In another thread in this subforum we're posed the question which god we would worship if we were to live in Golarion. Unsurprisingly very few people answered with evil deities. That made me wonder how those gods get their worshippers, defined as dedicated followers of the faith but not necessarily granted any power. Honestly it isn't hard to think of many possible reasons. Ignorance, fear, desire, ambition and obligation to name just a few. I'd like to discuss god x utilizing methods y and z to get people a through c.
Lets take Asmodeus to start us off, a relatively subtle deity compared to many others in the evil line-up he wants you to choose a life of captivity, to resign yourself of free will. Though Asmodeus isn't above tricking you into it he is more likely to manipulate you by tugging at your heartstrings, allowing him countless avenues to tempt you into submission, often at the low and high extremes of despair and hubris. Ultimately he offers you the power to transgress a limit at a steep price, though he's more than willing to offer a discount for those predisposed to his service. Of course, the price seems more than reasonable at first...
I don't like Asmodeus. More accurately, I hate him and what he represents. I cannot think of anything I hold more sacred than free will, mine or anyone else's. Even among gods of torture and murder the tyrant Asmodeus stands out as the supreme villain. I would never worship him.
Unless we'd make a deal.
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We didn't answer with evil deities most likely because of our culture, upbringing, and environment. Culture's a big one. Why is Asmodeus so huge in Cheliax? Because the government and lifestyle there greatly encourage him, and even people who would abhor him need to at least accept that there, he is king. Asmodeus is also like a supreme dictator, and all of his worshipers are like his subjects. Maybe the first generation of worshipers are reluctant, desperate, or even stupid, but the next generation will be raised to believe in the worship of Asmodeus fully. To fail to do so would result in unfortunate consequences for the family.
Other people just... suffered too much. The concept of beauty, love, and life are twisted jokes to them, so they turn to evil deities whom they see as vile but honest in how they espouse the way life is: selfish, cruel, even petty... but they give something in return. Asmodeus gives stability, and though you might be a slave to him, if you serve well, you'll be a master over others, and that intoxicating power soothes the egos of those who have been scorned too many times.
It's not just Asmodeus, either. Zon-Kuthon perverts pain into pleasure, making those who experience it to enjoy a life full of it. Urgathoa is a hedonist, and for those who want to gorge themselves on the joys of life welcome her. Rovagug and Lamashtu are both served primarily by monsters, and their mentalities are so alien and destructive that it might just be the only thing that they really think speaks to them. Then there's the host of demon lords, archdevils, and the Four Horsemen, all served by the insane, the lost, the sadistic, and the arrogant alike.
But it all boils down to power. Evil is about not having scruples, never having to say sorry, never having to sacrifice yourself for anyone but yourself, and destroying what offends you. Those are all things good deities might not be willing to do, but evil does.
Asmodeus insists that all the problems in the world ultimately stem from free-will. I mean, he's technically not wrong...
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Asmodeus insists that all the problems in the world ultimately stem from free-will. I mean, he's technically not wrong...
You could be even more consequent and say: Let's worship the Horsemen, because when everything is gone, everything bad is gone also. Half truth is lie's best face (based on Delenn from TV show Babylon 5), after all.
Anyway, back to topic. Negative emotions are one important reason to fall for evil - and the promises of evil gods (more general: entities). Fear might guide you to LE entities, because their order promises safety from those you fear. Anger can lead to CE entities, because you want destruction to cool down. And misery could result in worshipping NE entities, because you want all this crap to end.
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The kind of person who would normally answer Norgorber is also the kind of person who would instead say something else. For all we know, the thread was full of Norgorberites.
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Asmodeus is worshipped because he emphasizes stratification, discrimination, order and a shred of honor.
Stratification means there's clearly me, us, and them. There's people higher then you, and lower then you. Asmodeus clearly appeals to those people higher on the scale, who can then enforce their wills on those lower on the scale by Holy Writ, which means the 10% are entitled with all the power, and its completely justified. Why would they give that up? Asmodeus is a god of pure elitism, racism, sexism.
Those who don't have power don't even have the RIGHT to complain about it. Those not a part of the system are to be considered as little more then animals, do what you like to them.
Order means this is the way it is, if you don't like it, tough crap. Which is wonderful if you do like the way it is, with you on top.
He caters to the smart and the subtle instead of the strong. Laws, contracts, the ability to manipulate others...not just bash them over the head and take what you want. VERY appealing to the powerful and wealthy. If you aren't smart enough to stop me, it's your own fault, right? I'm just smarter then you are.
And of course, wrapping this all up in shreds of honor...you DO obey the law, you WILL keep your word, and you simply don't just kill and take...how savage! How ignorant! No, no, we will do this LEGALLY...
