There is an entire calculus to optimizing your WBL.
Yes, but even without a player actively trying to optimize, multiples of these items should be found as loot in regular adventuring.
It reminds me of this scenario: Level 1-3 adventure. Pile of cloth radiates magic. What is it? I've ran into more than few such occurrences in multiple sources. It'd make a pretty good trap to subvert this.
It is possible that a GM who spent most of his time playing in the 70s and 80s might be more familiar with the comparative rarity of magical items in AD&D rather than the relatively frequent nature of magic items in Pathfinder.
Looking to the Automatic Bonus Progression system for comparison, PF assumes 5th level characters have the equivalent of a +2 mental item, a +2 physical item, a +1 deflection AC item, +1 armor and weapons, and a +1 resistance item. That's assuming ABP+2, which is suggested in place of using traditional magic items.
IE a 5th level fighter can be expected to have roughly this set of gear: a +2 wisdom headband, a +2 strength belt, a +1 ring of deflection, +1 armor (typically full plate) and +1 weapon, and a +1 cloak of resistance.
Other than that, it sounds like your party has plenty of downtime healing (wands of cure light wounds) but lack in-combat effective healing (since they only have wands). You might be better off focusing on longer encounters with multiple opponents that have decent AC and/or high HP but deal comparatively low amounts of damage. Humanoids with class levels are a good option here.
Blitz-style encounters with opponents that hit hard like a hill giant or a gray render will likely cause more problems.
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Mw leather barding costs 200 gp, and you can have it in some fashionable colour too. Mind the growth spurt for the wolf at 8, he'll need new barding then. I'm working on assumption they didn't know armor existed for their furry friends, or I'd be carrying a big stick now.
This is Rock Buddy. He can be summoned using Summon Monster 2, or Summon Natures Ally 2, which all druids can spontaneously cast.
Without Augment summoning feat:
He has a +6 to hit on power attack, hits for 1d6+8, assuming both him and his foe have feet touching the ground. Which is most of the time.
If your druids took spell focus conjuration, then augment summoning:
He has +8 to hit with power attack, and hits for 1d6+11, assuming both him and his foe have feet on the ground, which is most of the time.
Those numbers do not include flanking bonuses which they can get if they get positioning right. If you need more Rock Buddys, bust out the Summon Natures Ally 3 for 1d3+1 of them.
Do the animal companions have the attack trick twice? You may ask your players to give them that or they will only attack other animals, humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Now, you can send undead after them. Still, please don't be mean by sending something that's the bane of animal companions, like a wraith.
Do your druids wildshape, and if they do, do they have natural spell?
Bottom line: At lv 5, you're supposed to have 10500 gp in gear, and at lv 6, 16000 gp. Ask them to leave a copy of their character sheets with you so you can do the fiddly maths thing to see if they don't have enough gear.
The players should take responsibility on what they need to get with their money, and not have GM provide it to them all the time.
Also, with main DPS by animal companions, please avoid sending stuff with material based, or alignment based DR. I.e DR 5/cold iron, or DR 5/good.
It is possible that a GM who spent most of his time playing in the 70s and 80s might be more familiar with the comparative rarity of magical items in AD&D rather than the relatively frequent nature of magic items in Pathfinder.
THIS!
As I was reading the previous 3-4 posts listing all the magical buffs (including Rings!), I realized I am being incredibly stingy with loot as well as guidance on what the players can buy. I've dished out some +1 weapons and some cloaks, but no rings, belts or headbands. Although I did throw in a small bag of holding just for kicks (which they loved figuring out how it worked). The funny thing is they are so new that any thing they get is like amazing to them.
Bottom line: At lv 5, you're supposed to have 10500 gp in gear, and at lv 6, 16000 gp. Ask them to leave a copy of their character sheets with you so you can do the fiddly maths thing to see if they don't have enough gear.The players should take responsibility on what they need to get with their money, and not have GM provide it to them all the time.
All the sheets are here actually and I just reviewed them (we have a game this Friday). One of the players is sitting on 6,800 gp. Saving it for a ship or something (I'm not kidding). Totally reminds me of when I started. I think I wanted to build my own Keep.
This is an incredibly helpful thread btw.
