| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's worth noting that the level 10 wizard burning what's probably a 5th level summon spell (based on the urgency of the situation) in the first round goes a decent way towards the 25% resource goal. Throw in three rage rounds, a Freedom of Movement spell, a Lesser Restoration spell and some CLW wand charges from the cleric and I'd say Insain's encounter has done its job admirably.
While we're on the subject of '4 encounters make up an adventuring day', it's good to keep in mind that Paizo routinely ignore this rule in their own material. It's not at all unusual for APs to assume that players will go through 10+ encounters in a single day, especially at higher levels.
Sorry, when I said 4 encounters I meant 4 APL encounters.
In my experience when a Paizo AP has 10+ encounters a lot of them are lower than APL and generally utilize bad tactics to ease the difficulty.
Then again a decently optimized party can handle more than 4 APL encounters per day.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If this is what HWlash thinks an overpowered damage-optimized level 10 character looks like, he'd probably have a stroke if we show him something actually high-powered.
Well, I guess, we both can agree that there are different level of optimization, so just that there are even better (or worse, depends on the standpoint) builds doesn't exactly invalidate his argument.
And as far as the level 10 barbarian is concerned, I'm actually on his side in so far as I think the system's baseline assumption is that you start the barbarian at level 1 and play it up to level 10 (rather than start with creating a level 10 barb from scratch). In this case, it's quite probable that you don't end with a +2 furious weapon and a belt of giant strength +4 because you already had to spend some of your wealth to survive those ten levels, so you simply can't afford to buy them.
Also contrary to what 4E did, in Pathfinder it's not the baseline that player's get the equipment they wish for. A generous GM might be willing to let the PCs find such items but that's not a given. It's also not a given (according to the system) that you can buy such an item even in the biggest cities (there's only a 75% chance to get an 16.000 gp item in a metropolis, and at least in AP play, you're normally not in such a big town).
So I actually would agree that a level 10 barb with a belt +4 and a +2 furious weapon is at least somewhat optimized (as an aside I even think that starting a character with an 18 in his prime attribute already is a bit of opimization in standard play (with PB 15) ).
Now just in case, I'd like to repeat myself that I don't consider optimization to be bad thing. Though I happen to think, that especially in rpg boards things are often taken for granted which already fall in the optimization category. Which is no wonder, given that we're already 15 years into the system's existence.
...
Also, the "baseline" damage calculations all seem to be assuming that all party members are wading into combat. Does the wizard cast a buff or summon spell? Because that round they're not contributing damage (remember, this is an idiot wizard without standard action summons). Ditto the cleric, bard, and every other class with buff spells except possibly the magus. If you want a party to defeat a CR=APL fight in one round where any of the members does anything but full attack, either the action they take needs to add up to their share of damage (and I can't think of any buff spell that does that except haste... below level 6) or the other party members need to pick up the slack. So, unless the default assumption is that all party members use weapons and full attack, the default assumption for damage should be higher than 25%.
My impression is that fights were generally expected to last something like 3-5 rounds. If the fighter can contribute 50-75% of needed damage during that time, I think that is more then enough for comfortable victory.
Also, I don't think wizards with standard action summons is part of the "baseline" of Pathfinder.EDIT: The number of fights in a day, and the spacing of those fights has a huge impact on actual difficulty. For example, if you have the classic "random encounter" during a long overland travel trek, it could probably be a APL+3, especially if the players know it is the only encounter of the day. On the other hand, if you have 5-6 APL-1 encounters that are all ambushes hours apart, it will seem far more difficult.
Well, I'd never choose the estoc over the rapier to build a fencer because I don't consider the estoc to be a fencing weapon. The estoc losing the feat cost wouldn't change anything about that.
The thing is that my rapier wielding fencer would still be a viable, playable character. Yeah I could do a bit more damage with the estoc, But I'd lose the fun in playing this character because I know that an estoc isn't a fencing sword. So there's a choice to make and I chose the rapier. YMMV, of course.
There's too much hyperbole on both sides of the story. Power gaming and optimization doesn't make for bad roleplaying, it just takes into account some parts of the game the non-optimizer may not particularly care for.
