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I know rules wise they don't, I'm just curious what people think of allowing things like the Swashbuckler's Swashbuckler Weapon Training or the Cavern Sniper's (drow fighter archetype) Sniper Training or the Archer Fighter's Expert Archer... and so on to qualify for the advanced weapon training options.
They aren't the same feature, but at the same time the lack of compatibility sometimes makes the specialist archetype worse than the base fighter taking the right AWT.
Well, Advanced Weapon Training comes instead of selecting an additional weapon group for weapon training. Right off the bat, that leaves out single-group archetypes such as Archer, Crossbowman and Cavern Sniper. Swashbucklers don't get weapon training with a secondary group either.
The AWT feat only requires Weapon Training and Fighter level 5. It has already been answered in the FAQ that specialist weapon training qualifies...IF it is phrased as Weapon training, with a specific group, under a different name. Cavern Snipers qualify, but Archers and Crossbowmen don't, because what they have is a scaling attack/damage bonus with a specific weapon group, not Weapon Training. I agree with the ruling, the bad game design is in the original archetype write-ups.
Swashbucklers almost qualify, because they count as Fighter levels, and the weapon training FAQ, the commentaries in the thread it was posted, and the official existence of Life Oracles with Channeling feats all indicate that the Weapon Training ruling is not limited to interactions within a single class. But, Swashbuckler Weapon Training is not weapon training either.
Well, Advanced Weapon Training comes instead of selecting an additional weapon group for weapon training. Right off the bat, that leaves out single-group archetypes such as Archer, Crossbowman and Cavern Sniper. Swashbucklers don't get weapon training with a secondary group either.
The AWT feat only requires Weapon Training and Fighter level 5. It has already been answered in the FAQ that specialist weapon training qualifies...IF it is phrased as Weapon training, with a specific group, under a different name. Cavern Snipers qualify, but Archers and Crossbowmen don't, because what they have is a scaling attack/damage bonus with a specific weapon group, not Weapon Training. I agree with the ruling, the bad game design is in the original archetype write-ups.
Swashbucklers almost qualify, because they count as Fighter levels, and the weapon training FAQ, the commentaries in the thread it was posted, and the official existence of Life Oracles with Channeling feats all indicate that the Weapon Training ruling is not limited to interactions within a single class. But, Swashbuckler Weapon Training is not weapon training either.
Wait, but Swashbuckler Weapon Training has the words Weapon Training, no?
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So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one. A +1 bonus on attack rolls is equivalent to Weapon Focus, while a +1 bonus on damage rolls is equivalent to half a feat because Weapon Specialization is worth +2 damage. This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose. You also get those effective feats whenever your bonus in an existing group rises or when you select a new group.
The PDT consists of smart people; they knew this already when they designed the first fighter archetypes. That's why when you look at almost all of the archetypes that trade weapon training (such as the archer from the Advanced Player's Guide), you'll see one very common design trend: replacing weapon training at an instance-by-instance basis instead of all at once. For example, the archer trades weapon training 1 with something, then weapon training 2, and so on. In most cases, weapon training 1 is replaced with an identical bonus in a specialized weapon group. For example, the archer doesn't gain any instances of weapon training, but he does get the "weapon training bonus" at the normal level, and it progresses as standard for weapon training. This is what the OP noticed when asking if "pseudo weapon training" abilities should qualify for AWTs.
But at every level thereafter, such archetypes ALWAYS give new abilities in place of the other instances of weapon training. The archer, for example, gets safe shot at 9th level, evasive archer at 13th level, and volley at 17th level. While the overall usefulness of these abilities varies, they are all strong effects. You can say that such archetypes have AWT built into them already; they just require you to make specific choices. (And are admittedly less cool than getting more skill ranks and some of the other AWTs that I wrote.)
Giving AWT to archetypes that trade away weapon training without significant cost is NOT a good idea, because ultimately that's not helping to improve the fighter class, which was the goal of the AWTs. Pre-Weapon Master's Handbook, it was generally agreed that one should always pick a fighter archetype because you never lost anything useful. Giving characters without weapon training the ability to get their abilities on top of the ADTs just recreates a world where there's no reason to ever be a standard, unarchetyped fighter.
I've been playing with an idea where there would effectively be a Martial Focus feat that acts as a gateway feat into the AWTs for fighters without the weapon training ability, but ultimately the option would have to be designed to be an actual cost for the archetyped fighter, and it would have to be designed in a way that non-fighters (including those with effective fighter levels) couldn't gain access to AWTs without significant investment. (Again, I have my ideas but for now that's all they'll be.)
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Wait, but Swashbuckler Weapon Training has the words Weapon Training, no?Well, Advanced Weapon Training comes instead of selecting an additional weapon group for weapon training. Right off the bat, that leaves out single-group archetypes such as Archer, Crossbowman and Cavern Sniper. Swashbucklers don't get weapon training with a secondary group either.
The AWT feat only requires Weapon Training and Fighter level 5. It has already been answered in the FAQ that specialist weapon training qualifies...IF it is phrased as Weapon training, with a specific group, under a different name. Cavern Snipers qualify, but Archers and Crossbowmen don't, because what they have is a scaling attack/damage bonus with a specific weapon group, not Weapon Training. I agree with the ruling, the bad game design is in the original archetype write-ups.
Swashbucklers almost qualify, because they count as Fighter levels, and the weapon training FAQ, the commentaries in the thread it was posted, and the official existence of Life Oracles with Channeling feats all indicate that the Weapon Training ruling is not limited to interactions within a single class. But, Swashbuckler Weapon Training is not weapon training either.
Swashbucklers do not qualify at all. First, the mechanic is inherently different. Fighters pick multiple groups of weapons as they level up, and what you're fundamentally giving up for an AWT is the option to pick another weapon group. Swashbucklers, in contrast, don't pick ANYTHING with swashbuckler weapon training; the ability comes online at Level 5, applies to a category of weapon, and at subsequent levels that bonus increases. Second, having the words "weapon training" in your name doesn't make you the weapon training class ability any more than the "weapon training" rogue talent qualifies.
Swashbucklers do not qualify at all. First, the mechanic is inherently different. Fighters pick multiple groups of weapons as they level up, and what you're fundamentally giving up for an AWT is the option to pick another weapon group. Swashbucklers, in contrast, don't pick ANYTHING with swashbuckler weapon training; the ability comes online at Level 5, applies to a category of weapon, and at subsequent levels that bonus increases. Second, having the words "weapon training" in your name doesn't make you the weapon training class ability any more than the "weapon training" rogue talent qualifies.Wait, but Swashbuckler Weapon Training has the words Weapon Training, no?Well, Advanced Weapon Training comes instead of selecting an additional weapon group for weapon training. Right off the bat, that leaves out single-group archetypes such as Archer, Crossbowman and Cavern Sniper. Swashbucklers don't get weapon training with a secondary group either.
The AWT feat only requires Weapon Training and Fighter level 5. It has already been answered in the FAQ that specialist weapon training qualifies...IF it is phrased as Weapon training, with a specific group, under a different name. Cavern Snipers qualify, but Archers and Crossbowmen don't, because what they have is a scaling attack/damage bonus with a specific weapon group, not Weapon Training. I agree with the ruling, the bad game design is in the original archetype write-ups.
Swashbucklers almost qualify, because they count as Fighter levels, and the weapon training FAQ, the commentaries in the thread it was posted, and the official existence of Life Oracles with Channeling feats all indicate that the Weapon Training ruling is not limited to interactions within a single class. But, Swashbuckler Weapon Training is not weapon training either.
I meant that Swashbucklers almost qualify for the AWT *feat* - except for the part where their single-group weapon training isn't actually weapon training.
Swashbucklers do not qualify at all. First, the mechanic is inherently different. Fighters pick multiple groups of weapons as they level up, and what you're fundamentally giving up for an AWT is the option to pick another weapon group. Swashbucklers, in contrast, don't pick ANYTHING with swashbuckler weapon training; the ability comes online at Level 5, applies to a category of weapon, and at subsequent levels that bonus increases. Second, having the words "weapon training" in your name doesn't make you the weapon training class ability any more than the "weapon training" rogue talent qualifies.
So, how would the Sohei Monk Weapon Training function?
-It specifies "As the fighter ability"
-You need to pick from multiple groups of weapons as you level up.
