Yes, agree. In the same vein of thought, why can shamans cast 9th lvl spells? Investigators also have 3/4 BAB but can only cast 6th lvl spells. Very inconsistent indeed.
yeah, the warpriest didn't do a good job of blending the two. It's a cleric that trades some casting to do swift buffs and bonus feats.
Yes, agree. In the same vein of thought, why can shamans cast 9th lvl spells? Investigators also have 3/4 BAB but can only cast 6th lvl spells. Very inconsistent indeed.
I'll just point out that shaman is not a special case: clerics, druids and oracles also cast 9th level spells and still have 3/4 BAB. It's a thing with divine casters, apparently. (Oh, and investigators don't cast spells, they have alchemy.)
One is a base class, the other is a (bad) prestige class you can enter after level 6 at the very earliest. One is a new class, the other is a relic of third edition. Both of them make most full-BAB characters cry.
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Seriously?! Both of these are terrible comparisons! In the first case you're comparing a base class with a prestige class, completely ignoring all other features either of them have. What's worse, you're ignoring the fact that the Arcane Archer character must have levels in a class that most likely will not offer full BAB itself. The flavor actually makes sense for the character as a whole, not just the AA part of it.
In the second case you're (I realize you're two different individuals) comparing a divine full caster to an 'arcane' skillmonkey, again ignoring all other features either class have to offer to balance it out.
Are they balanced though? No, they're really not...
In the end, what I think the two of you really want is a full BAB Warpriest and a 9th lvl casting Investigator... I say this because you've both chosen very specific classes, which are still considered good and balanced, to complain about, on a forum where the userbase acknowledges that not all classes were created equal and argue about it every second thread or so. Its really hard to miss. Some see the imbalance as a feature but most consider it a bug. Go ahead and discuss it with your DMs if you feel it isn't fair class X gets Y but Z does not (likely still ignoring all other features either class have to offer) and try to change things for the better, because even if we were all on your side on these matters it wouldn't change anything.
P.S. I'm unusually snarky, yet still mild, in this post because you've chosen a clickbait title for this thread. You gave no information what this thread was about 'forcing' people to open it. Next time, actually include what you want to discuss in the title. It saves you from snark and me from wasting time if it turns out I don't give a crap.
Yes, agree. In the same vein of thought, why can shamans cast 9th lvl spells?
Because Paizo gave birth to a monster..... looking at things objectively making Shamans 6th level casting is entirely appropriate.... they have far too many goodies to be 9th level casters...
This isn't a rules questions.
Also, warpriest used to be full BAB, with their deity's favored weapon. Then the higher ups decided that that was clearly too powerful.
Yes, agree. In the same vein of thought, why can shamans cast 9th lvl spells?Because Paizo gave birth to a monster..... looking at things objectively making Shamans 6th level casting is entirely appropriate.... they have far too many goodies to be 9th level casters...
Nope.
Shamans get to choose a lot of goodies from a long list....but most of their choices are absolute s~*@.
You also have to look at it like this...
Arcane Archer (examples of hundreds of routes)
-> Earliest level is 8 when mixed with 1 Casting Class, 6 Full BAB
--> 1 Casting Class (0.5 or 0.75 BAB), 6 levels of Full BAB
----> This means at level 9 (AA 2), you finally have CL2 and BAB +8
-> Can be accessed with Magus or whatnot
--> Earliest level is now 9
---> This means at level 10 (AA 2), you have CL9 and BAB +8
----> Extending this out, Level 20 you have +17 BAB, 6th Level Spells, and +17 CL
-----> Route dovetails nicely
-> Can be accessed by straight Wizard (lol)
--> Earliest level is now 13
---> This means at 15 (AA 2), you have CL14 and BAB +8
----> Extending this out, Level 20 you have +14 BAB, 9th level spells, and +17 CL
-----> Hardest and slowest route
There are hundreds of permutations but you also have to remember that you lose CL early on, you lose spell levels early on (if you aren't a Magus), you have delayed spell progression, you can't enter until 7-13, you have feat prerequisites, and you lose out on higher level abilities from base classes.
So while you do get full BAB, there is a tradeoff.
Not a rules question, but maybe because spell casting is not directly linked to BAB. It's far more complex than that - unless you really think wizards need 3/4 BAB and armour? Because you know, clerics have 3/4 BAB, can wear armour and are 9th level casters, so must be fine for wizards too...
The traditional reasoning is that Arcane Spells are more powerful and there are far more with more versatility than Divine Spells.