On the other hand, suboptimal isn't a synonym for badwrongfun in any known language. Most sub-optimal choices don't fall into the category Kirth Gersen's sunglasses would fall into and don't damage an otherwise perfectly playable character too much. It also generally doesn't kill the other party members. Maybe I'm lucky but I have yet to experience a game ruined by the participation of a fighter in a game with wizards,druids and clerics (or vice versa).
So that is kinda my baseline: This great game serves different styles and tastes and there's no style or taste superior to others. You want to optimize? You're surely free to do so. You don't want to? Well, it's an equally valid choice.
And if you're really convinced that my gaming style is badwrongfun? Well, to be honest, I don't give a damn.
So you can't reflavor (call instead) a Estoc a Rapier. Then enjoy your free exotic proficiency of Estoc by calling it a Rapier?
And as far as the level 10 barbarian is concerned, I'm actually on his side in so far as I think the system's baseline assumption is that you start the barbarian at level 1 and play it up to level 10 (rather than start with creating a level 10 barb from scratch). In this case, it's quite probable that you don't end with a +2 furious weapon and a belt of giant strength +4 because you already had to spend some of your wealth to survive those ten levels, so you simply can't afford to buy them.
Starting at level 1 actually increases the likelyhood of acheieving a +3 weapon and a +4 belt during level 10. The two items together are maybe half of your wealth, so unless you're spending the other half on CLW wands it's very possible.
Barbarians are an odd case, similar to Paladins, in that their tough enough to skimp on some gear in order to save effectively. Superstition, Beast Totem, raging vitality, ect help out your AC and vulnerable saves considerably. If you optimize further into invulnerable rager you get even tougher.
Also if one of your party members chooses to be a crafter...... WBL is decimated.
|
|
So you can't reflavor (call instead) a Estoc a Rapier. Then enjoy your free exotic proficiency of Estoc by calling it a Rapier?
Sure, I can do that. And to be honest, if I think rationally about it, there's no argument against to do so. Still, from a personal standpoint and knowing, that the only reason I'd do this is for the damage plus, would feel like cheating to me. I also wouldn't choose to refluff a Lucerne hammer as a greatclub, for example, but that's just me.
Now, if a player would ask me for this possibility, I had probably no problems to allow it. Because as long as he's having fun, I'm fine with it, as long as it doesn't ruins the fun for the other players.
Starting at level 1 actually increases the likelyhood of acheieving a +3 weapon and a +4 belt during level 10. The two items together are maybe half of your wealth, so unless you're spending the other half on CLW wands it's very possible.
Barbarians are an odd case, similar to Paladins, in that their tough enough to skimp on some gear in order to save effectively. Superstition, Beast Totem, raging vitality, ect help out your AC and vulnerable saves considerably. If you optimize further into invulnerable rager you get even tougher.
Also if one of your party members chooses to be a crafter...... WBL is decimated.
I won't argue your points, I'm just saying that this is in my opinion not, how the game is originally intended to be played by the designers. I may be wrong, though.
The only thing I'm not sure about is most players saving their money to get those items. Because a substantial lot of their wealth is earned by finding treasure during the adventure, which, if sold, only gets them half the price, they had to pay for the same item. And as they, in my experience, not only spend their money for CLW wands but also for other items they'd like to have, they may not have the money they'd need for those two items at level 10.
And yeah, if crafting is an option, it's a totally other thing.
Some sample numbers from a theoretical "average" level 10 fighter. Equipment is based off of this thread, and feats are assumed to be Weapon Focus and Specialization, and Dodge for AC. Primary Attack is +2 Greatsword, Secondary Attack is +1 Longbow Composite +5, Tertiary Attack is masterwork Short sword. I suspect these numbers are close to the top of what a PC is expected to produce at this level.
Note: Smite, Favored Enemy, and Rage will produce higher, but more situational statistics.
Note2: I KNOW THERE ARE WAYS TO GET FAR HIGHER NUMBERS! UNLESS YOU HAVE A COMPELLING REASON FOR THINKING OTHER NUMBERS ARE CLOSER TO A PATHFINDER BASELINE, I DON'T CARE!
