So then it's not until the final utterance that the spell slot (or material components, for that matter) gets expended? Then how come damaging the enemy caster partway through casting (interrupting him before the same final utterance) still costs him his spell slot?I like that analogy for a readied attack, but I'm not sure it works so well for a readied spell. Probably some other stuff too.You get your spell components out, you wave your arms, fingers, legs, and toes, you chant your incantation, and you hold, waiting to utter the last syllable and make the final motions until the precise moment you wish to execute the spell.
I'm gonna go with failing the concentration check causes you to f up. Ie, you make a mistake. Vs, you choose to conserve the effort and material.
Non-spell casting example: you have a hot dog with chili, cheese, mustard, and onions. The toppings are stacked high above the protective walls of the bun. You pick up the hot dog and lift it toward your mouth but at that moment a squirrel makes a meal of your bare toe. You scream in pain and flail your arms. As your arms go up you realize the implications for your hot dog. You try to resist the urge to throw your arms in the air but you simply cannot. Your hot dog flys through the air and lands in the dirt.
Even though you didn't eat the hot dog, the hot dog was consumed in this process.
Had you simply ::decided:: to place your hot dog on the counter you could have done so. And then you could have consumed it later.
Thus, "standard action" can't imply very much about how much time is used
This is completely true.
Pathfinder surely has no rules for the duration of time a standard action requires. Or any other action. The closest it comes is that bit about swift actions taking a little more effort than free actions which still doesn't put an AMOUNT of time on any actions.
We can draw some conclusions mathematically, such as a Standard action must be more than 3 seconds long or you could have two of them in a 6 second round. A move action must be no longer than 3 seconds or you could NOT have two of them in the same round, but longer than 2 seconds or you could have 3 of them. Free actions are minuscule since you can have multiple free actions AND still take a full-round action, so they're just a fraction of a second. Swift actions are a little longer but at least half a second (or you could take a standard, move, and 2 swift actions in a round). Etc.
But why bother? Then you get weird things that it takes exactly as long to pick up a dagger from a table as it takes to walk 30', which is silly.
So it's safer for all our sanity, such as we have left after these forums are through with us, to just keep it abstract.
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What skill or ability would be checked and the margin of possible error on a failure are unknowns.
I'd use the same skill check required of a 5th level wizard casting fireball to place it with pin point accuracy at a distance of 465' away from him.
I'd use the same skill check required of a 5th level wizard casting fireball to place it with pin point accuracy at a distance of 465' away from him.What skill or ability would be checked and the margin of possible error on a failure are unknowns.
But in that case the wizard is not moving towards the ground at terminal velocity as he does it. The fireball case is a matter of spatial awareness, which for most people is far easier than split second timing.
Spatial awareness misguesses, at those kinds of distances, for the vast majority of people, will far exceed the radius of the fireball.
For a baseball player swinging at a fastball (95 MPH) his timing isn't so bad as to swing 60' before or 60' after the ball crosses over the plate, it would be measured more in distances of 10'-20' at most. (Yes, I'm making a rough guess here, but considering the distance from mound to plate is 60' 6", and some batters swing to soon, reaction time is easily within the 60' distance travelled).
Terminal velocity (in a skydiving position) is only about 30% faster than that - 122 MPH. He could swallow "30'" to late from his 60' mark and still be perfectly fine. 30' to early and at worst he is taking 3d6 (again, if that is the kind of realism you want in your game, though a misjudged attempt is more likely to result in reacting to slowly where he is still perfectly fine.)
For what it's worth, terminal velocity while face down is about 55m/s. A CL1 potion will keep you from falling fast for 60ft worth of distance. You could comfortably take another 40ft or so of fall easily after the effect runs out(probably more than that, but lets say 40ft, or 4d6 damage). That is a 100ft window, or around 30 meters. You have over half a second to chug the potion and land without too much damage (if any). This isn't actually too extreme a task on that basis.
So GMs do decide when initiative begins then.Adjudicate: Make a formal judgment or decision about a problem or disputed matter.
So, all that means is that the GM can veto your declaration of beginning initiative.
DMs being this uptight makes me do stupid things to enforce them to follow make a ruling my character should be able to start on their own.
A Dm not allowing me to go into initiative i would respond by. Do you want me to use a dirty trick and piss off someone so on my next round i can use my move action to run off the airship and ready an action? Or do you wanna take the game serious and play together and let me skip the rule lawyering silliness?
