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Holy Tactician info. Basically I can get teamwork feats and give them to my allies even if they don't qualify. Only 1 active at a time.
This paladin will only get to 7th level (just playing through Dragon's Demand), so I'll only get 2 such feats. Which ones are staples, must-haves, etc.? I'm thinking of something that would likely benefit us during most combat encounters. Also, something that is useful if we have a normal party composition (so, there will not be 3 melee fighters on the frontlines -- more likely I'll be the tank, there will be a rogue/swashbuckler type, a wizard and something else).
Also, I feel that giving up a standard action to invoke these feats is a pretty hefty sacrifice mid-combat. However, there doesn't appear to be a time limitation on the ability. Is it possible to grant the feat in the morning, as everyone is memorizing spells & whatnot, and then have it active throughout the day?
EDIT: Also, I'm not optimized. I'm a paladin of Sarenrae, so I wield a scimitar and shield. Meh damage output, if that changes any feat options.
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Holy Tactician has no duration so feel free to hold onto the teamwork aura all day and change it when you want.
Some I like for my Paladin include:
Coordinated Charge (Pseudo pounce)
Duck and Cover (Share Reflex saves)
Escape Route (No AoO on movement next to allies)
Harrying Partners (if you use Bodyguard with Aid Another this gets nasty)
Lookout (act in surprise round if ally can act)
Outflank (Extra flanking an AoOs)
Phalanx Fighter (Bonus AC and Saves against evil)
Precise Strike (Extra precision damage, though I prefer accuracy)
Stealth Synergy (If you need stealth)
If you want an extra Teamwork feat, the Holy Guide stacks with the Tactician.
Lookout (act in surprise round if ally can act)
How is this one possible? It's not compatible with the paladin's Battlefield Presence ability, which states that the teamwork feats cannot be shared when you're flat-footed. Therefore, the lookout feat is shut off precisely when it is supposed to be used.
Very much depends on the party setup and somewhat on the opposition.
- Shield wall (If more people in the party use shields. And with darkwood bucklers even casters can.)
- Shake it off (Bonuses to saves are always nice. More so unnamed ones)
- Trade initiative (useful if you activate it before combat)
- Elemental Commixture (Only useful with two casters who work as a team. But can be strong)
+1 to escape route. Best combined with the paladin spell grace. Suddenly opponents with reach are much less of a problem.
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So I recently made a Holy Tactician, and there were a couple of things that came up...
Battlefield Presence (Su)
At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action. All allies must receive the same feat, but do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. This ability does not function if the paladin is flat-footed or unconscious. Allies must be able to see and hear the holy tactician in order to gain this benefit. Changing the bonus feat granted is a swift action.
This ability replaces aura of courage.
...and from the Combat Section:
Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
This means that although Battlefield Presence doesn't have a listed duration (you can have it up all day every day), it does turn off the minute combat starts unless you make your perception check (which just means you have to spend a standard action re-activating it when your turn comes around).
Because of this, options like Lookout aren't as good for a Holy tactician as they would be in other circumstances (If you can't act in the surprise round, Battlefield Presence switches off & you still can't act in the surprise round). If you do have a way of guaranteeing you can act in the surprise round it's fine, but if not there are better options.This brings me to my second point (really the first one again): Battlefield Presence switches off in the surprise round of combat unless you make your perception check. What this means is that unless you want to spend the first round of combat reactivating this ability (no matter which Teamwork Feats you take), you should try to bump your perception more than most (and most people say Perception is the best/most used skill in the game).
Perception isn't a class skill for a Paladin, and Wisdom isn't a super-useful stat usually either. It might be worth checking out some traits/feats or bumping up your wisdom score by a point or two for this archetype. If you can't think of a way to do that, maybe find a move-equivalent action that you'd use at the beginning of every combat so that your first turn doesn't have to be just "Activate Ability" (Even moving to position yourself between the enemies & the wizard isn't a bad choice here).