-Comes online at 6 and upgrades every 6 levels.
To that end does Weapon Training from the Fighter VMC qualify?
Finally would an Archetype like Drill Sergeant, which trades away Weapon Training 2/3/4 but keeps the scaling on Weapon Training 1, be able to grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat?
Contributor
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So, how would the Sohei Monk Weapon Training function?
-It specifies "As the fighter ability"
-You need to pick from multiple groups of weapons as you level up.
-Comes online at 6 and upgrades every 6 levels.To that end does Weapon Training from the Fighter VMC qualify?
Finally would an Archetype like Drill Sergeant, which trades away Weapon Training 2/3/4 but keeps the scaling on Weapon Training 1, be able to grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat?
I don't think the sohei does - they get the fighter ability, but they aren't fighters. A gestalt sohei/(class that counts as fighter) probably could.
A VMC fighter should be able to, although they wouldn't get a swap until 19th level. I seem to recall that VMC characters don't count as being "class level X", though, so they couldn't take the feat unless their class counted as fighter. That might also prevent them, since like the sohei, they might get the feature without the class.
Drill sergeants could absolutely take the feat. They have weapon training and they're fighters.
Sohei Monk Training would not benefit, as this requires 9 levels of Fighter in order to do so.
The feat also requires 5 levels of Fighter in order to take, as well as the appropriate Class Feature. Although the Sohei counts as having the class feature, he does not count as having the Fighter levels in order to take it. If he has a class ability that says he counts as a Fighter of X level for feat selection, then he could take the Advanced Weapon Training feat.
The VMC would not be able to qualify for the Advanced Weapon Training, as you still need the Fighter levels in order to back it up. Again, if the VMC says you count as a Fighter of X levels, then you would qualify, but if not, then no.
Fighter Archetypes that trade away some (but not all) Weapon Training tiers can qualify, but it depends on how they're traded. The Crossbowman, as an example, would not qualify, whereas a Dragoon who specializes in a single style but is stated to function as the base feature still qualifies. Another example is the Two-Handed Fighter archetype, whose Weapon Training only applies to two-handed weapons (but otherwise functions as the base feature). As long as they meet the pre-requisites (level 9 for base option, level 5 for feat option), then they may select the options.
The only non-Fighter option I know of that would qualify without a doubt would be the Magus' Myrmidarch archetype. Warpriest, if they had some form of Weapon Training, could qualify with their Bonus Feats (6th level Bonus Feat at the minimum), but as far as I know they don't have any archetype.
The intent behind the Advanced Weapon Training options (as far as I can tell) is that they're meant for Fighters, and Fighters only. A lot of the other classes that mooch off of the Fighter's bread and butter shouldn't get their cake if they're eating it too (unless they're giving up a lot of their primary abilities, such as the Myrmidarch archetype). Alexander Augunas can come in and confirm if that's the intent or not, but from the RAW, that's what I conclude.
I know rules wise they don't, I'm just curious what people think of allowing things like the Swashbuckler's Swashbuckler Weapon Training or the Cavern Sniper's (drow fighter archetype) Sniper Training or the Archer Fighter's Expert Archer... and so on to qualify for the advanced weapon training options.
They aren't the same feature, but at the same time the lack of compatibility sometimes makes the specialist archetype worse than the base fighter taking the right AWT.
NO
So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one. A +1 bonus on attack rolls is equivalent to Weapon Focus, while a +1 bonus on damage rolls is equivalent to half a feat because Weapon Specialization is worth +2 damage. This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose. You also get those effective feats whenever your bonus in an existing group rises or when you select a new group.
The PDT consists of smart people; they knew this already when they designed the first fighter archetypes. That's why when you look at almost all of the archetypes that trade weapon training (such as the archer from the Advanced Player's Guide), you'll see one very common design trend: replacing weapon training at an instance-by-instance basis instead of all at once. For example, the archer trades weapon training 1 with something, then weapon training 2, and so on. In most cases, weapon training 1 is replaced with an identical bonus in a specialized weapon group. For example, the archer doesn't gain any instances of weapon training, but he does get the "weapon training bonus" at the normal level, and it progresses as standard for weapon training. This is what the OP noticed when asking if "pseudo weapon training" abilities should qualify for AWTs.
But at every level thereafter, such archetypes ALWAYS give new abilities in place of the other instances of weapon training. The archer, for example, gets safe shot at 9th level, evasive archer at 13th level, and volley at 17th level. While the overall usefulness of these abilities varies, they are all strong effects. You can say that such archetypes have AWT built into them already; they just require you to make specific choices. (And are...
I agree with most of your reasoning but the bolded part leaves me dubious: while it's true that weapon training is a good ability, the best the fighter has, saying it counst as 1 feat and half spread on multiple weapons doesn't really mean much. The way the game works getting a single +1 to hit and +1 dmg isn't that great, especially not at level 5. It's good because you can stack it with all the other feats/traits/magical weapon qualities, not by itself. So, generally speaking, weapon training will work great with ONE weapon anyway, while the rest of the weapon group will be ignored BECAUSE you can't stack feats on all those other weapon types (you put weapon focus and weapon specialization on greatsword, whielding a bastard sword isn't going to be great even if you get an additional +1 to hit and to damage).
Also, weapon training is something a fighter gets at level 5, if it's worth 1 and "half feat" what about studied target for slayer? How much is that worth then? It comes at first lvl, progresses 5 times (and not 4) up to level 20, allows to mark several opponents at once as it progresses, gives you a +1 +1 to hit/damage just like weapon training for one move action but it's not dependant on a weapon (you get disarmed and you lose all your bonuses).Edit: if you ask me weapon training is something the fighter should get earlier than 5th lvl, also I believe feats like weapon focus/weapon specialization and their greater versions should be class features for fighters (getting them at 1st/4th/8th/12th level) applying to the whole weapon group the first weapon chosen for weapon training belongs to (basically when the fighter gets weapon training he also gets those feats not only one one weapon but to all the weapons in its weapon group as long as that's the weapon group chosen for weapon training).
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Swashbucklers do not qualify at all. First, the mechanic is inherently different. Fighters pick multiple groups of weapons as they level up, and what you're fundamentally giving up for an AWT is the option to pick another weapon group. Swashbucklers, in contrast, don't pick ANYTHING with swashbuckler weapon training; the ability comes online at Level 5, applies to a category of weapon, and at subsequent levels that bonus increases. Second, having the words "weapon training" in your name doesn't make you the weapon training class ability any more than the "weapon training" rogue talent qualifies.So, how would the Sohei Monk Weapon Training function?
-It specifies "As the fighter ability"
-You need to pick from multiple groups of weapons as you level up.
-Comes online at 6 and upgrades every 6 levels.To that end does Weapon Training from the Fighter VMC qualify?
Finally would an Archetype like Drill Sergeant, which trades away Weapon Training 2/3/4 but keeps the scaling on Weapon Training 1, be able to grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat?
For all but my first answer, bear in mind that while I write for Paizo, I don't work for them and nothing I say is official beyond the whole, "This is the writer's interpretation" bit. Talk with your GM and be happy.
1) As per Owen, the sohei is one of two non-fighter options that can pick Advanced Weapon Trainings for two of the reasons you mentioned (the first two). The only other archetype that qualifies is the myrmidarch magus. Of those two, the myrmidarch is the only non-fighter archetype in the game that can take the Advanced Weapon Training feat, because it has both weapon training and an effective fighter level for feats.
2) This is sort of an awkward area because the rules for VMC aren't well solidified. VMC does NOT grant you an effective fighter level for the purpose of choosing feats, just fighter class features, so the Advanced Weapon Training feat can't be chosen. You could, however, pick an ADT instead of your weapon training 2 at 19th level.
3) Drill sergeant would meet the prerequisite of the feat, yes, but would be unable to take AWT in exchange for the class feature.
Wait, but Swashbuckler Weapon Training has the words Weapon Training, no?
This FAQ says it doesn't matter what it is called. It could be "whacky macky thing" and it wouldn't matter
What matters is this: Does it have the mechanics of weapon training? Does it reference fighter weapon groups? Does it Have the incremental scaling? All of those pretty much need to be there.
So most likely, swashbuckler would not qualify under that FAQ- you aren't using weapon groups, you are using qualities of various weapons to determine if the class feature applies.