Attack
Level 10 Fighter Primary Attack
+10 BAB, +5 Str, +2 Weapon Training, +1 Feat, +2 Weapon
+20 To Hit
+17 Power Attacking
Level 10 Fighter Secondary Attack
+10 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon
+15 To Hit
Level 10 Fighter Tertiary Attack
+10 BAB, +5 Str, +1 Weapon
+16 To Hit
Damage
Level 10 Fighter Primary Damage
+7 Str, +2 Weapon Training, +2 Feat, +2 Weapon
2d6+13 Damage
2d6+22 Damage Power Attacking
Level 10 Fighter Secondary Damage
+5 Str, +1 Weapon Training, +1 Weapon
1d8+7 Damage
Level 10 Fighter Tertiary Damage
+5 Str
1d6+5 Damage
Armor Class
Level 10 Fighter
+11 (+2 Full Plate), +3 Dex, +2 NA, +2 Deflection, +1 Feat
AC 29
AC 34 with +3 Large Steel Shield)
Touch 16
FF 25
Skills are a little tough, as fighters are probably not maxing out any one skill. I could come up with a few different combinations (Class skill, full ranks, primary ability score, etc) that would be fairly representative of any class or skill.
.
.
Saves
Level 10 Fighter
Fortitude:
+7 Base, +2 Ability, +3 Cloak
+12
Reflex:
+3 Base, +3 Ability, +3 Cloak
+9
Will:
+3 Base, +1 Ability, +2 Feat, +3 Cloak
+9
Skills
Class skill, Primary Attribute, max ranks
Level 10 Wizard Spellcraft skill
+3 Class skill, +10 Ranks, +7 Int
+20
Class skill, Secondary Attribute, max ranks
Level 10 Ranger Heal skill
+3 Class skill, +10 Ranks, +3 Wis
+16
Non class skill, Primary Attribute, half ranks
Level 10 Sorcerer Diplomacy skill
+5 Ranks, +7 Cha
+12
Class skill, Secondary Attribute, half ranks
Level 10 Fighter Ride skill
+3 Class skill, +5 Ranks, +3 Dex
+11
Non-class skill, Secondary Attribute, half ranks
Level 10 Cleric Use Magic Device skill
+5 Ranks, +3 Cha
+8
Non-class skill, Secondary Attribute, AC Check Penalty
Level 10 Cleric Climb skill
+3 Str, -5 Breastplate, and small shield AC Check Penalty
-2
Did you notice that your fighter was only about 3 attack and 3 damage behind my Barbarian? My Barbarian with a +3 weapon and a +4 str belt. So if your character had a similar set up he'd deal near identical damage.
More damage actually if he sprung for gloves of dueling.
Did you notice that your fighter was only about 3 attack and 3 damage behind my Barbarian? My Barbarian with a +3 weapon and a +4 str belt. So if your character had a similar set up he'd deal near identical damage.
More damage actually if he sprung for gloves of dueling.
I'm not very good at noticing things, so I must admit I'm not sure what you are getting at here?
I'm not very good at noticing things, so I must admit I'm not sure what you are getting at here?Did you notice that your fighter was only about 3 attack and 3 damage behind my Barbarian? My Barbarian with a +3 weapon and a +4 str belt. So if your character had a similar set up he'd deal near identical damage.
More damage actually if he sprung for gloves of dueling.
Probably just pointing out that his "optimized" barbarian is nearly identical to your baseline. Pretty funny really.
Probably just pointing out that his "optimized" barbarian is nearly identical to your baseline. Pretty funny really.
ummm, If you read the first paragraph, you'll find:
I suspect these numbers are close to the top of what a PC is expected to produce at this level.
I would describe it more as the ceiling of what is "normal" in "regular" play. The fightin'est class, using the most damaging weapon, with number-boosting class features and feats, and an assortment of complementary number-boosting magic items! If I'm playing a 3/4 BAB class, or thinking of using only daggers or wearing hide armor or whatever, and I want to see how by combat numbers compare to a full on fighter, I would compare it to these numbers.
If I want to see how much damage a 10th level character can do... I check out the DPR Olympics threads...
So my numbers are what you would expect in regular play?
Isn't that an entirely arbitrary line in the sand though? You said yourself that there are outliers on the damage front simply from using class features like smite. Not only that, but by making your little damage ceiling, everyone who you see outpacing that ceiling will suddenly become someone who 'only cares about damage'. That's the trouble with these sorts of discussions. If there is no line delineating two groups from each other, don't invent one.
The combat ceiling is whatever the game system will bear out.
Isn't that an entirely arbitrary line in the sand though?