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Do you want me to use a dirty trick and piss off someone so on my next round i can use my move action to run off the airship and ready an action? Or do you wanna take the game serious and play together and let me skip the rule lawyering silliness?
No, I want you to just use the damn potion and move on.
Do you want me to use a dirty trick and piss off someone so on my next round i can use my move action to run off the airship and ready an action? Or do you wanna take the game serious and play together and let me skip the rule lawyering silliness?No, I want you to just use the damn potion and move on.
My post was not directed at you, but DMs that need to micromanage the game.
I think it's from 3.5 rules, actually, but it's partially supported by Pathfinder RAW. Mathematically, falling on Earth amounts to something like 565' in the first 6 seconds and about 1,200' in the next 6 seconds and in every 6-second round after that too (terminal velocity). Or something like that.
But I think 3.5 simplified it to 500' in round one and 1,000' in each round after the first.
Pathfinder has this:
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
I think that is a copy/paste from 3.5 to Pathfinder but in a quick search I didn't find the rest of the old rules so maybe those didn't get copied over. Or maybe I missed it somewhere.
In any case, since most spells are just a Standard Action, this seems to imply you need 500' to pull off a Standard Action, not a full round, so I guess it's not very good support after all.
And falling damage maxes out at 20d6 at 200 feet -- further distance only matters for how long it takes you to fall.
And there is rules support for timing a fall being more difficult than aiming a spell -- casting a spell (other than an immediate action spell) while falling requires a concentration check, while simply aiming a spell does not.
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Google-fu attributes it to a 3.5 FAQ.
Here is the relevant FAQ document.
Here's something from the deleted flying rules.
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.
I wasn't aware you could drink potions mid-fall.
Alright, put on this chainmail! Now swing this greatsword for ten minutes!
"Thud"I think he's dead. :(
Don't Drink and Dive..
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=drinking+while+skydiving&qpvt=Drink ing+while+skydiving&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=2D2476820203DEF4CC902 D2476820203DEF4CC90
Wow.... I forget about this thread for one weekend and there are a LOT more reactions than I expected. I'll get back to you guys after I read every comment. :)
Casting Feather Fall is an immediate action, as is activating a Snapleaf. Drinking a Potion, however, is a standard action - so I'm not sure I'd even allow a potion of Feather Fall to be usable at all mid-fall. A higher level one what would last a few rounds, might be useful to be consumed then jump off the cliff, but that's as far as I'd let it go.
For starters I agree with Orfamay Quest that its more fun for the player if I accept it like that. I just wanted to know what others thought regarding this.
Bbangerter I love how you worded that. Definitely suggesting that one for fun and giggles
CraziFuzzy, if you can't use a feather falling potion midfall then what is the point of getting it?
Personally I'd go with the fun route but only to a certain degree.
I'd ask the player to portrait how this goes and I'd add some variables like wind speeds and such. A reflex save against a gust of wind to prevent him from dropping the bottle but that's it.
Though he never said anything about where he was landing ^^ but that's a different story alltogether
CraziFuzzy, if you can't use a feather falling potion midfall then what is the point of getting it?
Feather Fall is not ONLY used in the 'oops, I failed that climb check' moment. It can be used as a standard action as well, prior to the fall. Say you're infiltrating a castle. To escape from atop a tower or wall, you use a standard action to drink your potion of Feather Fall, then use your move action to jump to the ground.
CraziFuzzy, if you can't use a feather falling potion midfall then what is the point of getting it?Feather Fall is not ONLY used in the 'oops, I failed that climb check' moment. It can be used as a standard action as well, prior to the fall. Say you're infiltrating a castle. To escape from atop a tower or wall, you use a standard action to drink your potion of Feather Fall, then use your move action to jump to the ground.
This doesn't work. You need to be in freefall to be a valid target, so the potion only does anything when you drink it while already falling.
What Snowblind said and also the person I am discussing wanted to do this knowing fully well that he'd jump off while being a several hundreds of feet in the air.
I'd let it work if they put the potion in their mouth, jumped, then swallowed. As far as pulling it out and trying to drink it mid air, I'd most likely allow it as long as the fall is really far (falling a few dozen feet won't give you the time, but a few hundred or more might).
All in all, I would say that feather fall is better used as an actual prepared spell rather than a potion. Usually when you need it it's an immediate emergency, so being able to cast it without pulling out a potion or wand or whatever else is probably going to be the most efficient.
