I am considering allowing some of the more powerful races in the next campaign I run, and was thinking it might work to keep things balanced by taking a couple points off the point buy of anyone who wanted to use the "advanced" (11-20 race point) races, instead of the old "level adjustment" mess. Has anyone done anything like this, or has any math/theories on what an appropriate cost would be? I am thinking something like 1 point buy point per 2 race points, but suspect it is far from an exact science.
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If i were you , i would first drop the concept that races are equally balanced and that the amount of RP = the race actual power.
Like you said , i think you will need to go on a case by case basis.
If your players agree to such a trade-off, then tell them that it is an experiment and a conditional agreement: if you feel an advanced race is overpowered (or underpowered) you will adjust the point buy when they level up and that they will then make the appropriate modifications to their characters' ability scores.
yeah. maybe just 2 point buy for any of the "advanced" races/ one * races from the inner sea races appendix. Just something small so that not picking an aasimar, tiefling, or even android if I go Iron Gods isn't going to seem mathematically stupid, but not so much of a penalty that veteran players looking for something new have no options.
edit: Hmm, making it dynamic might discourage players from trying, but otherwise is probably more reasonable since it IS an experiment
What about giving normal races some extra start gold - something like 2,000, to be spend freely? Its influence will diminish over time, like the advantage of playing an 'advanced' race.
Core races benefit from more options (alternative racial traits, racial feats, archetypes, favored class bonuses) than advanced ones - that shouldn't be underestimated either. If I'd powergame in your campaign, I'd likely pick human. Even if core races don't get benefits and advanced ones don't get penalties.
Another option would be to rebuild the core races. I was in a game that the GM rebuilt all of the core races to a 15RP build.
Core races experience normal RP in town. "Special" races would get awkward reactions from normal NPCs.
Another option would be to rebuild the core races. I was in a game that the GM rebuilt all of the core races to a 15RP build.
Humans are considered often if not the best , one of the best picks for a vast amount of classes , they do it with 9 RP , now imagine if they had an extra 6.
What about giving normal races some extra start gold - something like 2,000, to be spend freely? Its influence will diminish over time, like the advantage of playing an 'advanced' race.
Core races benefit from more options (alternative racial traits, racial feats, archetypes, favored class bonuses) than advanced ones - that shouldn't be underestimated either. If I'd powergame in your campaign, I'd likely pick human. Even if core races don't get benefits and advanced ones don't get penalties.
That is an idea worth considering. It makes it more a reward than a penalty, which is a psychological plus, and also has the diminishing returns sort of deal that was why I was considering altering the point buy, but possibly in a better way for races that are advanced because of special abilities not just really good stat boosts. Offsetting that by letting someone start with all their gear masterworked, or a lesser minor magic item like a ring of sustenance, handy haversack, or a hat of disguise should let players have something to keep them from feeling overshadowed.
I had not really considered the versatility of the alternate race traits either, although a few of the advanced races are pretty well supported there too. Helping the players of "normal" races make them more of a custom fit may also help keep players from feeling outshined.
Rather than gold, you could give the users of base races extra starting trait traits. Or you could give a set of general bonus feats to choose from, like iron will and improved initiative.
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I have found that the races actually written up in the advanced race guide are for the most part about equal to the core races. Take the aasimar for example. Yes they get a bonus to two stats with no penalty; they also get 4 racial traits. On the surface these seems very powerful, but let’s break it down. The stats are fixed at WIS and CHA. This is ok for a cleric but to any other class it is not as good. It kind of forces the character into a channel focused cleric. Next they get darkvision. Now this is actually a really good ability, this is probably the best ability they get.
Celestial Resistance sounds good, but is actually pretty minor. You get resistance 5 vs three energy types. While this is helps at low levels it really does not do much at higher levels. It will often completely negate the spell of a 1st level caster, but by 5th it really is not doing much. A lightning bolt at 5th level will do an average of 17.5 damage, ½ that if they make their save. So the aasimar takes 12.5 if he fails his save and 3.75 if he makes it. Chances are the aasimar is playing a class with a low reflex save and has at best a 14 DEX. More often than not he is going to fail his save. This means he takes 12.5 points of damage. The dwarf cleric with steel soul and glory of old gets an extra +5 on his save vs the lighting bolt. Chances are he will make his save. So the aasimar will take on the average 12.5 points of damage and the dwarf will take 8.75. Also since celestial resistance does not stack with other resistances it means if the character has access to a better resistance they get nothing, while the dwarf still gets the benefit of hardy.
