'll have to consider it for my swashbuckling parkour rogue thief.

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I don't know if as a rogue you want to incentivize enemies to attack you more often. Especially since you rely on your reaction for Uncanny Dodge.

I wouldn't spend my ASI on it, but it could shine sometimes.

Quick Edit: I'd (almost) always rather Sneak Attack of Opportunity than Uncanny Dodge, but I'd rather get the AoO at lower cost (or more reliably).

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I do like the other benefits from Sentinel, even if they work a lot better with a reach build.

My rogue already has Mobility (he's a parkour rogue, with Expertise in Acrobatics and Athletics). I was considering taking Dueling Defense at 10th level, but I'm going to see how often I use Uncanny Dodge first.

I usually GMed the campaign, so I played 1st-4th on and off, and will start again at level 7.

I have an odd Dex score. Any good +1 Dex feats? I'm considering Moderately Armored for the Shield proficiency, and then eventually taking Shield Master for the bonus action Shove maneuver, which I'll have Expertise on from being good at parkour (Expertise in Athletics).


Anyone have any idea how to convert a 2e multiclass character over to 5e? Say I have a Thief 10/Mage 10. How would that look in 5e?


WotC released a conversion guide on their website, but I don't have a link handy.

I think you divide any additional class levels by 3 (round down) and then add them to the level of the primary class.

So your Thief 10/Mage 10 (which I'm not sure how that happened, since Thieves level up much, much faster than mages in 2E) would be a 13th level character with some mix of Rogue and Wizard levels.

Ideally, the way to do it is to look at what the old character can do and do your best to replicate the feel of how that character played via a combination of race, background, class levels and feats.

Without knowing how the specific character in question worked, I'd probably do something like Rogue (AT) 4/Wizard 9 to maintain the access to 5th level spells and be 10th level caster.


I read the guide, but unfortunately they don't talk about 2e multiclassing or dual classing. That's why I asked here. :)

For this character specifically, I'm looking at converting some old adventures, and one of the villains is a Thief 10/Mage 10. I wanted to approach the conversion in two ways - 1) Standard character conversion using PC class levels, and 2) Monster Manual conversion using NPCs and modifying them.

Sometimes one way feels better than the other, and I wasn't sure how to make the approach from the PC side.

Thanks for your advice!


In 1e there were two different methods for multi-classing a character depending on the race of the character

Demi-humans could advance in more than one race at the same time (dividing experience points between all classes). Thus in this case it was common to have different class levels due to the different experience point requirements for different classes.

Humans could only advance in one class at a time, but if they met specific requirements they could change class, and begin earning experience points in a new class (thus you could have a 6th level human rogue, who decides to advance as a fighter, to 7th level, and then become a 1st level Bard). A human multi-class character gains no additional hit points in the second (or subsequent classes) until they reach one level higher than their previous class.


bookrat wrote:

I read the guide, but unfortunately they don't talk about 2e multiclassing or dual classing. That's why I asked here. :)

For this character specifically, I'm looking at converting some old adventures, and one of the villains is a Thief 10/Mage 10. I wanted to approach the conversion in two ways - 1) Standard character conversion using PC class levels, and 2) Monster Manual conversion using NPCs and modifying them.

Sometimes one way feels better than the other, and I wasn't sure how to make the approach from the PC side.

Thanks for your advice!

In a case like that, I'd probably focus more on what the villain's methods are and what sort of challenge he's supposed to present to the party and then use whatever setup works best to replicate it.

I personally prefer to stat-up NPCs as PCs rather than monsters, but that's because I find the monster creation guidelines a little obtuse.

Sovereign Court

Honestly, when making NPC's, my approach hands down has been to stat them as monsters. It is many times less stressful than attempting to figure out the intricacies of player classes. What you need to do is not consider an NPC as a number of levels, but a challenge rating, and start from there.

Monsters tend to be far more durable than player characters (with hit points far outstripping their challenge ratings), so that obviates the need for class levels right from the start.

The brilliance is in just giving the NPC spellcasting and abilities that are in line with what a character of a rough approximate level would get without correlating anything to hit dice.

But... if you'd rather not go that route, I'd suggest maybe just making the character an arcane trickster or Lore college bard? Change the spell list and I think you'd have yourself a good approximation. I would consider boosting hit points though, since PC classes are not really meant to stand up to a group of PCs (or just adjust the final approximate CR down a bit; class levels are not a good gauge of CR).

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Honestly, if this is for an NPC, just make it a straight up Rogue (arcane trickster)10/Wizard 10 (or Sorcerer 10).

5d6 sneak attack, 5th level spells, 7th level spell slots, great defensive class abilities, and enough hit points to challenge a 10th level party--especially if you use NPC rule and replace the arcane d6s with Medium-sized critter d8s. Also, the Tough feat.


bookrat wrote:

I read the guide, but unfortunately they don't talk about 2e multiclassing or dual classing. That's why I asked here. :)

For this character specifically, I'm looking at converting some old adventures, and one of the villains is a Thief 10/Mage 10. I wanted to approach the conversion in two ways - 1) Standard character conversion using PC class levels, and 2) Monster Manual conversion using NPCs and modifying them.