==Aelryinth
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LE:
Asmodeus, as mentioned, definitely appeals to those in power. At the same time, he manages to appeal to those who aren't in power by promising them a way to get there. If you think you deserve power, Asmodeus is there encouraging you to twist the rules, lie, cheat, and rub elbows in order to get it, so long as you don't get caught. For anybody with the magical chops, there's also the Faustian bargain option.
Zon-Kuthon probably doesn't have quite the same broad-base appeal. You have to really have to be into pain to sign up with the god of pain, in addition to being in the general vicinity of LE. There is, however, a great thread about Kuthonites, though- I'd check that out.
NE:
Norgorber is pretty easy, since he's got four aspects (murder, secrets, theft, and poison). Anybody involved in crime or political intrigue has a good reason to ask him for help, and unlike Asmodeus, he's not really demanding anything. He even helps out people who don't worship him, insofar as it advances his own ends. Plenty of people have secrets that they want to stay hidden.
Urgathoa also has a few good recruitment avenues. For one, she's in charge of the most direct way of immortality. Anybody afraid of death is probably going to at least be tempted to consider avoiding it. (Certainly, with clerics running around and the like, it's a little less scary, but Pharasma's judgment is still pretty scary.) Plus, being in charge of disease means that if you've got something nasty and can't afford clerical services for (over half a year's wages for a skilled laborer by the book), she's the one you have to try bargaining with for reprieve. Plus, she's the goddess of indulgence, with her temples being modeled after feast halls. I would imagine that food for the starving is a common way to get new followers- even to the point of spreading famine just to create the right conditions.
CE:
Lamashtu is another evil deity who probably gets a fair amount of traffic from Pharasma being terrifyingly detached and impartial. Pharasma is the goddess of both life and death, and a parent unwilling to accept the death of their newborn child as an option might turn to Lamashtu. Her help typically comes at a cost, but she's willing to intervene. The nature of her portfolio and worship practices probably also gets a few people. And, as the goddess of madness and nightmares, she probably drives some people to worship.
Rovagug is not a god of subtlety. Do you want to destroy all the things? He's your monstrous worm-centipede god-beast of annihilation.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Which will bring in quite a few recruits.
I wonder whether evil gods need that many worshippers. It's a matter of how they get their power. Good worshippers sacrifice goats, harvest produce, little wax statues and other inconsequential trivia. Evil worshipper sacrifice scores of virgins instead. I suspect the virgins might provide more energy than some vegetables, though the gods might appreciate a balanced diet.
Gods in PFS have power with or without worshippers. They are not dependent on them.
The difference is not power, but INFLUENCE. By tacit agreement, deities don't directly involve themselves in mortal happenings. They empower clerics and give allusions and dreams and guidance, but don't act themselves.
Having more worshippers means having more people there to do things for you, attract souls to your ethos, and block the influence of your rivals.
But power? They don't need the 'power'.
==Aelryinth
Asmodeus is worshipped because he emphasizes stratification, discrimination, order and a shred of honor.
Stratification means there's clearly me, us, and them. There's people higher then you, and lower then you. Asmodeus clearly appeals to those people higher on the scale, who can then enforce their wills on those lower on the scale by Holy Writ, which means the 10% are entitled with all the power, and its completely justified. Why would they give that up? Asmodeus is a god of pure elitism, racism, sexism.
Those who don't have power don't even have the RIGHT to complain about it. Those not a part of the system are to be considered as little more then animals, do what you like to them.Order means this is the way it is, if you don't like it, tough crap. Which is wonderful if you do like the way it is, with you on top.
He caters to the smart and the subtle instead of the strong. Laws, contracts, the ability to manipulate others...not just bash them over the head and take what you want. VERY appealing to the powerful and wealthy. If you aren't smart enough to stop me, it's your own fault, right? I'm just smarter then you are.
And of course, wrapping this all up in shreds of honor...you DO obey the law, you WILL keep your word, and you simply don't just kill and take...how savage! How ignorant! No, no, we will do this LEGALLY...
==Aelryinth
Like Fry said in Futurama, "I hope to be rich some day so I can abuse the poor smucks I used to be" or something like that. Someone at the bottom could learn to be an assassin, and start to kill their way to the top. Anyone too stupid to hire them and have them kill the obstacles to their success, is too stupid to live.
If I wasn't worshipping Pharasma, Cayden Caliean, Desna, or Callistra I think good old Norgorber wouldnt be a terrible option, especially if you focused on the secrets part of his portfolio.
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I would go for LE : all rules are set and I will play the game better than all the rest of you, in perfect obedience to my divine master. With an eye toward rooting out corruption, disloyalty and self-aggrandizement.
Inquisitor of Asmodeus or Achaekek, I think.
