RAW:
"Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day."
"Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time when she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation."
Neither of these seem to stop a cleric from actually casting spontaneously; choosing the spell on the fly.
RAW, the cleric can CHOOSE every possible spell within his level and alignment restrictions and prepare/pray for them, but CAST only the NUMBER of spells per level allowed.
This seems off, as EVERY cleric would have EVERY possible cleric spell (basically) at their disposal... can anyone ref where this is countered by RAW?
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Every cleric has every possible cleric spell of every level that they know at all times, except for domain spells. This is how it has worked for a while. Notice that there is no price or method for clerics to copy spells into a spellbook, because they can prepare any cleric spell. This is the same from Druids, Shamans, Rangers, and Paladins with their respective spell lists.
Mardaddy is arguing that Clerics aren't prevented from preparing literally every spell in the morning and then choosing which ones to cast as is needed. For example, preparing fifteen level one spells but only actually casting the five he is able to on any given day.
Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
You consume a slot to prepare a spell; you don't prepare a selection of spells to choose from when consuming a spell slot.
Hue.
No. Not even a little.
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RAW:
"Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day."
"Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time when she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation."
Neither of these seem to stop a cleric from actually casting spontaneously; choosing the spell on the fly.
RAW, the cleric can CHOOSE every possible spell within his level and alignment restrictions and prepare/pray for them, but CAST only the NUMBER of spells per level allowed.
This seems off, as EVERY cleric would have EVERY possible cleric spell (basically) at their disposal... can anyone ref where this is countered by RAW?
For starters, you left out a line of the cleric's spellcasting rules:
A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
But more importantly, you're making assumptions about what it means to "prepare" a spell. You've created your own definition of "prepare" and then called it "RAW". But since "RAW" is an acronym for "rules as written", things that you come up with yourself can never be "RAW". This includes your made-up definition of "prepare".
Now, let's look at how the rules that are actually written treat "preparing" spells.
In the Magic chapter, there's a whole section titled "Preparing Divine Spells". This section specifies that, at the time you prepare your spells, you can elect to leave some of your daily spell slots unfilled and later spend additional time preparing spells in those slots. It talks about not being able to abandon a previously-prepared spell in order to prepare a different one in its place. It talks about not being able to prepare a spell in a slot that has been vacated by the casting of a spell.
It uses phrases like "fill a slot", meaning that you have to prepare your spells into specific slots, and defines "slots" as your daily allotment of spells.
It even talks about the spontaneous casting of cure/inflict spells as having to replace individual spells that you prepared, not simply counting against your total number of spells per day.
That's the actual "RAW", the rules that are actually written. Your idea that to "prepare" a spell is simply to add it to a list of spells which you can later spend slots to cast is just that: your idea. You won't find it written anywhere in the rules, and therefore it is by definition NOT part of "rules as written".
Jiggy, "A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance."
As mentioned, the PC cleric prepares ALL of them, every spell for every level he can possibly cast.
But he only actually *casts* his level limit for the day, all the other "prepared" spells are lost, because he reached his daily limit.
Rub-eta, "The reson as to why the full rules text isn't included in the Cleric enty is because more than one class uses the same rules."
That is an assumption. Does it say, "Same rules apply for clerics and wizards in XXXXX regard." ???
Believe me I *want* to point somewhere where it is spelled out. I do not absolutely need to, I can GM-rule it the way I believe it is RAI... but I would prefer to find RAW that is precise to prevent any butt-hurt.
So far everything everyone has posted says inferred, not spelled out RAW.
Nobody can help you find that which is not already there. You are misreading the rules, it is as simple as that. We'll still try for you.
You "may prepare and cast any spell" does not equal the capacity to prepare all spells. You can only prepare spells in an available spell slot. These are the spells you can then cast.
The key bit you may be missing is:
Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do ...(stuff about casting stat)...
A wizard's level limits the number of spells he can prepare and cast.
Spell slots are limits on the spells you can prepare as well as those you can cast.
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Jiggy, "A cleric must choose and prepare her spells in advance."