Aasimar also get Daylight once per day. Getting a 3rd level spell at 1st level seems pretty good. But look at what it really does. It creates light, that’s it. Sure it can negate a darkness spell which is nice but other than that what does it really do. The aasimar has darkvision so he can already see in the dark. So basically once a day he can negate a darkness spell. Compare that to elven magic and it does not look all that good. Elven magic gives you a +2 bonus to identify magic, and more importantly a +2 on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance. Again the aasimar gets an early advantage but it really does nothing to help him at higher levels.
Getting a bonus of perception and diplomacy is actually another very good trait. This is a little better than the gnome gets. Both the skills the aasimar gets bonuses to are actually useful, where the gnome gets a bonus to a craft skill or profession skill. So the aasimar comes out ahead of a standard race for once.
So looking back the Aasimar gets a slight advantage on stats if he is playing a cleric. He gets darkvision which is great. He gets minor resistance to some attacks that are easily replicated. He can light up an area once per day. And finally he gets bonuses on two good skills. Most of the Aasimar abilities don’t really help that much at higher level. The core races on the other hand usually have abilities that are useful at all levels.
Compare the aasimar cleric vs the elven wizard and the elf comes out way ahead. The stat bonuses are pretty close with the Aasimar actually being slightly better. Darkvision is also a little better than low light vision. Skill wise they are evenly matched. Both get a bonus to perception, the Aasimar bonus to diplomacy is about as good as the elven bonus to spell craft. Defensively the elf comes out way ahead. Complete immunity to sleep and an untyped bonus to all enchantments is way better than 5pt of energy resistance. Having a +2 bonus on all caster levels to overcome spell resistance is a lot better than being able to cast daylight once per day. The elf is also proficient with a couple of martial weapons including bows. The elf will probably have a decent DEX so it may be able to make use of it once in a while. According to the book the elf is an 11 point race while the aasimar costs 15. Which character do you think is more powerful?
I agree with the Mysterious Stranger. You kind of have to look at the whole package and how it interacts.
Humans are very good because all their stuff combines to be "flexible and fill any role" kind of thing. And the "free any feat".
However, the Aasimar example needs to take into account the alternate racial abilities. Once again, they aren't gamebreaking, but there's a little leeway in the race and it can be made a little more focused on the character design.
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What I might do is find out the highest PB race you were willing to use (and if you wanted Monstrous or not), and then give a handful of race points to spend on the lower racial point classes, but you have to pick from their list of alternate racial abilities to do it.
So if you wanted everyone to bump up to say 18 points, and someone still wanted to pick Human, that means he'd get 9 extra points. But he has to pick from his alternate racial abilites.
Basically, his feat costs 4 points, and his skills cost 4 points. He can pick a couple of his racial bonuses and tack them on without losing his feat and skill bonus.
Since this can leave you with a point or two free at the end, I'd give the option of choosing the following:
- Skill Training (1pt)
- Sklll Bonus (2pt)
- Bump up language by one step (1pt)
This is all based on DM approval of course.
When I run I allow any core, featured or uncommon races. I don’t adjust the core races to try and balance them, because the core races don’t really need to be adjusted. I would not allow anyone to create their own race, nor would I allow any other races besides those that have full write ups.
The core races have so much extra material available to them that they can usually trade out any racial abilities that don’t benefit the character concept for something useful. For example if I am playing an elf ranger or rogue I can trade out the elven magic for silent hunter. This allows me use stealth while moving at a full speed. It also allows me to use stealth while running. Admiralty the -20 penalty will be hard to overcome at low level, but a high level character with the right equipment can manage it. Many of the abilities of the other races are highly circumstantial and almost force the character into certain classes.
I am more worried about the player with the dwarf warpriest with steel soul and glory of old than a ifrit fire sorcerer. Allowing other races is not going to upset the game balance as much as you think. There may be one or two cases where a race and class combination is too powerful, but for the most part you should be fine. The only one I know of off the top of my head that I would disallow would be a fey blooded kitsune sorcerer.