*shrug*
You can always Still Spell everything to avoid Somatics anyway.
OOO Bloodrager.
I stand corrected!
I keep forgetting about that class.
What you also have to keep in mind is that you need a Spell List that really works with the Arrow Features it has. System Mastery is required for most Prestige Classes to make them shine (if at all).
Nope.Shamans get to choose a lot of goodies from a long list....but most of their choices are absolute s%&~.
Ermmm.... please tell me you're joking right?
Shaman is one of the worst designed, OP train wrecks I've ever come across!
Nope.Shamans get to choose a lot of goodies from a long list....but most of their choices are absolute s%&~.
Ermmm.... please tell me you're joking right?
Shaman is one of the worst designed, OP train wrecks I've ever come across!
I like the Shaman quite a bit for the flavor, but I think it is one of the weaker 9th level caster classes out there.
Now, it is still 9th level casting, so yes quite powerful, but while on the varsity team, I wouldn't say it was one of the star players.
Nope.Shamans get to choose a lot of goodies from a long list....but most of their choices are absolute s%&~.
Ermmm.... please tell me you're joking right?
Shaman is one of the worst designed, OP train wrecks I've ever come across!
You basically just said "nope you're wrong", but you provided no countering evidence.
Also a class can have very powerful features and still have a lot of terrible ones.
I apologize for the "baitie" title, My forum etiquette may need some work. I am in my first campaign and i'm running a SF Warpriest. I see inconsistencies like this and it just makes me shake my head as my class has received nerf after nerf. some make sense early game but we are now lvl 8 and going strong and i can feel the lag as most changes seem to target early game play and hurt the late game.
Enh, its ok, really. I should apologize too. Even if I feel I'm right to point it out I shouldn't have done it this way. I also think my general mood is seeping through into my posts. I'm sorry.
I appreciate the title change. Thank you.Regarding your specific situation you should be fine. The Warpriest is a good class and, from what I hear, the Sacred Fist Archetype even more so. I wouldn't worry too much. That said, 3/4th BAB classes do require a lot of stuff (feats, items and what have you) to keep up in combat. What you're noticing is more or less intentional.
Your notion that these changes 'target early game play and hurt the late game' is false. I mean, obviously 3/4th BAB is worse than Full but the difference is hardly noticeable in the early game. Its only 1 or 2 points on the same number of attacks as a Full BAB class. So those changes probably have little to nothing to do with the early game.
Regardless, what exactly is it you want to achieve here? We can help you understand why things are as they are but that won't help you at all if you're not willing to accept that the system's sense of balance is flawed. If you want to adjust the Warpriest (or the Arcane Archer) to fit into a higher tier we can help with that too, but then you still need to convince your DM to allow the homebrewed version. Finally, you could just want to vent your pointless frustration. If so, congratulations, you're in the right place! Its many posters' favorite passtime, whether they realize it or not.
If you're going for option number two, I wish you luck! We don't really have a baseline for a full-bab 6th-level (divine) caster yet so its bound to be more difficult than your average tinkerjob. I expect sacrifices in other fields...
Total aside, I'm curious, why compare with the Arcane Archer? It isn't very good. The Eldritch Knight is mostly superior and its still not very good. What made you feel the way you do?
@Wraithstrike, to be fair, the 'Shamans aren't op folk' haven't given any evidence to the contrary either beyond stating 'most of their features suck' :p I really don't think it matters much though. PF isn't actually all that good at handling high level casters as it is anyway. As soon as OP is reached the rest is just overkill...
Sacred Fist has been severely nerfed. It "used" to have Full bab 2wf with it's flurry of blows and could do so in armor. But now that the boards were like, "it's the only decent WP since it has pseudo full bab" the designers said that it doesn't get the bab = level clause of the monk(see rant). So now it's just free 2wf feats slower than the base WP could get them and you can't wear armor.
I've seen shamans played at all levels of the game and played one myself for a short time at early levels, and while the class is strong the spell list leaves a lot to be desired. They don't have many of the staple spells from the Cleric, Druid, or Witch lists which make it harder to specialize. This is lessened somewhat by the human, half-orc, and half-orc FCBs, but you can only pick cleric spells of a lower level than your highest so you are delayed by 2 levels if you wish to access a spell on their list. The Lore hex Arcane Enlightenment can get you some Arcane staples but requires horrendous stat arrays to make use of it. They lack the casting power of other 9th-level casters and their class features lack direction. Specializing as a Shaman is tough and often a bad idea anyway thanks to the versatility of their wandering spirits and hexes.