Of course it is! ALL of this stuff is completely arbitrary. That is why I don't use it to make judgements about people like, "they only care about this or that". This is all just a thought experiment to try and understand the CR system better, not split people into subdivisions.
EDIT:
So my numbers are what you would expect in regular play?
Didn't you just say your barbarian was like +3 or +4 higher?
Isn't that an entirely arbitrary line in the sand though?Of course it is! ALL of this stuff is completely arbitrary. That is why I don't use it to make judgements about people like, "they only care about this or that". This is all just a thought experiment to try and understand the CR system better, not split people into subdivisions.
EDIT:
So my numbers are what you would expect in regular play?Didn't you just say your barbarian was like +3 or +4 higher?
Only because of items yes. Your numbers would be similarly large if you had purchased Gloves of Dueling and had a +3 weapon. If I had spent as much as you had on offense then I'd actually have lower numbers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my shackles game our ranger uses a saw-toothed sabre. I will be sending the red mantis after him as soon as he reaches a high enough level to make it interesting. Power comes at a price after all!
Actually, the Red Mantis are perfectly okay with non-RMAs using the sawtooth sabre (it's mentioned in some of the setting guides). It makes it harder to tell which ones are the real agents, and spreads fear of their reputation.
Some friends and I have joked about RMAs randomly entering combat to disarm & correct a character using the sabres incorrectly ("They supposed to face down! Like this!").
|
Again, I'm not trying to be the BEST at anything, just trying to contribute my 25% of a 4 person party...
From my armchair, I'd suggest that rather than doing 25% of everything, one should aim for 50/25/25/0.
- In a few ways (about 1/4 of the time) you should be the party's specialist and pull about as much weight as the rest of the group put together (50%).
- In most ways (about 1/2 the time) you should be able to assist in a role or provide a backup (25%).
- In a few ways (about 1/4 of the time) you will not be able to contribute much of anything.
For example, my monk/bloodrager specializes in melee damage and sense motive. She can also provide some debuffing, battlefield control, and ranged damage, and has a few other OK skills including diplomacy, acrobatics, survival, perception, and spellcraft. She can't heal or make most knowledge or thievery checks.
This character is fun to play because I can feel good about doing a bunch of damage and for making sure that NPCs can't fool the party. I'm active in most encounters in at least a supporting role, and the things I can't do are either short scenes or are part of a larger scene in which I can contribute. It also makes sense mechanically because I'm spending most resources on the things that my classes do well, without wasting resources trying to heal or find traps. And some resources contribute to multiple roles. For example, the Frostbite spell increases damage to my unarmed strikes and also adds a debuff. Snake Style means that my Sense Motive check provides a defensive benefit as well as being useful out of combat.
Of course, some characters may be a little more or less specialized. For example, the alchemist in the same party is the specialist in buffing, ranged damage, and most of the dex or int-based skills, and also has secondary roles as a healer, battlefield controller, and melee character - the only thing he really doesn't have are social skills. But as others have pointed out, too much specialization tends to turn you into a one trick pony (not fun) and too little makes you ineffective (also not fun).
Note: Smite, Favored Enemy, and Rage will produce higher, but more situational statistics.
From my experience with barbarians, Rage is not situational in practice past level 4 or so, when you get enough rage rounds to use it in any combat of any significance.
Hey Paulicus, I love the idea of them correcting technique. Lol
They are after him because of the character's father - I don't want to say more because the player may be reading - though we have agreed that much.
The assassins coming after him is more for a plausible reason to get enchanted saw-toothed sabres in the characters grubby little hands. The player isn't a mark as no one has paid to have him killed (yet) though he may well kill the assassins so they don't interfere with his own agenda.
That said I like the idea of exotic weapons being more, well exotic. As I DM a home game not PFS and this is our first interaction in our group with red mantis I'll decide closer to the time how the red mantis react to him. At the moment I quite like NPCs giving him strange looks as if he's either incredibly brave or completely stupid. It makes for some fun roleplaying, particular as the player wants to become a respected pirate.
No doubt someone will tell me that I am wrong to do this but FMDIDGAD
No doubt someone will tell me that I am wrong
someone on these forums tell you you're playing it wrong? Never. I'm shockingly shocked with a shocking level of shock that you would even suggest such a thing.