In comparison, sohei weapon training would qualify for this, most likely. Their weapon training closely follows the general mechanics of the fighter's class, just with a smaller selection, slightly different progression, and the extra bit about flurry. The only thing that stops them from qualifying is that their levels don't count as fighter levels (and AWT needs fighter lvl 9; this could end up a bit funny where you can make an lvl 15 multiclass that is sohei 6/fighter 9, with a fighter archetype that trades away weapon training, such as martial master, and you can piecemeal to qualify for AWT).
Now, that bit with swashbuckler and sohei doesn't look like it is too much up for question, but there is the question of what happens with fighter archetypes that specialize in a single weapon group. But the linked FAQ does reference dragoon, which forces you to pick spears as your weapon group, so that is encouraging. No help to 2 handed fighter (who has the exact same problem as swashbuckler), but cool for some of the archetypes.
So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one. A +1 bonus on attack rolls is equivalent to Weapon Focus, while a +1 bonus on damage rolls is equivalent to half a feat because Weapon Specialization is worth +2 damage. This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose. You also get those effective feats whenever your bonus in an existing group rises or when you select a new group.
The PDT consists of smart people; they knew this already when they designed the first fighter archetypes. That's why when you look at almost all of the archetypes that trade weapon training (such as the archer from the Advanced Player's Guide), you'll see one very common design trend: replacing weapon training at an instance-by-instance basis instead of all at once. For example, the archer trades weapon training 1 with something, then weapon training 2, and so on. In most cases, weapon training 1 is replaced with an identical bonus in a specialized weapon group. For example, the archer doesn't gain any instances of weapon training, but he does get the "weapon training bonus" at the normal level, and it progresses as standard for weapon training. This is what the OP noticed when asking if "pseudo weapon training" abilities should qualify for AWTs.
But at every level thereafter, such archetypes ALWAYS give new abilities in place of the other instances of weapon training. The archer, for example, gets safe shot at 9th level, evasive archer at 13th level, and volley at 17th level. While the overall usefulness of these abilities varies, they are all strong effects. You can say that such archetypes have AWT built into them already; they just require you to make specific choices. (And are...
Ugh. I hate reasoning that overlooks the obvious.
First of all, OF COURSE each instance of Weapon Training should be treated seperately. Class features are always supposed to be that way.
Class features are also supposed to scale independently. So, standard Weapon Training 1 should advance by +1 every 4 levels. The fact you get a new weapon group at level 9 is completely separate.
If some fighter variant gets some special ability with a weapon instead of a new and lesser weapon group, then why shouldn't he be able to give that ability up for a Weapon Training Feat? WT1's scaling effect should always stand alone and not be considered. The additional ability stands on its own merits. I realize you hate considering it that way, and want to consider the +1 to all other weapon groups AND +1 to a new weapon group as the same ability...except they aren't, and you shouldn't. Why not?
Because then you realize how crappy Weapon Training and later weapon groups really is.
Now, let me make an analogy. At level 5, you get FIREBALL (of any element you chose at the moment of casting). CL +1. At level 9, your caster level on your Fireball goes from +1 to +2. You then get to select a new damage spell (Let's say Cone of Cold, any element)! This new spell, however, is cast at only CL+1.
This repeats at 13 and 17.
The low level spell you picked first is the most powerful, although also the one with the most limitations, and is also the one you'll use the most over your career. It's entirely likely that you'll bend all your efforts to having an awesome fireball and mostly ignore the other damage spells you get as irrelevant, since they are all basically doing the same thing with different names and forms.
Which is exactly what happens. So, of the 4 classes, the fighter is the only one that gets a DECREASINGLY POWERFUL AND REDUNDANT class ability as he levels.
And that's not even considering that the weapon Spec Feat ties you into one weapon, and makes you ignore the rest of the group, much like spell specialization turns you into a fireball spec and makes you ignore Cone of cold. Once your bonuses are tied to a single weapon, the rest of the group is IRRELEVANT.
Seriously, if Weapon Groups were ONE WEAPON, would the net effect of the ability change much? The answer is...nope. You'd just pick the weapon you'd normally use. Exactly as people do now.
This is especially relevant if you have weapon spec. I don't CARE about the rest of the heavy swords group if I'm specced in the scimitar.
Your logic that weapon groups are powerful is faulty and, I have to say, DUMB. By your logic, Smiting, Favored Enemy, and Raging must be incomprehensibly mighty because they apply to ANY WEAPON THE CHARACTER PICKS UP...far broader and stronger then any weapon group! Heck, you don't even need to be PROFICIENT to gain those bonuses! Spear, mace, sword, shield, nekode, nunchaku...these bonuses apply to every weapon in every weapon group! They must be incredibly overpowered!!!!!!!
Right.
Lastly -
Level 1 Ranger - Pick a favored Enemy. Gain +2/+2 against them.
Level 1 Barbarian - Rage. Gain major combat bonuses.
Level 1 Paladin - Smite. Gain Th/DMG bonus against your chosen evil enemy.
Level 1 Fighter - HAS NO CLASS FEATURE GRANTING A COMBAT BONUS at level 1.
And don't say 'Weapon Focus' because anyone can take it, and it's not a class feature. Weapon Training should have started at level 1. Period. The fighter, the class with no magic or supernatural abilities, doesn't gain any combat bonuses until level 5.
ROGUES GET A BONUS AT LEVEL 1.!!!
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Lastly, I don't know which of you guys thought up the progression for getting WMT feats, but did you actually look at WHEN a fighter gets them?
Let's remember that the majority of the game is played before 10th level, most people never really get past 12th.
Your FIRST WMT FEAT is at 5th!!! (1/5 levels) And you have to burn a general feat to use it.
Your second one - is at 9th when you can swap out WMT2!(Swap out WT for a WMT feat). In other words, likely half the character life of the character is gone, and he finally gets his second WMT feat.
5 of the 7 WMT feats a fighter can gain are only gained at 10th level and up. (5,9,10,13,15,17 and 20, to be precise). That's...dumb. Just really, really dumb.
Unless you are a Weapon Master fighter archetype, who can buy WMT feats with fighter bonus feats or general feats, starting at level 3, and can even retrain feats to add them at 4 and 8, and so potentially end up with 20 WMT feats.
Seriously? Who signed off on this?
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So, for the record, yeah, the WMT feats are things the fighter needs, and should have had all along.
But the way you are making them accessible? Dumb. Fighters aren't even going to be able to take and use them unless they are Weapon Master archetypes until late high levels.
And this view that Weapon Groups are valuable? that has to go. Weapon Groups are not valuable, else the class features of the other melee classes that work with ALL WEAPONS are horrendously valuable.
And this idea that giving Fighters class benefits that got WEAKER AND WEAKER by LEVEL was a Good Thing has to go, too. A 17th level ability giving a weapon group +1 th/dmg. Yeah, that's a good, high level Class Feature, all right.
==Aelryinth
@Aelryinth: I agreee with your reasoning (as evident from my post above) if not with your tone, although I can undestand the frustration.
It needs to be pointed out that any fighter can get access to Advanced Weapon Training options through the Advanced weapon Fighting feat (you spend a combat feat and gain an AWF option although this can only happen after 5th level and then another time after 5 fighter levels and so on until the 20th level, so 4 times max) though. So mixing that with sacrificing weapon training advancements you could get up to 7 AWT options (you don't need that many though, only 3-4 are really worth it IMO).
That is one of the WEAK POINTS of this fix, Rogar, not the strong ones.
It means that you get one feat at 5, 10,15, and 20, and then 9, 13 and 17th. For 90% of the games, that means a fighter will only get 1 halfway through their career (burning a general feat to get the first one), and the last one at 10th level shortly before they stop playing and go to a new campaign.
Just looking at the feat list, I can see at least 5 of those things that EVERY FIGHTER SHOULD HAVE.
If you want the elective stuff that's cool and flavorful, but not NECCESSARY?? You'll never get it.
Bah.
==Aelryinth
I think the rules are pretty clear that you're SOL unless you're a regular fighter with weapon training features to spare, but this isn't the rules question forum. I was mostly curious about what people thought of giving classes and archetypes that legally can't access AWTs access to AWTs.
In particular it feels like a lot of the specialist archetypes (and classes, in the case of the swashbuckler) that focus on specific combat styles might end up being outright worse than a regular fighter beacuse of all the new things you can do with weapon training.