This is Rock Buddy. He can be summoned using Summon Monster 2, or Summon Natures Ally 2, which all druids can spontaneously cast.Without Augment summoning feat:
He has a +6 to hit on power attack, hits for 1d6+8, assuming both him and his foe have feet touching the ground. Which is most of the time.
If your druids took spell focus conjuration, then augment summoning:
He has +8 to hit with power attack, and hits for 1d6+11, assuming both him and his foe have feet on the ground, which is most of the time.
Those numbers do not include flanking bonuses which they can get if they get positioning right. If you need more Rock Buddys, bust out the Summon Natures Ally 3 for 1d3+1 of them.
I need to look over their spells more closely. Both Druids have SNA (one at lvl2 and one at lvl3). They are choosing animals they think are neat . . . and I just read the complete text noting that the one with lvl3 can summon several. That's huge!
I need to basically read all the available Druid and Witch spells/feats so I can give them more advice. I've not played either class.
1d3+1 Rock Buddies wants to make me play! They are going to love that.
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If you show me their animal companion sheets, I can get them bigger, faster and stronger :)
Note: Summoning is a full round action. What they summon does not appear until the next turn.
Druids can always spontaneously use Summon Natures Ally unless its some archtype (considering your players are new, archtypes are unlikely). Whether they prepared the spell in advance or not. Sorry, typo there. Summon Natures Ally 3 gets you 1d3 Rock buddies, not 1d3+1. However if they are into summoning, there's Superior Summoning.
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A few things I found about druid battlefield control. It tends to be a tad indiscriminate. I.e Entangle is a bloody 40 ft radius spread, animal companions like to be up close and personal. Granted, their high reflex saves probably means they will make the save, but still, I wouldn't do that to my animal companion. Druids traditionally are better at affecting animals, or buffing up their animal companions.
Druid spells with some control bent:
Lv 1:
Mudball
Snowball
Thunderstomp
Entangle Note it may be a little hard to use if party is melee based
Lv 2:
Burst of Radiance
Sickening Entanglement
Lv 3:
Aqueous Orb
Ice Spears
Mad Monkeys
Nauseating Trail
Greater Thunderstomp
Thorny Entanglement
Sheet Lightning
Of course, it depends on how many splatbooks you're using, most of those spells are not found in CRB.
For Summon Natures Ally I, highest dmg output = Eagles, Highest survivability = Pony
For Summon Natures Ally II, best summon = Rock Buddy!
Summon Natures Ally III, (if you aren't using it to summon more Rock Buddies), its a tie between Cows (trample is save or take dmg - attack roll not required) and Cats
Trick about summoning cats is to summon them 10 ft behind the bad guys, so they get to pounce for full attack routine of: claw, claw, bite(try to grab), after the grab is established, rake twice.
Traditional druid spells: Barkskin, Longstrider, Greater Magic Fang(for animal companion buffing, or self buffing, if you use wildshape).
Druids normally are able to spontaneously spam summon nature's ally, no preparation required.
Ya know, if characters are behind on 'required items', an easy fix is for an unexpected inheritance from a distant relation. Make 'em unique items that address current shortcomings. Even better if you 'build in' advancing bonuses as they gain levels.
Example from mythology Pathfinderized:
Excalibur and its not-so-well-known scabbard. "Build in" (via Automatic Bonus Progression) the Fighter's (or equivalent) expected bonuses, have the baldric/belt, scabbard and weapon represent all of those missing bonuses and simply shave future loot down until they're balanced at ~1/2 WBL. One druid gets a shillelagh with wrist strap that does cool stuff when wild shaped. The other gets a sickle/scythe/spear/staff of similar mein. The trickster/rogue/sneaky type gets a pair of intelligent light stabbity weapons based on the Bugs Bunny Bugsy and Mugsy cartoon that backs his play as their idea man and provider of scabbard bling and wicked narcotic blade oils. Etc.
Let them do cool stuff that's old school like building castles, carving a barony out of the savage frontier on the edge of civilization and enjoy the wonder of it all. Henchmen, hirelings, followers, all of that is missing from 3e/PF because of the sacred cow of balance.
Screw balance. Have fun. S'long as the PCs are equal to each other on the essential bonuses ("Big Six"), it all works out in the end.
If you can pull off a 1e-feel PF rules campaign, my hat's off to you. No one, not really, has published a campaign 1-20th that does exactly this. Gotta do this homebrew.