Cheliax might be a perfect place under this PoV.
Actually Hell's Vengeance sounds quite enticing now :-)
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It depends I suppose. Charon could be amazing. I mean, a simple butcher kills things all the time, so does a hunter. It doesn't matter that it's small death on a small scale, it's death. You shoot a deer, for food, sport, leather, fur, it doesn't matter, you killed it. Ergo, Charon likes what you did. Even being an NG person, you can easily 'satisfy' Charon.
Want to be a really solid Charon worshipper? Be a ferryman who also happens to fish. Kill 2-3 fish a day, make sure to use lots of poisonous bug spray to kill all of those insects that bug you, and ferry people around on rivers. Man, you would be a great Charon guy.
If I were going to worship Charon I would go all the way. The secret to worshiping him is that you get to focus on the inevitable death. Save a town, but on the condition that when they die their souls go to him. You could even work on the soul trade and make a huge profit.
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In another thread in this subforum we're posed the question which god we would worship if we were to live in Golarion. Unsurprisingly very few people answered with evil deities. That made me wonder how those gods get their worshippers--
As one of the individuals who answered that they would worship an evil god, (Zyphus specifically) I believe I can help you answer this conundrum.
The answer is simple. Look at the lives we live on earth, the trials and tribulations. Look at the simple prejudices and predispositions that each and every human faces daily. The stresses of our lives, that inner source of contempt for the challenges we didnt ask for: being turned down for our dream jobs, the sudden unfair bill or collateral damage, the possibility each and every day of something going terribly wrong and flipping our worlds completely topside-down.
Fear, anger, hatred, these things are infectious. Surround a person with enough of it and like a emotional disease, they will inevitably be worn down by it and accept it. The same cannot be said for hope, happiness, and tolerance. They're fleeting, or have to be trained, it's far harder to hold yourself to their standards. Because deep down, youre always going to to respond negatively first and rationalize your positive feelings afterward.
Now imagine the negativity had power, real power. When you cut off that other person in traffic, someone pats the back of your mind and comforts you. "They deserved it, next time dont even feel sorry, it's not like you need their forgiveness." And each and every time you make your day better and someone else's day worse, you get a gold star.
And at the end of your life, (and no, you dont get to choose the exact time, place, or feelings you'll have when it ends) if you collected enough gold stars, you get a comfortable eternity with only the knowledge that you were right.
What could be better than that?
Zyphus understands, he knows the game is rigged. You should choose to try and flip that rigged table, not place your chips down and gamble your life.
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In the end, a lot of evil is preferring expediency to empathy. Norgorber makes his bones off this sort of thing - I could spend endless months trying to convince the vizier that he's holding the Emperor back from doing the right thing by his people, or I could poison him, blackmail him, have his throat cut in the night, and I don't have to go through all that silliness.
That appears to be a stark example, but think of the number of dramatic situations we see on TV and in movies where someone starts shouting "There's no time!" Crisis is where morality goes to die, and engendering crisis is how we get entire peoples to accept abhorrent things (see Cheliax and/or Japanese Internment). The great thing about crisis, rhetorically, is that it can completely reframe the question to skip over all the moral hand-wringing: No longer do we ask, "ought we do this?" In a crisis, it becomes "How could we do it?"
While Norgorber is an expert expediter, Asmodeus lives where the big decisions are made - the hard decisions that no one wants to make. Allowing a plurality of viewpoints may be moral, but it's also damaging to stability in the long-term: the inability to reach consensus means that progress slows to a crawl. How much wiser and more progressive to simply silence dissenters and do what must be done! The greatest good for the greatest number can be achieved if only the wreckers and dissenters are silenced!
I don't like Asmodeus. More accurately, I hate him and what he represents. I cannot think of anything I hold more sacred than free will, mine or anyone else's. Even among gods of torture and murder the tyrant Asmodeus stands out as the supreme villain. I would never worship him.
Unless we'd make a deal.
Asmodeus is the God who is there, waiting to help, when you are opposed by people who have no interest in deliberation. Maybe they're badly misinformed, maybe their POV stems from their faith and they have no interest in deliberating, maybe both - but important work does not get done because someone just won't listen. That's when he shows up, offering to change minds for you. Just this once, only if you ask, and for the Greater Good, right?
Yoda was right - the Dark Side is quicker, easier, and more seductive. Also, I hear they have cookies.
We didn't answer with evil deities most likely because of our culture, upbringing, and environment. Culture's a big one. Why is Asmodeus so huge in Cheliax? Because the government and lifestyle there greatly encourage him, and even people who would abhor him need to at least accept that there, he is king. Asmodeus is also like a supreme dictator, and all of his worshipers are like his subjects. Maybe the first generation of worshipers are reluctant, desperate, or even stupid, but the next generation will be raised to believe in the worship of Asmodeus fully. To fail to do so would result in unfortunate consequences for the family.