Sometimes one way feels better than the other, and I wasn't sure how to make the approach from the PC side.

Thanks for your advice!

I know someone who put out a document of stuff like that on DMs Guild.

They didn't ask me to edit the document (I edit occasionally...rather put off they didn't ask me...though it could be they didn't expect to be paid much and so couldn't pay me...OR they don't like my attitude towards 5e and decided not to let me anywhere close to it), but I believe they put something up in regards to that.

Good Luck.


SmiloDan wrote:

Honestly, if this is for an NPC, just make it a straight up Rogue (arcane trickster)10/Wizard 10 (or Sorcerer 10).

5d6 sneak attack, 5th level spells, 7th level spell slots, great defensive class abilities, and enough hit points to challenge a 10th level party--especially if you use NPC rule and replace the arcane d6s with Medium-sized critter d8s. Also, the Tough feat.

What I ended up doing was using the Mage NPC (CR 6), changing the spells a bit, and then added the Spy NPC (CR 1) on top of it. Called it CR 8, and recalculated HP based on that.

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Yeah, knowing the CR goal would have been a little helpful! :-D

Sovereign Court

Haha, an artful conversion. I might steal your method.

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To add a question... suppose that you were an 18th level wizard with Spell Mastery, and you chose shield as one of your spells. How often then could you cast shield, and would casting it not allow you to cast another spell? I forget if you get a spell per turn or per round.


Lorathorn wrote:
To add a question... suppose that you were an 18th level wizard with Spell Mastery, and you chose shield as one of your spells. How often then could you cast shield, and would casting it not allow you to cast another spell? I forget if you get a spell per turn or per round.

Shield uses your Reaction, so only once per round. But since it lasts until the start of your next turn, there's no reason to cast it more than once a round.

But, yes, an 18th level wizard who choose Shield for their Spell Mastery could cast it every single round if they wished. Though since it burns their reaction, it would prevent them from using Counterspell.

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But would it burn through their ability to cast other spells within that round?

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What do you mean? Does this Spell Mastery thing put some kind of limit on you or something? (Don't have my book with me at the moment.)


The normal rule is that if you cast a bonus action spell in a round turn, you cannot cast another spell that same round turn unless it is a cantrip.

A spell that uses a reaction is not a spell that uses a bonus action, so that rule does not apply.

You can freely cast shield and another spell in the same round. The only question regarding the rules is whether you can cast a bonus action spell and a reaction spell the same round - ask your GM.

Correction: the rule for the bonus action spell is for your turn. Reaction spells are cast outside your turn during the same round. You can cast both according to the rules.

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So an 18th level wizard can select misty step and shield, and then use cantrips every round while teleporting every round and boosting his AC by +5 every round.

4d10 a round isn't bad. But dip 2 levels of warlock and max out Charisma somehow, and make it 4d10+20. Or 4d10+16 with an item of 19 Charisma.


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SmiloDan wrote:
So an 18th level wizard can select misty step and shield, and then use cantrips every round while teleporting every round and boosting his AC by +5 every round.

I have an abjuration Mage who just got to 18th level and this is his strategy - add in resistance to spell damage and advantage on spell saves and he's a pretty good tank who can be wherever he needs to be. He's also a mountain dwarf, so has medium armour proficiency.

Losing counterspell on the rounds he casts shield is a bit distressing.

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Steve Geddes wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
So an 18th level wizard can select misty step and shield, and then use cantrips every round while teleporting every round and boosting his AC by +5 every round.

I have an abjuration Mage who just got to 18th level and this is his strategy - add in resistance to spell damage and advantage on spell saves and he's a pretty good tank who can be wherever he needs to be. He's also a mountain dwarf, so has medium armour proficiency.

Losing counterspell on the rounds he casts shield is a bit distressing.

I'm so jealous!!!

I plan on making an abjuration mountain dwarf wizard. For PF Kingmaker, I made a barbarian 1/magus X that wields a dwarven waraxe, and plan on re-building him someday. Replacing the barbarian level with the Outlander Background.

You just have to choose between counterspell and shield every round, just like you have to choose between blur and mirror image. :-P


bookrat wrote:

The normal rule is that if you cast a bonus action spell in a round turn, you cannot cast another spell that same round turn unless it is a cantrip.

A spell that uses a reaction is not a spell that uses a bonus action, so that rule does not apply.

You can freely cast shield and another spell in the same round. The only question regarding the rules is whether you can cast a bonus action spell and a reaction spell the same round - ask your GM.

Correction: the rule for the bonus action spell is for your turn. Reaction spells are cast outside your turn during the same round. You can cast both according to the rules.