^______^
If you want to keep the feel of magic items being rare you should use some sort of automatic bonus system for the standard expected stuff.
He could, but it's probably FAR easier to just learn the actual system this time around, and figure out optional rules for the second campaign.
One idea would be to look at the optimisation guides for the pcs classes, so you have an idea of where to point them when they go up levels, and which spells they should pick. It will also point towards some viable builds. If they are new to PathFinder they will probably end up making some poor choices for Feats, Spells, etc. without some guidance.
If they are really way off beam, you might want to consider allowing retraining Feats, etc. (especially the Fighter. He will have 5 Feats, 6 if Human; but may not have the staples like Power Attack, and will probably have picked up some duds that he could really do without).
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Witch battlefield control:
The dreaded Slumber hex. It has been known to make GMs tear out a full head of hairs in despair. Mainly because hexes have unlimited uses, though most(except for evil eye), can be used once per creature within a 24 h time frame. Though, if you play it smart, once is all you need. Best combined with a Fighter with power attack and a reach weapon (i.e a hooked lance with a x4 crit multiplier). If the monster next to the fighter fails its will save against the slumber hex, the fighter 5 ft steps back, and CDGs. The DC to survive the CDG attempt will require a nat 20, on the monster's part, to suceed.
Even stuff like Evil eye can lower monsters attack so they are less likely to hit. Misfortune, when combined with cackle to keep misfortune going once it lands, is the best way to tell the GM, "Roll twice to hit, take the worst roll." After that, crits rarely happen on the party :)
For actual spells itself:
Lv 1 Spells:
Ear Piercing Scream - Good to throw on casters
Mudball
Snowball
Web Bolt
Lv 2 Spells:
Glitterdust - don't leave home without it!
Euphoric cloud - if you like magic mushrooms, a little too much...
Blindness/Deafness - Blind is a nasty, nasty condition to inflict on spellcasters.
Web - this one's rather indiscriminate
Tremor blast
Lv 3 Spells:
Ice Spears
Nauseating Trail
Stinking cloud- The more smelly version of euphoric cloud
Rain of Frogs - for distraction effect
Suggestion - "These are not the droids you're looking for"
I skipped Deep Slumber since slumber hex works a lot better. Loathsome veil isn't really very useful unless you're a Heavens Oracle with Awesome Display revelation.
Druids normally are able to spontaneously spam summon nature's ally, no preparation required.
When you say spam, do you mean they can spontaneously cast SNA more than once (replacing other spells)?
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One idea would be to look at the optimisation guides for the pcs classes, so you have an idea of where to point them when they go up levels, and which spells they should pick. It will also point towards some viable builds. If they are new to PathFinder they will probably end up making some poor choices for Feats, Spells, etc. without some guidance.
If they are really way off beam, you might want to consider allowing retraining Feats, etc. (especially the Fighter. He will have 5 Feats, 6 if Human; but may not have the staples like Power Attack, and will probably have picked up some duds that he could really do without).
You know what? That bums me out, thoroughly. Especially the part I bolded. Did you all not read that they are having a kick-arse good time, as is?! They thoroughly enjoyed figuring out what a bag of holding does! When's the last time you enjoyed figuring out the magical properties of a magic item so common, some might call it mundane?! Why point them to optimization of characters if they are having a good time NOT optimizing?! Let them build their characters with what others might consider "tragic flaws," fiddling around with some of those feats nobody would touch with the proverbial 10' pole. So what if they are "way off beam." They are having FUN, and that's the point. Run a game for them where everything is way off beam. Run a game that caters to their characters being weak and possibly built completely below what others would consider par. That's one of the things I strongly dislike about some factions of the gaming community. Not every game has to be run by the WBL standards, or the APL standards. That's one of the great things, imho, about these rules. You can do some really wonky stuff with them, and have a crapton (that's the scientific term for it) of fun. Sure if they enter into someone else's game, they might get laughed out of the building, but then they can just run a game of their own, wonky, and terribly enjoyable.
[You know what? That bums me out, thoroughly.
You're not alone. I agree with you. I've never had a group that tried to follow the perfect path of optimization. Well, actually I did once, they played for about 2 books of a 6-book Adventure Path, by which time NOBODY was playing the same character they started (not due to death; they just got bored) and by the end of the 2nd book everybody was bored with the campaign.