Some Specific Feats:
Duck & Cover & Stealth Synergy (& similar feats) let you take your allies' roll if it's better, but you still apply your own modifiers to the roll. It's been a while since I did the math, but I think it averages out to about a +4 to everyone's rolls (someone can correct me if that's wrong).
Phalanx Fighter sounds good, but the bonus you receive depends on your group bunching up, which is almost always a bad idea (& in many circumstances you'd have been better off going normal paladin for the morale bonuses anyway).
Feint Partner isn't a bad choice if you're thinking of taking Improved Feint & you have a rogue in your party (they'll love you for it). Charisma is a good stat for you, so you should be able to pull this off fairly easily.
Outflank is almost certainly the best combat feat you can take here, put that Scimitar to good use (Outflank grants AoO's to your team-mates on a crit).
And as Markov Spiked Chain said it pairs really well with Escape Route.
Archetypes:
I'm pretty sure Holy Guide does stack, although you'd have to talk to your GM about HOW they stack. (Can you use the Holy guide TW-Feat with Battlefield Presence? Or would it be reserved only for an alternate use of Smite Evil. Using it with BFP means you have more options, using it with SE means you can have 2 teamwork feats active at once).
Edit: I forgot to mention, You can only have 1 Teamwork Feat active at a time. This seriously Hampers certain feats. I was going to recommend Paired Opportunist and Outflank till I remembered that. There are a bunch of really good Teamwork Feat options that just don't work with this archetype. I really want this archetype to be good (and I think it is good) but it does have it's limitations.
Personally I like Warrior of the Holy Light. It replaces your spells (Bummer) and it takes a Standard Action to activate (Bigger Bummer), but it has the same range as Weal's Champion & Battlefield Presence, stacks with both of them and lasts for 1 minute (which should be more than long enough for most combats). Given that you're only going to level 7, you're probably only losing 2 first-level spells & 1 second-level spell per day, so this will probably give you a better buff than any spells you'd be casting anyway. Before I sell it too hard though, it does mean you wouldn't count as a caster for spell completion items (wands/scrolls/etc), so that's one more thing to take into consideration.
And just in case nothing we've said has inspired you: Teamwork Feats
granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action
Its a teamwork feat you possess. Compare to:
He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him.
Emphasis mine.
Lastwall Phalanx is pretty stellar if you can get your group to cooperate.
This means that although Battlefield Presence doesn't have a listed duration (you can have it up all day every day), it does turn off the minute combat starts unless you make your perception check (which just means you have to spend a standard action re-activating it when your turn comes around).Oh, I wouldn't run it like that. "Ability does not function" doesn't = ability ends and must be restarted with a standard action. It's like a spell in an anti-magic field -- it's suppressed while in the field, but immediately resumes when the field is gone.
Of course, we're attaching a rules-handling to something that doesn't specify how to handle it, so my handling of it is just as arbitrary as anything else.
Ouch reading Mister Charisma's argument made my eyes hurt...RAW is 100% obvious here. No duration= on all day and all night.
granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action
Its a teamwork feat you possess. Compare to:
He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, the cavalier can grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him.
Emphasis mine.
Re-emphasis mine
Re-emphasis minegranting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action
Emphasis mine.
Eh, it clearly means that the receiving allies must consider it a bonus feat as it skips prerequites, but this is just basic English
Eh, it clearly means that the receiving allies must consider it a bonus feat as it skips prerequites, but this is just basic English
No it "clearly" does not mean that. The fact that can "clearly" see the same sentence in two completely different ways means nothing is really clear at all.
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Wow, a lot of hostility on this thread.
For anyone who wants to disagree with someone else, here's how you do it:
Oh, I wouldn't run it like that. "Ability does not function" doesn't = ability ends and must be restarted with a standard action. It's like a spell in an anti-magic field -- it's suppressed while in the field, but immediately resumes when the field is gone.