Other people just... suffered too much. The concept of beauty, love, and life are twisted jokes to them, so they turn to evil deities whom they see as vile but honest in how they espouse the way life is: selfish, cruel, even petty... but they give something in return. Asmodeus gives stability, and though you might be a slave to him, if you serve well, you'll be a master over others, and that intoxicating power soothes the egos of those who have been scorned too many times.
It's not just Asmodeus, either. Zon-Kuthon perverts pain into pleasure, making those who experience it to enjoy a life full of it. Urgathoa is a hedonist, and for those who want to gorge themselves on the joys of life welcome her. Rovagug and Lamashtu are both served primarily by monsters, and their mentalities are so alien and destructive that it might just be the only thing that they really think speaks to them. Then there's the host of demon lords, archdevils, and the Four Horsemen, all served by the insane, the lost, the sadistic, and the arrogant alike.
But it all boils down to power. Evil is about not having scruples, never having to say sorry, never having to sacrifice yourself for anyone but yourself, and destroying what offends you. Those are all things good deities might not be willing to do, but evil does.
very well said.
In another thread in this subforum we're posed the question which god we would worship if we were to live in Golarion. Unsurprisingly very few people answered with evil deities. That made me wonder how those gods get their worshippers--As one of the individuals who answered that they would worship an evil god, (Zyphus specifically) I believe I can help you answer this conundrum.
The answer is simple. Look at the lives we live on earth, the trials and tribulations. Look at the simple prejudices and predispositions that each and every human faces daily. The stresses of our lives, that inner source of contempt for the challenges we didnt ask for: being turned down for our dream jobs, the sudden unfair bill or collateral damage, the possibility each and every day of something going terribly wrong and flipping our worlds completely topside-down.
Fear, anger, hatred, these things are infectious. Surround a person with enough of it and like a emotional disease, they will inevitably be worn down by it and accept it. The same cannot be said for hope, happiness, and tolerance. They're fleeting, or have to be trained, it's far harder to hold yourself to their standards. Because deep down, youre always going to to respond negatively first and rationalize your positive feelings afterward.
Now imagine the negativity had power, real power. When you cut off that other person in traffic, someone pats the back of your mind and comforts you. "They deserved it, next time dont even feel sorry, it's not like you need their forgiveness." And each and every time you make your day better and someone else's day worse, you get a gold star.
And at the end of your life, (and no, you dont get to choose the exact time, place, or feelings you'll have when it ends) if you collected enough gold stars, you get a comfortable eternity with only the knowledge that you were right.
What could be better than that?
Zyphus understands, he knows the game is rigged. You should choose to...
very very well said.
In the end, a lot of evil is preferring expediency to empathy. Norgorber makes his bones off this sort of thing - I could spend endless months trying to convince the vizier that he's holding the Emperor back from doing the right thing by his people, or I could poison him, blackmail him, have his throat cut in the night, and I don't have to go through all that silliness.
That appears to be a stark example, but think of the number of dramatic situations we see on TV and in movies where someone starts shouting "There's no time!" Crisis is where morality goes to die, and engendering crisis is how we get entire peoples to accept abhorrent things (see Cheliax and/or Japanese Internment). The great thing about crisis, rhetorically, is that it can completely reframe the question to skip over all the moral hand-wringing: No longer do we ask, "ought we do this?" In a crisis, it becomes "How could we do it?"
While Norgorber is an expert expediter, Asmodeus lives where the big decisions are made - the hard decisions that no one wants to make. Allowing a plurality of viewpoints may be moral, but it's also damaging to stability in the long-term: the inability to reach consensus means that progress slows to a crawl. How much wiser and more progressive to simply silence dissenters and do what must be done! The greatest good for the greatest number can be achieved if only the wreckers and dissenters are silenced!
Asmodeus is the God who is there, waiting to help, when you are opposed by people who have no interest in deliberation. Maybe they're badly misinformed, maybe their POV stems from their faith and they have no interest in deliberating, maybe both - but important work...I don't like Asmodeus. More accurately, I hate him and what he represents. I cannot think of anything I hold more sacred than free will, mine or anyone else's. Even among gods of torture and murder the tyrant Asmodeus stands out as the supreme villain. I would never worship him.
Unless we'd make a deal.
very very very well said.
Freehold makes me feel highly acknowledged :D
Very highly acknowledged.
I think a close parallel can be drawn between Asmodeus and fascism. Thus how he manages to maintain a significant following in Cheliax can be understood in the same way as to how fascism gained (and is regaining) a significant foothold.