And I know about the feat, but as mentioned in the FAQ lemeres linked a lot of the specialist archetypes never qualify in the first place and since they never qualify either it leaves me increasingly convinced that Swashbucklers are worse swashbucklers than appropriately built fighters now (especially with the bravery upgrade blowing charmed life out of the water).
Kind of a strange FAQ. I know the logic behind it but it's weird nonetheless that expert arched doesn't qualify and spear training does despite the two being functionally identical.
Usually Paizo is fighting against overly literal RAW rather than supporting it.
And from a fluffy non-mechanical perspective the idea that the specialist archer fighter can't get "advanced training" with their chosen weapon seems wrong.
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That is one of the WEAK POINTS of this fix, Rogar, not the strong ones.
It means that you get one feat at 5, 10,15, and 20, and then 9, 13 and 17th. For 90% of the games, that means a fighter will only get 1 halfway through their career (burning a general feat to get the first one), and the last one at 10th level shortly before they stop playing and go to a new campaign.
Just looking at the feat list, I can see at least 5 of those things that EVERY FIGHTER SHOULD HAVE.
If you want the elective stuff that's cool and flavorful, but not NECCESSARY?? You'll never get it.
Bah.
==Aelryinth
The problem is without changing the class fighters have to pay in order to get those options, they could not give them to fighters "for free" even if it would have made sense considering the state of the class compared to pratically all others. And that's why I think the Weapon Master Handbook, while adding a lot of flavourful and interesting new stuff could not really improve the situation of the fighter that much.
Barring OP options (something like what happened with the barbarian after Ultimate Combat when it got pounce, even if it was probably intended to work only with unarmed attacks but ened up working with everything, greatswords included) the book could not do miracles. The only way to improve the fighter is... to redo the class and admit it's currently underpowered compared with most of the others (something that can only happen with a new unchained book or PF 2.0).
On that, we agree. Unless they come out with a Bravery mastery's handbook, and actually start handing out reasonable class features at THOSE levels instead of insisting +1 more Bravery is a class feature.
==Aelryinth
I think the rules are pretty clear that you're SOL unless you're a regular fighter with weapon training features to spare, but this isn't the rules question forum. I was mostly curious about what people thought of giving classes and archetypes that legally can't access AWTs access to AWTs.
In particular it feels like a lot of the specialist archetypes (and classes, in the case of the swashbuckler) that focus on specific combat styles might end up being outright worse than a regular fighter beacuse of all the new things you can do with weapon training.
And I know about the feat, but it still seems like a losing battle for the specialist fighter... and leaves me increasingly convinced that Swashbucklers are worse swashbucklers than appropriately built fighters now (especially with the bravery upgrade blowing charmed life out of the water).
IN all honesty, there should never have been a need for a swashbuckler.
A swashbuckler would properly be 3-5 correctly configured feats, no more. It should have been handled inside the fighter class to begin with.
So a fighter class that can handle it? that's a Good Thing.
==Aelryinth
Maybe not, but it does exist so it should probably be able to do its job. Like the specialist fighter archetypes that get non weapon training weapon training.
Also remember that sometimes Paizo "fixes" discrepancies like that in bad ways. Daring Champion got some pretty heavy handed nerfs for simply being better at executing a concept than the Swashbuckler too.
Well, everyone agreed that the swashbuckler was MUCH better at being a swashie then a fighter was.
Now that the WMT has come out, what's changed so much?
at level 5, the fighter can finally get Bravery to all Will saves. YAY?
At level 9, the fighter can apply his rapier spec to everything in the fencing group. Doesn't help with guns, you'll note. Wahoo, his fencing group is at +2. So dangerous!
At level 10, the fighter can grab another WMT feat.
So, you've a 10th level swashbuckler. How is the fighter so much better at this point, given you've got panache and he doesn't? I mean, the fighter has to pay for Weapon Finesse, of all things, and his armor training is worthless at this point, unless he's a swashie running around in plate armor.
==Aelryinth
@ Lemeres: Two-Handed Fighter archetype is eligible for AWT. Their Weapon Training entry says "As the fighter class feature," which is no different than the Sohei wording. If Sohei is eligible, then so is Two-Handed Fighter.
@ Aelryinth: Since when are Bonus Feats not class features? I didn't realize that Rangers and Monks and Wizards and Sorcerers apparently had all of these dead levels where they get absolutely nothing in the way of class features.
Saying the Fighter doesn't get any combat bonus, and yet he receives a Bonus Feat related to Combat, is a bald-faced lie. Saying the Fighter's benefits are garbage compared to other classes is a more accurate statement, since the best things that he could get with that Bonus Feat at 1st level is Weapon Focus (compared to the other options, not that great, and everyone can take it too), Power Attack (de-facto option, everyone would have this at this level too), Furious Focus (decent option, but does lose its value past level 6, and requires Power Attack to use), and that's about it.
In comparison, Sneak Attack (situational, sucks anyway), Smite (situational; good, but highly limited unless properly archetyped), Rage (overall best option), and Favored Enemy (situational, but otherwise a solid choice) the Bonus Feat is more constant (albeit weaker), whereas the others are mostly situational options that can only really be utilized if the player has astute system mastery and street smarts.
In regards to the Swashbuckler arguments, Dexterity isn't better than going plain Strength, UCRogue is evidence of this. The only thing a Swashie has over a UCRogue is Full BAB. So that, right out of the gate, leaves the Swashie at a disadvantage compared to a Strength build.
The Swashie is a Crit Fisher, which really only synergizes with TWF (or some other form of getting a ridiculous amount of attacks with high static modifiers to attack and damage). Slashing Grace put a stop to those shenanigans, and Natural Weapons don't really do much since their multiplier sucks anyway.
Fencing Grace could be allowed, but you'd need Effortless Laces in order to really pull off being able to TWF effectively with them, and that costs quite a bit of money; money that could be better spent elsewhere for the given level.
You're also going to be more feat starved, since you have to invest feats into things like Fencing Grace in order to just be viable, and unless you're human, you don't get that until level 3. Carrying Capacity also runs a major issue as well until you get all Mithril/Darkleaf equipment and a Bag of Holding.
The only thing that saves the Swashie being outscaled by standard Strength martials is being able to add his class level to damage rolls by spending Panache, but we know that A. It's a finite source, meaning he can't do so on absolutely every attack, B. It scales off of Charisma, which is generally a dump-stat for Martials, and C. It doesn't work against some of the more common forms of enemies, so it's comparably reliable to Sneak Attack.
Is AWT a step in the right direction? Gods yes. Is it enough to fix an otherwise sub-par and broken class? Not exactly, since this solution only applies to those Fighter types who don't lose Weapon Training, and the only other way to fix Fighters is to just outright destroy the original and start from scratch. I don't know why you got your hopes all uppity about a book that does what it can to fix a class that's broken beyond proper repair.
Bonus feats related to combat are worth at best half a true class feature, i.e. Weapon Focus is worth less then HALF of weapon training +1.
it's not a class feature, it's an extra add-on. like a spell slot for a spellcaster. Making him qualify for the feat is just dumping more crap on him.
No, a true Class feature at level 1. Weapon Training, +1 damage with weapon x would have been fine. Couldn't even do that. 1-2E, fighters could take Weapon Spec right out of the gate...+1/+2 dmg and that extra attack/2 rds, and later spend a weapon prof to up it to +3/+3.
Fighters were great right at level 1. I don't know why they force the suckage on fighters and no other combat class. They ALL have class features that create damage.
Remember that you are comparing a swashie to a finesse fighter, not a Str fighter. Comparing to a Str fighter is kind of crossing style lines, no?
==Aelryinth
Bonus feats related to combat are worth at best half a true class feature, i.e. Weapon Focus is worth less then HALF of weapon training +1.
it's not a class feature, it's an extra add-on. like a spell slot for a spellcaster. Making him qualify for the feat is just dumping more crap on him.
No, a true Class feature at level 1. Weapon Training, +1 damage with weapon x would have been fine. Couldn't even do that. 1-2E, fighters could take Weapon Spec right out of the gate...+1/+2 dmg and that extra attack/2 rds, and later spend a weapon prof to up it to +3/+3.
Fighters were great right at level 1. I don't know why they force the suckage on fighters and no other combat class. They ALL have class features that create damage.