Of course, we're attaching a rules-handling to something that doesn't specify how to handle it, so my handling of it is just as arbitrary as anything else.
This is clearly someone who's levelled their Diplomacy ;)
The main problem people seem to be having is interpreting this phrase:
At 3rd level, a tactician can direct her allies in battle, granting each ally within 30 feet one teamwork feat she possesses as a bonus feat as a standard action.
The only person I can absolutely agree with about this is Jodokai:
The fact that (people) can "clearly" see the same sentence in two completely different ways means nothing is really clear at all.
Well spoken Sir (or Madam?)
To outshyn, ask your GM how they interpret this class, and build accordingly.
To everyone else, let's agree to disagree and get back to helping outshyn.
outshyn, I've re-evaluated Stealth Synergy and I now think it's really good.
Stealth is something where often if 1 person fails, everyone suffers for it.
With a 4 person team, your odds of someone rolling 10 or less (before modifiers) are 15/16 (approx. 94%).
With Stealth Synergy, it basically reverses those odds. You only have to take a 10 or less if EVERYONE rolls less than a 10 ... The odds of that happening are 1/16 (approx. 6%).
and just for a little more maths into the scenario, the odds of someone rolling a 5 or less (before modifiers) are 81/256 (approx. 32%).
With Stealth Synergy, the odds of EVERYONE rolling 5 or less are 1/256 (approx. 0% ... ok approx. 0.4%)
Let's say the person with the worst sneak score needs to roll a 16 or higher, they have a 25% chance to get it without Stalth Synergy, with Stealth Synergy it jumps to ~32% (81/256).
(Edit: I'm pretty sure I got the maths in this paragraph wrong, It should be {1-(81/256)} which is 175/256 (approx. 68%). Someone else who's a maths nerd should check my work.)
2nd Edit: If my maths in the first edit was correct, Duck & cover is probably really good too. Really need someone else to check my work though, I'm overthinking everything now =P
So it's not great at getting you really high rolls, but it essentially lets everyone in the party "take 10" on stealth checks 15 times out of every 16 checks, and all but rules out really bad rolls.
I still think Duck and Cover isn't as good. It's not bad, but if someone fails their reflex save, it doesn't effect the party in the same way that failing a stealth roll is likely to, so making sure everyone succeeds doesn't seem like as big a deal.
(sorry for the long post)
Broken Wing Gambit as soon as it becomes available.
No it "clearly" does not mean that. The fact that can "clearly" see the same sentence in two completely different ways means nothing is really clear at all.
Eh, it clearly means that the receiving allies must consider it a bonus feat as it skips prerequites, but this is just basic English
I grant you an object in my possession as a gift
This doesn't mean that the item I give you has to be one that has been gifted to me previously, but that you should consider it a gift from me.
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If you want an extra Teamwork feat, the Holy Guide stacks with the Tactician.
Actually, it doesn't stack. The Weals' Champion ability from Holy Tactician replaces Smite Evil, and the Teamwork Feat ability from Holy Guide requires you to expend one use of your smite to give out the teamwork feat. Since Holy Guide doesn't actually alter smite evil, you could say they "stack", but you will never be able to use Holy Guide. (I made the same mistake on my build, and I had to retrain out of Holy Guide.)
You might be able to get your GM to houserule that you could expend a use of Weal's Champion instead, but as written, they don't work together.
I have a Holy Tactician build with one level of Brawler: this lets me learn teamwork feats as a move action, then swap my teamwork feat as a swift action. Since Holy Tactician is one of the few teamwork builds that let you pass out any teamwork feat you have instead of just the bonus feat, this is a really powerful option.
I have Shake It Off as my main teamwork feat that's up all the time. Once combat starts, I spend a move action to learn Outflank, Paired Opportunists, Precise Strike, or one of the other really useful combat teamwork feats. The brawler dip also lets me learn various maneuver feats or Bodyguard etc., as I need them. (I picked up Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Combat Reflexes as character feats to qualify for mot combat feats that I want.)