Crimeo I didn't know tbat item. Noted for other reasons ^^
Some effects simply don't make sense as potions. There are a few Feather Fall based magical items, all of them either have a continuous effect, a contingent effect, or are worn in quick reach and activated with an immediate action. I see no reason to try to shoehorn a Potion of Feather Fall around what makes sense. If you must, make a 'Lesser Snapleaf', that removes the invisibility effect, and price it lower accordingly.
In theory you could simply ready an action and drink it.
As a GM I would probably ask for both a dexterity and a wisdom check, since I imagine drinking a potion while free falling and trying to time something just in time to prevent being splattered would be tricky. Not even sure the potion will come out if you are trying to pour it out really.
Both DC 10 checks seem right to me, without armor check penalties since I feel nice today.
I'd use acrobatics, as that's already involved in jumping and falling. At 500' I'd use DC 20 to avoid any damage. The damage they take is based on what they target they hit. DC 15 for 1d6, DC 10 2d6 and DC 5 3d6.
I'd use acrobatics, as that's already involved in jumping and falling. At 500' I'd use DC 20 to avoid any damage. The damage they take is based on what they target they hit. DC 15 for 1d6, DC 10 2d6 and DC 5 3d6.
Acrobatics to drink the potion.. nah, but sleight of hand would work for me.
I'd definitely make it something dex based.
I'd transfer the potion from the bottle to my mouth before jumping, and try to swallow just before landing.
I'd transfer the potion from the bottle to my mouth before jumping, and try to swallow just before landing.
That might work, GM willing. Though it would cheat the standard action economy a little, it wouldn't be too far fetched for a GM to rule it will only keep it's magic for a few rounds out off the container.
I don't believe a potion's magic is contingent on it being in a vial. Nothing about the vial is special or magical, it's just a container.
Although this delayed swallowing reminds me of the alchemical accoltion (spelling?) spell that is just repeated backwash. One of my GMs who is a germaphobe houseruled it as an evil spell.
I don't believe a potion's magic is contingent on it being in a vial. Nothing about the vial is special or magical, it's just a container.
Although this delayed swallowing reminds me of the alchemical accoltion (spelling?) spell that is just repeated backwash. One of my GMs who is a germaphobe houseruled it as an evil spell.
lol, no nothing really. it is just something I might rule on to prevent abuse. I'd give it a few rounds but not more to prevent too much silliness.
I think that's fair Remco. I mean, just try to walk around with a mouthful of water all day. You can't talk, breath through your mouth, swallow, etc. After a while you'll just swallow. Plus it will slowly become diluted with saliva.
CraziFuzzy, you may feel like that but I don't think there is anything wrong with something that is already accepted as a thing in Pathfinder.
But since we are mainly repeating previous statements, I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions :)
I'd go with the environmental including reflex check and maybe some other things depending on how the player words the action.
All things being equal and the player hasn't got a track record of power gaming or cheesy rule manipulation then I would allow it. I would also advise that if it becomes a habit then I would include a check for misjudgements or mishaps and devise a mini ruleset out of the session.
Given that accurate distance judgement is part of the game for many things including ranged attacks and spells it seems only consistent that they can judge their distance above ground. However they can't assume exactly how long it will take for the potion to take effect, this takes skill or luck.
I would suggest that the Fly skill is probably the most relevant skill though I can imagine arguments for other skills such as acrobatics or even knowledge (arcana) but anyway I would allow the player to state their target height and whether they are likely to drink the potion early or late. If they make their skill check then they judged correctly, but if they failed then for every 1 they have failed the roll by they are 10 feet out in their judgement. High if they drank early and low if they drank late.
If the drinker had a target height of 60 feet and drank early then they would have a fall from where the feather fall ended i.e. 10 to 200 feet up in the air. If they chose late then they might be okay if they failed by 6 or less as they would be in the feather fall zone, but would otherwise hit the ground at full speed. The safest choice then would probably to have 1 foot as the target height and go early so they have the greatest chance of their failed roll still being at a height where feather fall would land them safely.
I'd transfer the potion from the bottle to my mouth before jumping, and try to swallow just before landing.That might work, GM willing. Though it would cheat the standard action economy a little, it wouldn't be too far fetched for a GM to rule it will only keep it's magic for a few rounds out off the container.
It would still take a Standard Action to swallow, for game balance reasons. It just removes the manual dexterity aspect.
I know it requires preparation but this is a great reason to own one of my favorite items, the sipping jacket!
I know it requires preparation but this is a great reason to own one of my favorite items, the sipping jacket!
Very nice item indeed!!