Remember that you are comparing a swashie to a finesse fighter, not a Str fighter. Comparing to a Str fighter is kind of crossing style lines, no?
==Aelryinth
I guess Weapon Finesse as a free feat for the Dex-based Martial is "half a feature?" I can see how it does, since the other half would be adding Dexterity to damage, but that too is (technically) a feat, but not all feats are created equal in power, nor is their power level the same at all times.
Weapon Finesse on a 12 Dexterity (14 Strength) Martial is downright useless. An inverse of that, and it's no better than Weapon Focus. But a 20 Dexterity (12 Strength) Martial? +4 to hit right there. The same is also true for Slashing/Fencing Grace, except the benefits are for Damage instead, which if we use Power Attack/Weapon Specialization as the Standard, means those feats in some instances are useless/worse than the standard, sometimes equal to, and in others blows the standard out of the water. And that's assuming 1st level starting out.
These benefits only scale as you apply more Dexterity, and not to mention you have the option of outright dumping Strength to shore up other statistics for an option that's like Power Attack (but doesn't have its requirements), i.e. Piranha Strike. And the best part is, you don't actually lose out on effective damage.
The expectation that a Bonus Feat (or a Class Feature in General) should have the same amount of power as every other class (and its features) is an impossible standard to keep, especially when Bonus Feats (for Fighters, anyway) follow the same rules as Feats in General, which are a whole separate standard of power. On top of that, their primary class features become useless half-way through (Armor Training), and don't really synergize with Pathfinder's specialization gameplay style (Weapon Training). AWT helps shore that up, but like you said, it doesn't completely eliminate another problem that will be demonstrated below:
Classes with Bonus Feats like Monks and Rangers and Warpriests, who have a set list that don't need to meet pre-requisites, or count as something they don't normally count for are going to certainly be more powerful than your typical feats since they can be taken at points that could not otherwise be normally taken; that is the essence of a true class feature, and one that can be properly tied in to Feats. The Fighter lacks this, because apparently there is Strength in the number of feats a Fighter has. Clearly, Paizo has never heard of the phrase "Gorilla with the Strength of 10 Men," because the Gorilla with the Strength of 10 Men is going to be infinitely better than the Strength of the 10 Men themselves. Quantity is nothing. Quality is everything.
@ Lemeres: Two-Handed Fighter archetype is eligible for AWT. Their Weapon Training entry says "As the fighter class feature," which is no different than the Sohei wording. If Sohei is eligible, then so is Two-Handed Fighter.
...
In regards to the Swashbuckler arguments, Dexterity isn't better than going plain Strength, UCRogue is evidence of this. The only thing a Swashie has over a UCRogue is Full BAB. So that, right out of the gate, leaves the Swashie at a disadvantage compared to a Strength build.
The Swashie is a Crit Fisher, which really only synergizes with TWF (or some other form of getting a ridiculous amount of attacks with high static modifiers to attack and damage). Slashing Grace put a stop to those shenanigans, and Natural Weapons don't really do much since their...
Hmmm...I will at least agree that it is a bit hard to tell if it qualifies. The difference I am spotting is that it doesn't use weapon groups.
...or does it? I always read it as 'works with 2 handed weapons' (in the same way that swashbucklers work with 1 handed and light piercing weapons), but maybe it is 'pick a weapon group, and this only works on the two handed weapons in that group. In that light, then absolutely it qualifies- it uses the base mechanics (and referennces them) with a slight variation added on top.
The general point stands- just throw in archers instead of 2 handed fighters.
On other matters, I will say taht swashbucklers have their own advantages, but not in the ways people were looking for.
I agree that people overestimate precise strike, but I view it as more of mechanically supporting a flavor- It seems like its scaling is more meant to allow 1 handed/1 weapon to compete with 2 handing (the comparison is against a full martial with str and power attack bonuses vs. swashbuckler with power attack/piranha strike). It just lets the subpar style compete at most levels- never surpass traditional strength builds.
What it does offer is AC. They can go off of dex, sure, but I am more interested in what they do with that free hand- they can use a buckler.
Not sure how well I can supprot TWF swashbucklers. That is a lot of resources just to say 'oh, you are as good as a str build with a double weapon'. I would prefer to use the offhand to make myself an AC tank.
CHA is...kind of fine. IT can be added to saves in a pinch with the class feature (read: keep it for will saves, cause those are the worst).
Overall, it is just a fightery thing with damage on par with 2 handing, good AC, and a couple tricks like parries. That and enough skill points and social skills (with cha boost) to stay relevant.. yeah, it works.
I guess Weapon Finesse as a free feat for the Dex-based Martial is "half a feature?" I can see how it does, since the other half would be adding Dexterity to damage, but that too is (technically) a feat, but not all feats are created equal in power, nor is their power level the same at all times.Weapon Finesse on a 12 Dexterity (14 Strength) Martial is downright useless. An inverse of that, and it's no better than Weapon Focus. But a 20 Dexterity (12 Strength) Martial? +4 to hit right there. The same is also true for Slashing/Fencing Grace, except the benefits are for Damage instead, which if we use Power Attack/Weapon Specialization as the Standard, means those feats in some instances are useless/worse than the standard, sometimes equal to, and in others blows the standard out of the water. And that's assuming 1st level starting out.
These benefits only scale as you apply more Dexterity, and not to mention you have the option of outright dumping Strength to shore up other statistics for an option that's like Power Attack (but doesn't have its requirements), i.e. Piranha Strike. And...
Using ANYTHING that uses Stats as a pumper is bad, bad comparisons. Stats break everything.
Weapon Finesse is awesome if you've got high Dex. In all other cases, it's irrelevant. But trying to say it ever sucks, is like saying a Paladin's Divine Grace sucks. It's there. It's awesome, its pumpable, it's got no top end. The only way it sucks is if YOU MAKE IT SUCK.
So, if you've got a Dex build, Finesse is awesome. That's all there is to it.
Is it worth a class feature? It would be IF IT STACKED ON TOP OF STRENGTH. You know, like Divine Grace stacks.
But no, Weapon Finesse just swaps this for that for one specific purpose. It is 'nice', certainly better then a fixed bonus of +1, but it's just leveraging an existing ability to replace another, and so its 'benefit' is reduced thereby.
Is it worth being the only class feature of a class for one level? especially a dex-based combatant? No. Because the feat is REQUIRED to make a dex-viable melee combatant. It's not 'superior' to strength as is, it just evens up one of the lines.
Now, if weapon finesse did both TH/DMG at one time, OR it stacked on top of strength...THAT would be a full strength class feature, similar to what Divine Grace is. Powerful, versatile, and scaling by level, and because it's a stat, with technically no top end.
==Aelryinth
Here's the full entry:
As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons.
The entry doesn't make a distinction of being forced to pick one sort of weapon group, nor does it have any separate scale. It's not much different than the Dragoon archetype in those regards, especially since this doesn't limit my ability to select Bows as a weapon group, for example. But since Bows aren't two-handed melee weapons, the bonus would not apply if you used them. If you picked Heavy Blades and used a Longsword, either one-handed or in two hands, it would not apply, but a Greatsword, which is a Heavy Blade that is also a two-handed melee weapon, would receive the benefits.
You're joking, right? They don't even offer proper AC.
Assuming equal armors, you're looking at an average of +8(+10) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +2 Armor Bonus (Leather Armor) compared to the common Full Plate with only a +1(+3) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +9 Armor Bonus. Adding them both up equates to 10 AC total. Factoring in things like Enhancement Bonuses would only really ramp up the minimum numbers without creating any actual difference. The only difference between these 2 armor styles is that one offers 8/10 Touch AC and 2 Flat-Footed AC, whereas the other offers 1/3 Touch AC, and 9 Flat-Footed AC. A Strength Martial can easily fit a Full Plate's Dexterity requirements with ease, whereas a focused Dexterity Martial will have all of that excess Dexterity not apply to his AC.
The only time a Dexterity Build would win out in terms of Armor would be if he has a +11 Dexterity modifier with a Haramaki, and until then, he would be at best equal, if not losing out. Did I also mention weight can be a big problem?
You're joking, right? They don't even offer proper AC.