As mentioned, the PC cleric prepares ALL of them, every spell for every level he can possibly cast.
But he only actually *casts* his level limit for the day, all the other "prepared" spells are lost, because he reached his daily limit.
Did you actually go and read the section of the Magic chapter (not the Cleric class description, the Magic chapter of the CRB) that I cited?
It explicitly says that "preparing" a spell means putting it into a spell slot, and it explicitly says that the term "spell slot" refers your daily allotment of spells.
It can't get much more explicit than that. Your daily number of spells you can cast is your "slots", and the act of preparing spells is to put the spells into those slots at the time of preparation.
It's right there in the book. I don't understand what you think is still missing.
Believe me I *want* to point somewhere where it is spelled out.
Frankly, at this point I'm not sure I believe you. Largely because of this:
So far everything everyone has posted says inferred, not spelled out RAW.
I cite an entire section of the Magic chapter that explicitly refers to preparing your spells directly into your daily casting slots, and yet you claim that nobody's referenced "spelled-out RAW".
EDIT: Sorry if that came out sounding kinda harsh, it's just that I'm not sure where to go when I present you with the rules and you say "How come nobody's presenting me with rules?"
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Does this remind anyone of the Type thread we had last week? About how the guy was convinced "RAW" said if you changed shape you changed type?
I apologize for my reply...
In the CRB he and I were only looking in the cleric class area (sometimes paizo has rules spread out so, easy to miss the first time around) and could find nothing preventing it.
I thought I was trolling for an actual LINK so my player and I could have it at hand, but nobody would post a link, just told me "wrong."
I linked this thread to the player in question so he could read and see every possible twist and interpretation. I ended up locating the link
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html
(thank you Jiggy) and emailed it to the player.
Both of us are looooooong time AD&D 2Ed players and DM's and before we ever met one another, both of us (in different locations with different groups) ruled clerics have slots and can spontaneously cast up to their number of slots for that ruleset.
I transitioned easier away from that ruleset than he has and he was making his case per my OP.
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...but nobody would post a link
For future reference, if you're looking specifically for a link, you could always ask. Your OP says nothing about a link. Since I figured it was likely you had a Core Rulebook you were working from, I referenced the chapter rather than linking the PRD version.
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nobody would post a link, just told me "wrong."
Well, the problem is there are too many people who you can show the actual rule and will still say "I think it works my way".
So it often is pointless showing the actual rules.
The other problem is that most are aware the rules are compartmentalized. The reason for that is so they don't have to repeat whole chapters of information every time they describe things.
I like to allow a cleric to choose the spells he has in a pool for the day limited by his # of spells per day. So if it says a 3rd level cleric gets 4 zero level, 2 1st plus 1 domain, 1 2nd plus domain I would allow him to memorize that many spells then cast them however he likes.
If he wants to pray for Bless(1st), Magic Weapon(1st) and Obscuring Mist (1st Domain), I would allow him to cast Magic Weapon twice at the cost of his 2 non domain spell slots. The domain spell I treat as a one time thing. It seems more realistic that way to me.
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I like to allow a cleric to choose the spells he has in a pool for the day limited by his # of spells per day. So if it says a 3rd level cleric gets 4 zero level, 2 1st plus 1 domain, 1 2nd plus domain I would allow him to memorize that many spells then cast them however he likes.
If he wants to pray for Bless(1st), Magic Weapon(1st) and Obscuring Mist (1st Domain), I would allow him to cast Magic Weapon twice at the cost of his 2 non domain spell slots. The domain spell I treat as a one time thing. It seems more realistic that way to me.
That is very much how the Arcanist Class from the Advanced Class Guide works, but it uses arcane magic. They prepare spells in their available slots, but then can spontaneously cast from those prepared slots.
This is -not- how Clerics, Wizards, Rangers, Paladins and other prepared casters work. The reason is how magic and casting worked from the earliest days of D&D, from Jack Vance's Amber series of books.
Personally, I like that style, but it just isn't how the rules are written. As a variant or house rule, it seems great.
Note: This is a necromancy of a two-year-old thread. Perhaps starting a new one would be better?