That doesn't happen to my non-optimizing groups. Those guys finish entire APs and some of them are still playing the character they started with. Oddly, some of them are the same players who bailed out of the campaign with the optimized group.
I guess other GMs have different experiences, and even have different groups - somewhere out there, I'm sure there is a group of players with hyper-optimized OP badass characters having a great time playing entire campaigns up to and beyond 20th level. I've just personally not seen such a group play that way and enjoy the game long enough to finish a campaign (adventure path).
So, at least for me, the best games I've run and/or played in have been groups of players having fun without caring about optimization and especially without ever reading online optimization guides. The players I've seen have the most fun don't ever even use the word "build" with reference to their character.
I like it that way. Many players like it that way. Obviously your players like it that way so don't change it and don't recommend class guides or optimized builds.
That said...
YOU might want to read some of these things so that YOU could suggest to the players that a few things they've done aren't working out perfectly and suggest alternatives that will work out better. Ultimately, every game runs smoother if the PCs are at least partially optimized for success; dungeons get boring then the PCs can't handle simple ordinary challenges. Unless, of course, you want to be constantly changing the encounters to simpler, easy challenges - but that path might lead to stagnation over any length of time.
That said...
YOU might want to read some of these things so that YOU could suggest to the players that a few things they've done aren't working out perfectly and suggest alternatives that will work out better. Ultimately, every game runs smoother if the PCs are at least partially optimized for success; dungeons get boring then the PCs can't handle simple ordinary challenges. Unless, of course, you want to be constantly changing the encounters to simpler, easy...
This is where I want to land. Like MendedWall12 said, it *was* a ton of fun to see them figure out what a bag of holding does. And it took me back to a very happy place when I first discovered DnD when a friend ran me through Tomb of Horrors and my curiosity killed me immediately ;)
I think I ran through that dungeon like 20 times over the course of two weeks and never made it through, but I was sold on DnD from there.
There's a ton of advice and pointers in this thread that are spawning an education for me as a (Pathfinder) DM, that I can then pass on to the players so that I can keep moving them through the levels without making major changes to a lot of the existing modules and APs I am using. But it also provides me with more ways to accommodate their curiosity and make them successful while still having fun (buying ponies and saving for castles).
Drop more cure wands into the mix, the druid and witch can both use them
Check out the unchained feat that opens up new uses of the heal skill
Consider Leadership and a chirurgeon archetype alchemist cohort who isn't very combat capable so best kept safe at camp but can send them along the adventure with extracts that are better than cure potions.
Druids normally are able to spontaneously spam summon nature's ally, no preparation required.When you say spam, do you mean they can spontaneously cast SNA more than once (replacing other spells)?
Yeppers.
And it took me back to a very happy place when I first discovered DnD when a friend ran me through Tomb of Horrors and my curiosity killed me immediately ;)
I think I ran through that dungeon like 20 times over the course of two weeks and never made it through, but I was sold on DnD from there
You should run the girls through the Tomb of Horrors. See if they can beat your record...
Just kidding. There's not even ONE pony in there...
You know that dungeon was half joke, half "impossible test", right? This year is the 40th anniversary of that iconic death trap. Gygax wrote it for a convention. It was designed to be impossible. Like playing Space Invaders or Pac Man or Asteroids - sooner or later it gets so hard you die and, if you're lucky, you get a high score. Same with Tomb of Horrors. You will die, but if you get farther than anyone else got, you could win a prize. Probably a set of polyhedron dice, or a t-shirt if you're lucky.
I played it and GMed it too. At the time it was awesome.
I'm pretty sure the game has evolved since then. A Pathfinder group would handle half of the traps with a Take-10 die roll and the other half would kill them "unfairly" because those are the traps that don't follow the established Pathfinder rules (like the no-save room with gold and silver mist, which didn't kill PCs but incapacitated them and forced them out of the dungeon - no fun and not "Pathfinder-legal").
It's probably not a good adventure for beginners (but somehow you got hooked), and probably not a good game for pony-seeking pre-teen girls (unless they're also masochists in disguise).
You know what? That bums me out, thoroughly. Especially the part I bolded.