Assuming equal armors, you're looking at an average of +8(+10) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +2 Armor Bonus (Leather Armor) compared to the common Full Plate with only a +1(+3) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +9 Armor Bonus. Adding them both up equates to 10 AC total. Factoring in things like Enhancement Bonuses would only really ramp up the minimum numbers without creating any actual difference. The only difference between these 2 armor styles is that one offers 8/10 Touch AC and 2 Flat-Footed AC, whereas the other offers 1/3 Touch AC, and 9 Flat-Footed AC. A Strength Martial can easily fit a Full Plate's Dexterity requirements with ease, whereas a focused Dexterity Martial will have all of that excess Dexterity not apply to his AC.
The only time a Dexterity Build would win out in terms of Armor would be if he has a +11 Dexterity modifier with a Haramaki, and until then, he would be at best equal, if not losing out. Did I also mention weight can be a big problem?
Yes, light armor sucks. Which is why I would avoid it. It is only a single trait for anyone to grab mithral breastplates without penalty, and those work with the swashbuckler class features.
A mithral breastplate gets an effective +11 (armor+max dex- very relavent for swashbucklers, since they might hits that once they get a +2 belt) vs. the fullplate's +10. Sure, you can make the fullplate mithral, but that costs 5,000 more. And despite that, the differences are enough that adding the buckler makes it mostly moot.
So this comes down to the two enhancement slots (which makes it much cheaper to get good AC, and higher maximum for AC enhancement), along with the scaling bonus to AC from the class (which still applies since mithral medium works like light armor)
Later, you can switch over to the ultra light armors when your dex bonus makes the replacement. And then retrain the trait, I would imagine. And their flat footed AC is fine, since they are in medium armor and with a shield. And we all know their touch AC is good.
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So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one...This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose.
Wov. just....Wov. That's terrible. How can Owen, 15 years into the development of 3.X, still not be immediately aware that X=1 for almost every case, 2 in rare outliers, regardless of the number of weapons in a group?
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Wov. just....Wov. That's terrible. How can Owen, 15 years into the development of 3.X, still not be immediately aware that X=1 for almost every case, 2 in rare outliers, regardless of the number of weapons in a group?So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one...This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose.
In complete agreement here. As a fan of melee and someone who plays fighters on occasion, I can count on zero hands the amount of times I've used a second weapon from my weapon group that wasn't my primary weapon. I don't think I've even ever considered wielding a second weapon from a weapon group, especially since 3.X is all about specializing in one special hunk of steel and telling the rest to sod off.
It is NOT 1.5 feats times X, it is 1.5 feats, and said 1.5 feats aren't even taken after you hit a certain level of optimization unless you need them as prereqs due to the value of feats that let you do other things being so much higher. It reminds me of something Mark said in my thread when I was talking about designing things, about how 'editors can sometimes see the best in things where in application it isn't always the case'. This definitely feels like that because rarely in play would the fact that these bonuses applied to a group of weapons and not just one ever factor in for me.
Like all the hype over AWT is BECAUSE the lacking value of regular weapon training which is a very boring feature. Props to AWT, but let's not pretend WT was anything to write home about or god forbid, actually sell the class on.
Wov. just....Wov. That's terrible. How can Owen, 15 years into the development of 3.X, still not be immediately aware that X=1 for almost every case, 2 in rare outliers, regardless of the number of weapons in a group?So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one...This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose.
That statement COULD work if you used some optional rules. A fighter with the full Ascetic style line and using the Automatic Bonus Progression could go all unarmed feats and pick whatever monk weapons tickle their fancy that day. In a normal game though I totally agree that they seem to be greatly overvaluing the ability. granting X to 1 or 2 weapons isn't functionally less powerful than giving it to 20 as you can't hope to keep up your support for more than that 1-2 weapons in terms of feats, magic, ect.
That statement COULD work if you used some optional rules. A fighter with the full Ascetic style line and using the Automatic Bonus Progression could go all unarmed feats and pick whatever monk weapons tickle their fancy that day. In a normal game though I totally agree that they seem to be greatly overvaluing the ability. granting X to 1 or 2 weapons isn't functionally less powerful than giving it to 20 as you can't hope to keep up your support for more than that 1-2 weapons in terms of feats, magic, ect.Wov. just....Wov. That's terrible. How can Owen, 15 years into the development of 3.X, still not be immediately aware that X=1 for almost every case, 2 in rare outliers, regardless of the number of weapons in a group?So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one...This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose.
AND if you really want to get the same feats for 2 different weapons you are not going to choose weapons in the same weapon group. For example, if your primary weapon is a greatsword you are not going to choose weapon focus/specialization for a lonsword, you might decide you want to be a decent switch hitter and invest those feats on a composite longbow, but if you are choosing another heavy blade you are wasting feats.
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Technically, as a play tester for 3.0 and someone who wrote Dragon articles for it before it was released. I'm *16* years into 3.x design.
If I were to redesign the fighter form scratch, it'd likely look different. That's not going to happen in a Player Companion book, which isn't the place for a top-down redesign of the rules.
Advanced Weapon Mastery was a design space I thought had been underused, and I wrote a lot of guidelines to Alex about how to approach it, and when I developed his work I got it exactly where I wanted it. Alex did a great job writing to the outline, and I look forward to working with him in upcoming books.
Alex's representation of what the rules are designed the way they are isn't complete, and that's okay. These weren't created to fix every problem every fan of martial combatants has with their favorite design. It was presented to show ways that different groups of fighters, who are supposed to be our premiere weapon users, can specialize into weapon masters, while giving fighter characters fun new ways to play. I'm quite satisfied with how it accomplishes that. If you want tons of Advanced Weapon Training options added to power-up fighters until they reach a level you like you're welcome to do that in your own campaigns, but that's not what I had them designed to do. I'm happy to explore interesting design space in Player Companion books, but I'm never trying to *fix* a core class. That isn't what these books are supposed to do, and that isn't my role as their developer.
Also, please consider your tone when talking about the work Alex, or any freelancer, produces for us. If you make it unpleasant for someone to write game material for you, it'll be much harder for me to put together teams of good writers, and thus harder to oversee the creation of good books.
From how I understand this all, the Advanced Weapon Training options are basically mini archetypes for Fighters. having a diminishing scaling weapon training bonus sucks but pound for pound its numerically powerful since you're basically getting 9 feats in the form of Weapon Training 2-4. So to compensate without messing up the math, archetypes will routinely give up weapon training 2-3 for other things and the AWTs function the same way only they're individual abilities.
Although by that logic, losing weapon training 2-4 and gaining 9 combat feats is an even trade. imagine a fighter with 9 more feats.
You're joking, right? They don't even offer proper AC.
Assuming equal armors, you're looking at an average of +8(+10) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +2 Armor Bonus (Leather Armor) compared to the common Full Plate with only a +1(+3) Dexterity Modifier maximum with a +9 Armor Bonus. Adding them both up equates to 10 AC total. Factoring in things like Enhancement Bonuses would only really ramp up the minimum numbers without creating any actual difference. The only difference between these 2 armor styles is that one offers 8/10 Touch AC and 2 Flat-Footed AC, whereas the other offers 1/3 Touch AC, and 9 Flat-Footed AC. A Strength Martial can easily fit a Full Plate's Dexterity requirements with ease, whereas a focused Dexterity Martial will have all of that excess Dexterity not apply to his AC.
The only time a Dexterity Build would win out in terms of Armor would be if he has a +11 Dexterity modifier with a Haramaki, and until then, he would be at best equal, if not losing out. Did I also mention weight can be a big problem?
Yes, light armor sucks. Which is why I would avoid it. It is only a single trait for anyone to grab mithral breastplates without penalty, and those work with the swashbuckler class features.
A mithral breastplate gets an effective +11 (armor+max dex- very relavent for swashbucklers, since they might hits that once they get a +2 belt) vs. the fullplate's +10. Sure, you can make the fullplate mithral, but that costs 5,000 more. And despite that, the differences are enough that adding the buckler makes it mostly moot.
So this comes down to the two enhancement slots (which makes it much cheaper to get good AC, and higher maximum for AC enhancement), along with the scaling bonus to AC from the class (which still applies since mithral medium works like light armor)
Later, you can switch over to the ultra light armors when your dex bonus makes the replacement. And then retrain the trait, I would imagine. And their flat footed AC is...