Huh. I wouldn't have expected such a restriction to be included in the casting time section of the PHB... which explains why I had missed it.

On one hand, it makes the sorcerer a little more balanced against the wizard. On the other hand, it makes bonus action cleric spells a lot less useful. On the gripping hand, it means the Fighter 2 / Caster X is even more the king of action economy.

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Yeah, I missed that rule about bonus action spells for about 10 levels.

At least clerics can attack in melee pretty competently and still use bonus action spells. And sacred flame isn't the worst....

Sovereign Court

I don't understand, how does this help balance a sorcerer? Because they can quicken their spells?

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Probably. You can't cast two 1st level or higher spells in one round, but you can cast a cantrip and a quickened spell. At least cantrips are pretty potent in 5th Ed.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, that's not bad. Interesting things to ponder...

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I guess it's part of their action economy limits.


SmiloDan wrote:
I guess it's part of their action economy limits.

One of the things we have learned from earlier editions is that the power to break/circumvent action economy might just be the most powerful thing at the table. 5E's limits on that might not always make the most realistic sense, but it looks like they chose to err on the side of balance instead.

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Grey Lensman wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
I guess it's part of their action economy limits.
One of the things we have learned from earlier editions is that the power to break/circumvent action economy might just be the most powerful thing at the table. 5E's limits on that might not always make the most realistic sense, but it looks like they chose to err on the side of balance instead.

You know that's right!!! :-D


Lorathorn wrote:
I don't understand, how does this help balance a sorcerer? Because they can quicken their spells?

Because the ability at higher levels to fling two fireballs (or any other spell) a round using Quicken Spell, plus the other utility offered by Sorcery Points and the inherent bonuses of the Draconic bloodline would make the sorcerer leagues ahead of the wizard.

In play among our groups, we'd found the wizard to be substantially lacking compared to the bard and sorcerer. This change tones back the sorcerer at least to make them a little closer. The wizard's ability to change their spells is countered by there not being that many spells, and most non-instant spells requiring concentration, which neuters the batman wizard playstyle and pushes for the more fire-and-forget style that the sorcerer is somewhat better at.

At least, that's our experience with 5E: Those playing a wizard rapidly get frustrated and go and make a bard or sorcerer (or a light/arcana cleric) instead, and are generally much happier. Similar experience with warlocks, for the most part.

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Our wizard is a diviner. He gets a lot of mileage out of ritualistic divinations. His portents are really useful too. He's a blaster, and he has a rod that grants him the evoker 2nd level feature, and that is really useful too.

Our other campaign has a sorcerer and a warlock, but it isn't as "sophisticated" as our main campaign. It's mostly a series of one-offs.


I think the wizard still offers a lot of utility in 5E. Not only can they change their spells up every day, as mentioned, but the fact that any ritual spells they know can be cast out of their spellbook without them needing to be prepared/known is incredibly useful. A cleric or bard using rituals just saves spell slots. A wizard using rituals both saves spell slots and can free up their prepared spells for other things.


Kalshane wrote:
I think the wizard still offers a lot of utility in 5E. Not only can they change their spells up every day, as mentioned, but the fact that any ritual spells they know can be cast out of their spellbook without them needing to be prepared/known is incredibly useful. A cleric or bard using rituals just saves spell slots. A wizard using rituals both saves spell slots and can free up their prepared spells for other things.

Of course, the best ritual caster is a Pact of the Tome Warlock because they can learn every ritual there is.

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How does a Warlock cast ritual spells, in respects to preparing and not preparing? I imagine it doesn't work the same as it does with Lore College bards and Clerics.

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The Boon of the Tome gives them a magical book they can cast 3 cantrips with. Then there is an invocation they can take that gives them a couple rituals, and the ability to add all the ritual spells to their Ritual Book.


Ventnor wrote:
Kalshane wrote:
I think the wizard still offers a lot of utility in 5E. Not only can they change their spells up every day, as mentioned, but the fact that any ritual spells they know can be cast out of their spellbook without them needing to be prepared/known is incredibly useful. A cleric or bard using rituals just saves spell slots. A wizard using rituals both saves spell slots and can free up their prepared spells for other things.
Of course, the best ritual caster is a Pact of the Tome Warlock because they can learn every ritual there is.

True. (Or anyone who takes the "Ritual Caster" feat.) But the Wizard gets that ability with Wizard rituals (which I believe includes the largest share of spells with the ritual tag, but I haven't confirmed that) for "free" on top of being a full caster class.

If you want rituals to be your gig, then yes, Tome Warlock is the way to go (and I like the Tome Warlock quite a bit) but the Wizard gets a lot of utility out of ritual spells, as well.

And I like how it changes the feel of the class. In the past, I've only seen Unseen Servant used a handful of times (generally as an attempt to circumvent traps and the like). Now it's pretty much a given the wizard is going to summon his Unseen Servant when the party makes camp. That's a nice, flavorful thing, in my mind.

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