I just find it sad that you think optimising their characters will kill the fun. Have you not read the thread, especially the part where the GM said he was struggling to avoid a TPK? Do you seriously think they would enjoy the game then? Why can't they enjoy figuring out a bag of holding and still have marginally optimised characters? It is a fallacy that optimisation kills the game, and they don't need to follow the guides slavishly, but it is a good starting point for improved performance, hopefully averting disaster.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with others that optimising their gear comes first, or would you object to that? after all, they are having fun as is, why should they optimise their equipment?
All I am saying is that may not be enough, and looking at their builds is also important. Ultimately, it's their character, and they are the ones who have to build it according to their whims, but there is no reason the GM cannot suggest a better path to what they want to achieve. Do they want a kick-ass combat monster who charges the enemy and lays about with his sword, felling foes left and right? point them to Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave etc. If they want a hit and runner point them to Dodge, Mobility, Vital Strike, etc. but with over 400 Feats a new player is just going to be overwhelmed and will just grab the first Feat they come across that looks marginally useful. Similarly the spells. What kind of spells do they want to use? Do they want to summon lots of critters and buff them (and their allies), do they want to control the battlefield, do they want to lay down damage? A quick look at the guides will tell you the best options in each category. It will enable them to play their character according to the style they want and still be able to handle what's thrown at them. That's what optimisation means.
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I think the issue is the CR guidelines that D6 is following are based on if the party is at WBL with decent tactics. Sure he could adjust, but he's new to this, so adjusting on the fly may not be optimal, nor fair to the players as he may under/over adjust difficulty. Teaching them a few tactics, fixing WBL should enable D6 to run things more easily.
For the witch - I think teach her to use evil eye, slumber hex and glitterdust. For the druids, teach them to summon more animal/rock buddies, and how to buff their furry friends (I'm sure they are very fond of them, aren't they?) :) Should be sufficient for most adventuring purposes.
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A sample reference for Armor Class costs
AC comes, at a fundamental level, in the following forms which are easy to gain: Dex Bonus; Armor Bonus; Natural Armor Bonus; Deflection Bonus; and potentially a Shield Bonus. Yes, there are Insight, Sacred, Profane, Competence, Dodge and all sorts of other bonuses, but the above bonuses are the ones that are easy to pay gold for and retain.
This is a simple basic guide to maximizing AC for gold.
Two builds are presented here – With Shield, and without Shield. Additionally, there is a third build here using Defender to accentuate your AC via an off-hand weapon, or on a shield.
First is going to be choice of armor.
The optimal types of armor are: Light Armor (all varieties add up to +8 Armor/Dex allowed); Breastplate (Medium armor, +6 AC/+3 Dex = +9); and Full Plate (+9 AC, +1 Dex = +10).
Note: Celestial Armor completely borks this table if you have the Dex to top it off, coming in at +13!!
First thing to point out is that Mithral is only a viable AC option if you have the Dex to max it out, OR you need your armor to be lighter for movement purposes.
Classes that are going to get exceedingly high Dex scores are actually better off with lighter armor that allows them to maximize use of their Dexterity at later levels. The exception to this is the Fighter; because Armor Training expands the maximum Dex bonus, Fighters typically aren’t going to need Mithral armor until very late levels, when their Dex scores exceed either 20 or 24 (Full Plate/Breastplate).
Maximizing AC is based on costs to gain an extra point of AC. These costs are:
+1 Armor bonus: 1000 gp, +3000 gp; +5000 Gp; +7000 gp; +9000 gp.
+1 Shield bonus: As +1 Armor
+1 Natural Armor: 2000 gp; +6000 gp; +10000 gp; +14000 gp; +18000 gp.
+1 Deflection bonus: As Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Dexterity bonus: 4000/6000 gp (Dex +2); +12000/+18000 gp (Dex +4); +20,000/+30,000 gp (Dex+6). Prices are stand-alone/adding onto a belt.
Mithral Armor (Total bonus +2): Light, +1000 gp, Medium Armor +4000 gp, Heavy armor +9000 gp:
+1 Defender on Weapon used for defense: 8000 gp; +10,000 gp; +14,000 gp; +18,000 gp; +22,000 gp. (ending at +5 Defender)
There are two other AC bonuses you can get in the core game: +1 Insight AC from a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, and +1 Luck Bonus to AC from a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier. Both are Slotless, and cost 5k, the same price as improving a piece of armor from +2 to +3. Both also grant Touch AC, and so should be taken before other AC improvement.