Going Mithril Full Plate would be a smart decision anyway. There's a Mithril Full Plate of Speed +1 unique item that's pretty damn snazzy to have as a Strength Fighter, and most Heavy armored Martials will have at least a 12 Dexterity, sometimes more if they invest in Combat Reflexes, and possibly have a +2 Dexterity belt on top of Strength and/or Constitution, so they aren't really missing out as much. With Endurance, you can sleep in it, and with Armor Training I, you can move around normally with it.
The trait does lose its value once you replace the breastplate though; +2 Initiative would be more favorable, or even +1 Fortitude saves if they're bad enough. There are other equally good traits to select besides an ACP reduction that, as you mentioned, would eventually become pointless. Also, I'm not sure if Ultimate Campaign allows retraining of traits (unless you got it through the Additional Traits feat).
Being able to enhance two subjects toward the same goal for cheaper prices does give it the leg up, I'll admit, but I will say again that an optimized Martial wouldn't really notice the difference. I didn't realize that Swashbucklers get a class feature that adds a bonus to AC though, which one is that?
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From how I understand this all, the Advanced Weapon Training options are basically mini archetypes for Fighters. having a diminishing scaling weapon training bonus sucks but pound for pound its numerically powerful since you're basically getting 9 feats in the form of Weapon Training 2-4. So to compensate without messing up the math, archetypes will routinely give up weapon training 2-3 for other things and the AWTs function the same way only they're individual abilities.
Although by that logic, losing weapon training 2-4 and gaining 9 combat feats is an even trade. imagine a fighter with 9 more feats.
A fighter with 9 more feats wouldn't really be that much more impressive.
Generally when selecting feats, you're taking the best ones for your design goals ASAP (so for a lot of people, power attack/point blank shot at 1st level and such), meaning the the value of a feat drops according to the number of feats given.
While for certain feat intensive styles like archery/sword and board twf/etc, this is useful, we eventually hit that wall (be it at 5th level or 15th) where we've gotten all we can from feats to help that style out. At that point, we go searching to other feat chains, but again we're later level taking feat chains that are designed to give us benefits that a lower level character would have.
A sword and board TWF who by 12th level is starting to pick up the archery chain isn't adding to their base strength, but increasing their other options at a slower pace, they're grabbing something that's all together weaker due to how feat chains work, so it's not as valuable to them as the initial surge of feats were.
I straight up LOVE some early game feat help with complex styles (gunning being one of them), but as things go on, the things you need feats for decrease, so they're not nearly as valuable.
I'll admit the tone of the post I quoted was a bit harsh, and I can apologize for that. I will also state that I still agree that weapon training isn't worth 1.5 times X feats for the reasons stated earlier. I mean I'm enjoying AWT jazz a lot, it's got people talking about the core fighter for the first time in forever and not just an archetype chimera (not that I have problems with those), something that I do think is awesome.
When I even first heard about AWT, I thought they WERE archetypes (neat ones too), although seeing what they are I think they're a great addition to the game to help spice up what is in all honestly probably the MOST bland class in the game. Personally I'm hoping for a nice selection of advanced Armor (maybe bravery too) Training since as it stands, Armor Training is also underwhelming, and I'd like to see what the design team can do with that design space since AWT seem to be doing so well.
Personally I'm a little sad this content isn't in a hard cover book since some GMs are so iffy on allowing player companion content into their games. But QSS on that, I think AWTs are a solid inclusion into the Fighter's toolbox, and like the player companion itself as a whole for giving a lot of fun new options.
From how I understand this all, the Advanced Weapon Training options are basically mini archetypes for Fighters. having a diminishing scaling weapon training bonus sucks but pound for pound its numerically powerful since you're basically getting 9 feats in the form of Weapon Training 2-4. So to compensate without messing up the math, archetypes will routinely give up weapon training 2-3 for other things and the AWTs function the same way only they're individual abilities.
Although by that logic, losing weapon training 2-4 and gaining 9 combat feats is an even trade. imagine a fighter with 9 more feats.
But they don't lose weapon training bonuses, they only lose the group selections as far as I read it. It says "The fighter’s weapon training bonus still increases for weapons from all fighter weapon groups he previously selected with weapon training."
So he would subtract the ability to select a new group, but instead gain the ability to select, say, Armed Bravery, which applies as long as he has his weapon drawn and in-hand.
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AND if you really want to get the same feats for 2 different weapons you are not going to choose weapons in the same weapon group. For example, if your primary weapon is a greatsword you are not going to choose weapon focus/specialization for a lonsword, you might decide you want to be a decent switch hitter and invest those feats on a composite longbow, but if you are choosing another heavy blade you are wasting feats.That statement COULD work if you used some optional rules. A fighter with the full Ascetic style line and using the Automatic Bonus Progression could go all unarmed feats and pick whatever monk weapons tickle their fancy that day. In a normal game though I totally agree that they seem to be greatly overvaluing the ability. granting X to 1 or 2 weapons isn't functionally less powerful than giving it to 20 as you can't hope to keep up your support for more than that 1-2 weapons in terms of feats, magic, ect.Wov. just....Wov. That's terrible. How can Owen, 15 years into the development of 3.X, still not be immediately aware that X=1 for almost every case, 2 in rare outliers, regardless of the number of weapons in a group?So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this:
Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one...This means that your first weapon training is effectively worth 1.5 feats times X, where X is equal to the number of weapons in the weapon group that you chose.
Some groups can manage different types of fighting. Take thrown. It's got 80' ranged weapons, light, one handed and two handed weapons in it. You can also do well with heavy blades [30' thrown, two handed, one handed and sawtoothed sabre makes a fine off hand weapon].
Natural is the only group that works like Owen and Alexander think. It's tactic for getting better is to collect extra types of natural attack through various means and WT automatically buffs them and your magic 'weapon' also buffs them.
Owen: I've pretty much only seen good things being said about Alex's work. I know I have no complaints. The book was full of good stuff. The only think I see a disagreement/discontent about was about "So Owen and I had this conversation when I was first writing the AWTs, and what we basically both agreed on is this: Weapon training itself is FAR more powerful than people give it credit for, mostly because its power is spread across multiple weapons rather than condensed onto one."
So far there seems to be very little agreement with that post, myself included. IMO saying that greatly overestimates the abilities impact in the game concerning multiple weapons. Powerful returns to a single weapon seem to quickly diminish the more weapons you have active so I'm clearly not seeing what you and Alex are.
Being able to enhance two subjects toward the same goal for cheaper prices does give it the leg up, I'll admit, but I will say again that an optimized Martial wouldn't really notice the difference. I didn't realize that Swashbucklers get a class feature that adds a bonus to AC though, which one is that?
Ah, this argument was because nimble was forgotten. Fair enough, without nimble, their AC is more middling. That is why it was added.
Yes, nimble is a +1 to +5 dodge bonus. Stripped straight from gunslinger. Light armor or no armor only (or mithral medium, which you might do for until higher levels when you switch to haramaki). Meant to eventually bridge the gap between light and heavy armos, and then all the over AC stuff overtakes it.
Overall, I see swashbuckler as a class that makes it VERY unappealing to attack it (with high AC and parry/riposte), and enough attack that it can't just be ignored. That, and enough uses of cha to saves that you should be able to cover a few will saves... it does alright for itself.
Also of note- a smart GM would make you feel good about yourself by throwing mooks at you in order to run the same gambit used against reach builds (ie- encourage you to use up your off turn attack on a useless target so the big bulky ones can do what they want without reprisal). Much easier to do since it is just an immediate action rather than trying to eat up all of combat reflexes on a polearm user. Overall, it makes you feel good (your high AC gets used, and you get to do off turn damage), but the GM doesn't have to have his big shiny boss fall onto your sword.
Advanced Weapon Mastery was a design space I thought had been underused, and I wrote a lot of guidelines to Alex about how to approach it, and when I developed his work I got it exactly where I wanted it. Alex did a great job writing to the outline, and I look forward to working with him in upcoming books.
Aw, you make me blush, Owen!
Swashbucklers do not qualify at all. First, the mechanic is inherently different. Fighters pick multiple groups of weapons as they level up, and what you're fundamentally giving up for an AWT is the option to pick another weapon group. Swashbucklers, in contrast, don't pick ANYTHING with swashbuckler weapon training; the ability comes online at Level 5, applies to a category of weapon, and at subsequent levels that bonus increases. Second, having the words "weapon training" in your name doesn't make you the weapon training class ability any more than the "weapon training" rogue talent qualifies.So, how would the Sohei Monk Weapon Training function?