Teamwork Feat (Ex): At 6th level, a holy guide gains a teamwork feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites for this feat. As a standard action, He can expend one use of smite evil to grant this feat to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 3 rounds plus 1 round for every 2 levels the holy guide possesses. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of this bonus feat. Evil creatures do not gain the benefit of this teamwork feat, even if the paladin considers them allies. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level.
The two archetypes stack by RAW. It does not alter, change or replace Smite Evil.
Holy Guide only replaces the 3rd and 6th level Mercy. While you have to spend a Smite (and not a Weal's) in order to activate the Tactician effect, you can still take the archetype (just not use the Tactician portion). None of the Holy Tactician abilities replace the Mercies, so you can take Holy Guide with it.
You can take Holy Guide to get the 6th level teamwork feat and then proceed to use Holy Tactician to spread it out in an Aura (using the 3rd level Holy Tactician ability), but you cannot activate "Tactician" by spending a Weal's Champion. Holy Tactician doesn't care where you got the teamwork feat from, just that you have it.
The two archetypes stack by RAW. It does not alter, change or replace Smite Evil.
It doesn't have to say "This ability alters Smite Evil" for you to see that it does in fact alter Smite Evil.
The part that says "This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level" means that you don't get a mercy at 6th level, and you can't stack it with any archetype that would replace/alter that 6th level mercy.
Once again, rather than arguing about this here, we're better of saying "ask your GM and build accordingly."
If people really want to keep arguing about this I can create a rule-forum thread and we can argue about it there?
The two archetypes stack by RAW. It does not alter, change or replace Smite Evil.It doesn't have to say "This ability alters Smite Evil" for you to see that it does in fact alter Smite Evil.
The part that says "This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level" means that you don't get a mercy at 6th level, and you can't stack it with any archetype that would replace/alter that 6th level mercy.
Once again, rather than arguing about this here, we're better of saying "ask your GM and build accordingly."
If people really want to keep arguing about this I can create a rule-forum thread and we can argue about it there?
Dunno , if someone asked me what the RAW is , i would agree with him.
If it isnt written at the end it changes... an ability , then it doesnt count.
If someone really needs to know the RAW "RAW" before they can rule this over , then yeah maybe a thread over there would be handy.
I want to thank you all for helping me with this! I finally got the character built and I like him very much.
So! I wanted to share this paladin's character sheet with you all, since you helped so much. In addition, I'm sharing his backstory. Warning: it's an actual story-length write-up, with graphics and hopefully decent writing, so don't bother with it unless you have a few minutes to spare.
- Paladin character sheet, level 1, PDF
- Paladin backstory, PDF
The idea is this: I have played D&D and Pathfinder for about 30 years, but have never in my life played a paladin. I find them repugnant and holier-than-thou. So I thought, if I play one, I have to find a way to break him before I play him.
I selected the shabti race because this is a proxy race, a clone created to endure the damnation of the hells while the "true" person escapes punishment. Then when the lie is discovered by Pharasma, the shabti is freed. So the race knows evil, has memories of terrible misdeeds, but also is free-willed and welcome to choose a new path.
By giving him a Drawback of Umbral Unmasking, he can be "cursed" with casting a shadow that appears demonic, to mark him as from the hells. By doing these things, I hope to create a paladin who cannot easily come off as a sanctimonious do-gooder, and who might have some empathy toward those who have done wrong.
Sarenrae being the goddess of redemption certainly helps with his approach to life. I'm sad about her scimitar being the holy weapon, though. My guy doesn't do a lot of damage. Maybe his AC will compensate.
(Also, in case you're wondering about the narrator of the story, it's another player who will "discover" my paladin, and as a bribe for tying his backstory into mine, he'll get a free potion.)
Again, thanks you guys for all the help!