Now, we simply take them and add them on in series.
If your starting Dex is 20 and you wear light armor; Immediately buy a chain shirt.
If your starting Dex is 17 and you can wear Medium Armor, buy a breastplate.
If your Starting Dex is 13 or lower, buy Full Plate.
Note that if you are a Fighter, you need to increase the minimum Dex for Mithral by your Armor Training bonus.
Base:
Chain Shirt, 19 Dex = +8 AC
Breastplate, 17 Dex = +9 AC
Full Plate, 13 Dex = +10 AC
Bonuses are listed in the order you add them, with Defender bonuses last as an optional (you should take them before similar items if possible). Basically, you want Deflection before anything; Dexterity next; and Nat Armor and Armor Enhancements equally. This is because the prior two affect your Touch AC (so does Defender) and the latter do not.
Add Cost AC Total GP Total
Mithral Light Armor 1000 (+2) (+1000)
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +2 3000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +3 5000
Mithral Medium Armor 4000 (+2) (+4000, Dex 20)
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +4 8000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +5 12000
Mithral Heavy Armor 9000 (+2) +9000, Dex 17+
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, +1 Insight 5000 +6 17,000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Solider, +1 Luck 5000 +7 22,000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 27000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +9 33000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +10 39000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +11 46000
(+1 Defender) (+8000) (+1*)
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +12 55000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +13 65000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +14 75000
(+2 Defender) 10000 (+18000) (+2*)
+4 Dex booster 12000 +15 87000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +16 101000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +17 115000
(+3 Defender) 14000 (+32000) (+3*)
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +18 133000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +19 151000
(+4 Defender) 18000 (+50000) (+4*)
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +20 171000
(+5 Defender) 22000 (+72000) (+5*)
Totals: Light Armor: Mithral (or Darkleaf Cloth) Studded Leather +5, Dex 24 = AC 38, 162k
Medium Armor: Mithral Breastplate+5, Dex 20 = AC 38, 165k
Full Plate: M. Full Plate, Dex 16 = AC 39, 170k
Fighter Armor Training +4
Note: Needs +5 Dex (level/inherent) on all!
Mithral Chain Shirt, Dex 30. AC 40.
Mithral BP, Dex 28, AC 41
Mithral Full Plate, Dex 24, AC 42
Note that Mithral Celestial Armor basically adds +2 to all of this.
Mithral is basically needed to max out Dex bonus for Dex builds. For fighters, Armor Training basically means their Dex will seldom be high enough to max out their armor.
Using an off-hand weapon as a Defender adds 72,000 gp to the defense cost, but the +5 AC is significant.
For Shield builds, the cost is negligible (+25000 gp for a +5) and the AC is significant (+6 or 7), resulting in a much quicker rise in AC.
ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone 5000 +8 21000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000 +9 26000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +10 31000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +11 36000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +12 42000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +13 48000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +14 55000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +15 62000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +16 71000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +17 80000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +18 90000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +19 100000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +20 112000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +21 126000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +22 140000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +23 158000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +24 176000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +25 196000
Assuming use of a Heavy Shield for +2 AC, at 12k layout you’re +3 AC ahead of the Shield-less build. At 50k you are +4 ahead. At 100k you are +5 ahead, at 150k you are +6 ahead, and you max out at +7 ahead.
Note that if you put Defender on your shield, and simply don’t attack with it, the numbers can look something like this:
Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender
Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.
And all this is before Dodge, Shield Specialization, and incidental bonuses from spells, templates, defensive fighting, and whatnot. Note that to max Dex from Armor Training, any fighter is going to need Inherent bonuses to his Dex, unless he raises Dex instead of Str.
If he does both, then he probably wants a lighter grade of armor to max out the Dodge-based bonus of Dex, which is more effective against touch/ranged touch attacks.
A wall of text filled with numbers
Oy! Posts like that make my head hurt, and make me want to play a different game.
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A wall of text filled with numbersOy! Posts like that make my head hurt, and make me want to play a different game.
I found it useful. ;)
It's useful if the thread was on incremental AC investment; not sure it's essential to lay out all the proofs for a GM who's new to pathfinder and looking for answers. Just say invest in multiple stacking AC bonuses...that's what you said in one sentence and is much easier to read and digest. There are plenty of guides that spell out the detail if people want to know more.