-It specifies "As the fighter ability"
-You need to pick from multiple groups of weapons as you level up.
-Comes online at 6 and upgrades every 6 levels.To that end does Weapon Training from the Fighter VMC qualify?
Finally would an Archetype like Drill Sergeant, which trades away Weapon Training 2/3/4 but keeps the scaling on Weapon Training 1, be able to grab the Advanced Weapon Training feat?
For all but my first answer, bear in mind that while I write for Paizo, I don't work for them and nothing I say is official beyond the whole, "This is the writer's interpretation" bit. Talk with your GM and be happy.
1) As per Owen, the sohei is one of two non-fighter options that can pick Advanced Weapon Trainings for two of the reasons you mentioned (the first two). The only other archetype that qualifies is the myrmidarch magus. Of those two, the myrmidarch is the only non-fighter archetype in the game that can take the Advanced Weapon Training feat, because it has both weapon training and an effective fighter level for feats.
2) This is sort of an awkward area because the rules for VMC aren't well solidified. VMC does NOT grant you an effective fighter level for the purpose of choosing feats, just fighter class features, so the Advanced Weapon Training feat can't be chosen. You...
Thanks for the response mate, really enjoy the rule-set and love the way it, near overnight I'd say, made me both consider the base-fighter as a valid choice as well as making me immensely interested in the Armour Masters Handbook.
All I can hope for is more Weapon Tricks and more AWT options.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for the response mate, really enjoy the rule-set and love the way it, near overnight I'd say, made me both consider the base-fighter as a valid choice as well as making me immensely interested in the Armour Masters Handbook.
All I can hope for is more Weapon Tricks and more AWT options.
Thanks again.
No problem!
All I can hope is that Owen will contract me to write more of them. I've actually been writing more since I handed in my turnover, writing them down in a little notebook whenever the idea struck and developing them in a secret file on my computer marked, "In Case of Awesomeness, Open."
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So the AWT stuff is for the most part amazing. It gives the fighter a bunch of scope widening it needed. The base Weapon Training groups are also phenomenal... Well.. Or rather would be if it wasn't for one thing.
Magic.
In this case I'm not talking about spells or wizards or caster disparity. I mean magic items. With how the gear enhancement works in this game you never use anything but the fancy stabbity bit of death#$@& that you just spent a small nation's GNP on getting. Since magic weapons like that in this game are required as you level for the system math to work rather then extras you are penalised for not using said beatstick of doom and the weapon groups sort of break down. So really what this does is it allows the fighter to trade away a class feature that's not great considering the games core assumptions, but in a low magic sort of game or a game where the GM lets you have something like an aulet of mighty fists that works with wielded weapons *are* useful, for some that are useful in a normal game. This doesn't really make the fighter any better at what it does top end but it does help shore up a few places where the fighter frankly sucks fairly hard. It also has the added bonus for us that play home games rather then society of opening up that design space so it's easier to talk the GM into making other AWTs of similar power levels since it's less out of nowhere.
Aye, Vargr's point is another reason why Weapon Groups are immaterial. You don't own multiple magical weapons, because its way too expensive to do so.
The exception is a TWF, and of course, having to pay for two weapons is one of the reasons why being a TWF lags behind the damage curve and usefulness.
I will point out that the Close Weapons group is one of the few that might see multiple weapons, mainly because it includes a bunch of light weapons for TWF, AND it includes shields for shield bashing.
But really, you can't even do a classic long and short (sword and dagger) without taking the fencing group, which limits your choices.
So, being able to get the bonus on a group of weapons is pretty much immaterial across the board.
And without the ability to take AWT feats multiple times and sooner, the whole impact of their awesomeness is rendered largely moot, UNLESS you are a Weapon Master archetype fighter.
Unless fighters can start taking them earlier, and using their bonus fighter feats to do so, they just aren't a game changer, because they won't get into play!
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As for the whole armor argument, remember Celestial Plate is +5 to Dex bonus, and is 20k. Mithral Celestial Plate is +7 to dex bonus.
A Melee who starts with 13 Dex can eventually get a 24 Dex and max out Celestial Mithral Full plate's AC bonus WITHOUT using a fighter's bonus to Dex AC thing. Money issues means that, generally speaking, a fighter is never going to have enough Dex to max out his class Dex bonus in armor for the armor type he is wearing, meaning it's a wasted class benefit.
==Aelryinth
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It is crucial to remember that the utility of various abilities are about how much they can come up in actual play, not what they do to your optimized, preferred build. As a result, group playstyle makes a huge difference in how useful an ability is.
Fighters literally swapping out feats to respec to different weapons (with no option to respect weapon training with the same ease, and in some cases planning to change back after specific adventures), players ending up with a randomly selected magic weapon from treasure for at least part of an adventure, disarm, sunder, and the golf-bag of weapons to affect various foes (bypassing DR, shutting down regeneration, and so on) are all things that have an occurrence based on play style, and represent occasions where bonuses (at higher levels often pretty big bonuses) in weapons you *didn't* specialize in can have a significant influence on effectiveness.
While some play styles mean you'd never see any of those things happen, they all DO happen, sometimes quite frequently. And a lot of fighters carry things like silver war hammers, reach weapons, or morningstars to be able to swap weapons when facing werewolf assassins or advanced burning skeletons.
It is crucial to remember that the utility of various abilities are about how much they can come up in actual play, not what they do to your optimized, preferred build. As a result, group playstyle makes a huge difference in how useful an ability is.
Fighters literally swapping out feats to respec to different weapons (with no option to respect weapon training with the same ease, and in some cases planning to change back after specific adventures), players ending up with a randomly selected magic weapon from treasure for at least part of an adventure, disarm, sunder, and the golf-bag of weapons to affect various foes (bypassing DR, shutting down regeneration, and so on) are all things that have an occurrence based on play style, and represent occasions where bonuses (at higher levels often pretty big bonuses) in weapons you *didn't* specialize in can have a significant influence on effectiveness.
While some play styles mean you'd never see any of those things happen, they all DO happen, sometimes quite frequently. And a lot of fighters carry things like silver war hammers, reach weapons, or morningstars to be able to swap weapons when facing werewolf assassins or advanced burning skeletons.
This is true, and this is another weak point of weapon training.
Because the other melee classes can simply ignore the fact it's a different weapon type, They MIGHT lose the +1 of Weapon Focus. Weapon Training is, in effect, a penalty for not getting your preferred weapon and being able to use it that other melee classes do not have to suffer.
So, Weapon Groups is still woefully underpowered, and niche examples only serve to highlight how weak it is vs a combat buff that effects ALL weapons.
I think Two Handed Fighter Archetype is the only 'weapon group' that is going to include reach, blunt, piercing and slashing weapons. Perhaps Axes/hammers. In any event, they will have the multiple weapons, but only ONE will be enchanted, because it wastes money to do otherwise.
The Paladin and Ranger can buff their 'off' weapons if they need to, the raging barbarian just shrugs, but the fighter can't buff an off weapon, and is unlikely to have it in a group.
Not to mention the more groups, the weaker the benefit is (another crazy rule). I mean, you talk about play style, but the reality is, the situation you are attempting to defend comes up about as frequently as stealing the mage's spellbook and repeatedly attacking while spellcasters are trying to sleep. - it's a very anti-class specific action that doesn't actually take away from the main points of multiple weapons cost a lot, and PC's tend to stick with one weapon (style) their whole careers.
So, yeah, Owen, while the idea of the feats is great, you need to do 2 things -
1) Make it so all fighters can take them sooner.
2) Make it so all fighters can take more of them.
Because right now, the fact they are awesome and you're only ever going to get one of them before 9th level is seriously underwhelming.
And fighters still don't have a damage bonus at level 1!
==Aelryinth
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Aye, Vargr's point is another reason why Weapon Groups are immaterial. You don't own multiple magical weapons, because its way too expensive to do so.
Besides the examples mentioned, a rather obvious exception would be archery. As a side style, mostly.
But having the option to go from your big beefy 2 handed sword to a nice bow when enemies are flying and such...and then to get weapon training and gloves of dueling on it so you still do decent damage despite the fact you aren't built for archery... yeah, it is nice.
But I will agree that the class is designed for relative focus, so iterations of weapon training past level 10 are just often just number boosters most of the time.