It is possible that a GM who spent most of his time playing in the 70s and 80s might be more familiar with the comparative rarity of magical items in AD&D rather than the relatively frequent nature of magic items in Pathfinder.THIS!
As I was reading the previous 3-4 posts listing all the magical buffs (including Rings!), I realized I am being incredibly stingy with loot as well as guidance on what the players can buy. I've dished out some +1 weapons and some cloaks, but no rings, belts or headbands. Although I did throw in a small bag of holding just for kicks (which they loved figuring out how it worked). The funny thing is they are so new that any thing they get is like amazing to them.
It might be a good idea to introduce the Automatic Bonus Progression rules to your campaign; with it, your players no longer need to worry about organizing their gold purchases as strictly as Pathfinder usually requires and you can focus on giving them interesting magic items with some scarcity rather than dumping loads of magic items that don't do anything other than give a boring yet necessary +1 to a statistic.
It's useful if the thread was on incremental AC investment; not sure it's essential to lay out all the proofs for a GM who's new to pathfinder and looking for answers. Just say invest in multiple stacking AC bonuses...that's what you said in one sentence and is much easier to read and digest. There are plenty of guides that spell out the detail if people want to know more.
IT's about the 10th time I've posted that...people always asking about AC and defenses and how to improve them.
And it IS one of those Guides. Probably the first one that laid out the math and what to do.
Sure, the basic idea is simple: Buy the next +1 of AC that is cheapest, which a lot of the time is counter-intuitive.
So, I just broke it down for people.
Keep in mind that I only used official items, so you can see exactly what to buy next and there's no question about legality.
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Powergaming warning, exploits ahead!
If you really, really want to get high AC for cheap cost, and you can make custom items, you use SIMPLe: You simply buy +1 increments of Sacred, Insight, Morale, Profane, and Luck bonuses, none of which are standard means to increase AC (the standards are Armor Enhancement, Deflection and Nat Armor, in addition to stat bonuses), in addition to the above.
It's the standard method for increasing AC at Epic levels in 3.5. For example, +1 to those 5 types is basically equal to a +5 Ring of Deflection. The cost would be 2500 gp + 4x3750 if you put it on a ring, or 17,500 gp....vs 50k for a +5 Ring of Deflection, providing the same amount of touch AC.
A +2 to all of the above is 10k +4x15k, or 70k, providing +10 To touch AC for slightly less then a +5 RoD and Am of NatAC.
Naturally, this blows AC advancement vs TH out of the water, and is why I laugh whenever people say TH outpaces AC. No...that's only if you restrict yourself to the classic 'big 3' of AC.
There are way, way more modifiers to increase AC then there are to increase ability to hit, and they are much cheaper, also.
==Aelryinth
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Bit too flashy for a DMPC I think. The whole thing was supposed to be about the PCs. I think they just need some lessons on tactics and a little better gear, not really DMPC help. In fact, I'm not even in favor for a cleric healing them, it just makes them more dependant on in combat healing, which hinders development of good combat plans.
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@Aelryinth: spoiler tags are your friend for stuff like that.
ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone 5000 +8 21000
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000 +9 26000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +10 31000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +11 36000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +12 42000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +13 48000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +14 55000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +15 62000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +16 71000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +17 80000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +18 90000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +19 100000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +20 112000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +21 126000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +22 140000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +23 158000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +24 176000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +25 196000
Assuming use of a Heavy Shield for +2 AC, at 12k layout you’re +3 AC ahead of the Shield-less build. At 50k you are +4 ahead. At 100k you are +5 ahead, at 150k you are +6 ahead, and you max out at +7 ahead.
Note that if you put Defender on your shield, and simply don’t attack with it, the numbers can look something like this:
Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender
Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.
And all this is before Dodge, Shield Specialization, and incidental bonuses from spells, templates, defensive fighting, and whatnot. Note that to max Dex from Armor Training, any fighter is going to need Inherent bonuses to his Dex, unless he raises Dex instead of Str.
Let's those who want the info to pull it out, and others to see a much smaller post.
@D6: Another spell combo that is not so obvious, but very useful: Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist.
Hit the enemies in an area with Faerie Fire, then fill the area with Obscuring Mist, so the enemies get no benefit from the concealment, but the PCs do.