That said, Shaman makes a great baseline for some builds. Flames gives some good blasts, Water has one of the best hexes with Fluid Magic allowing you to prepare spirit spells in any slot (Fire+Water and Life+Water are great blasters and healers respectively). Heavens has a good mix of damage, control, and utility. Slums has a lot of strong CC on its spell list. Nature practically makes you a Druid and eventually gives you an animal companion. The issue is that, for a 9-level caster, their basic chassis for casting isn't that strong. It isn't weak by any means but it lacks a strong identity. Hopefully they'll get more spells in upcoming books to help define the class.
I've seen shamans played at all levels of the game and played one myself for a short time at early levels, and while the class is strong the spell list leaves a lot to be desired. They don't have many of the staple spells from the Cleric, Druid, or Witch lists which make it harder to specialize. This is lessened somewhat by the human, half-orc, and half-orc FCBs, but you can only pick cleric spells of a lower level than your highest so you are delayed by 2 levels if you wish to access a spell on their list. The Lore hex Arcane Enlightenment can get you some Arcane staples but requires horrendous stat arrays to make use of it. They lack the casting power of other 9th-level casters and their class features lack direction. Specializing as a Shaman is tough and often a bad idea anyway thanks to the versatility of their wandering spirits and hexes.
That said, Shaman makes a great baseline for some builds. Flames gives some good blasts, Water has one of the best hexes with Fluid Magic allowing you to prepare spirit spells in any slot (Fire+Water and Life+Water are great blasters and healers respectively). Heavens has a good mix of damage, control, and utility. Slums has a lot of strong CC on its spell list. Nature practically makes you a Druid and eventually gives you an animal companion. The issue is that, for a 9-level caster, their basic chassis for casting isn't that strong. It isn't weak by any means but it lacks a strong identity.
I strongly disagree.... the fact that it gets so many options is what makes it really OP... "The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts."
Hopefully they'll get more spells in upcoming books to help define the class.
And also there is another problem with what you said - the reason why their spell list is relatively poor in terms of quantity/quality (bear in mind its still 9th level), is because they have buckets of special abilities and options. If all of a sudden you start disproportionately expanding their spell list, then balance goes even further out of the window than it is already!!
Dangerous ground.....
yeah, the SF archetype is now worse than the original since you can take the G2WF feat at lv6 with your bonus feat, thus putting you "on track" for flurry. The only advantage that SF has is that it can use one weapon instead of 2. But with the feat that lets you apply your weapon enhancement bonuses to both at once you're not as penalized for using 2 weapons.
Base sacred fist might be better with it since it gets weapon focus for free so you can get it faster. And it still gets scaling damage, but if you're using a 2hw you're probably at better dice anyways.
Nope.Shamans get to choose a lot of goodies from a long list....but most of their choices are absolute s%&~.
Ermmm.... please tell me you're joking right?
Shaman is one of the worst designed, OP train wrecks I've ever come across!
I honestly forget Shaman is a class at times.
I've seen shamans played at all levels of the game and played one myself for a short time at early levels, and while the class is strong the spell list leaves a lot to be desired. They don't have many of the staple spells from the Cleric, Druid, or Witch lists which make it harder to specialize. This is lessened somewhat by the human, half-orc, and half-orc FCBs, but you can only pick cleric spells of a lower level than your highest so you are delayed by 2 levels if you wish to access a spell on their list. The Lore hex Arcane Enlightenment can get you some Arcane staples but requires horrendous stat arrays to make use of it. They lack the casting power of other 9th-level casters and their class features lack direction. Specializing as a Shaman is tough and often a bad idea anyway thanks to the versatility of their wandering spirits and hexes.
That said, Shaman makes a great baseline for some builds. Flames gives some good blasts, Water has one of the best hexes with Fluid Magic allowing you to prepare spirit spells in any slot (Fire+Water and Life+Water are great blasters and healers respectively). Heavens has a good mix of damage, control, and utility. Slums has a lot of strong CC on its spell list. Nature practically makes you a Druid and eventually gives you an animal companion. The issue is that, for a 9-level caster, their basic chassis for casting isn't that strong. It isn't weak by any means but it lacks a strong identity.
I strongly disagree.... the fact that it gets so many options is what makes it really OP... "The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts."
Hopefully they'll get more spells in upcoming books to help define the class.And also there is another problem with what you said - the reason why their spell list is relatively poor in terms of quantity/quality (bear in mind its still 9th level), is because they have buckets of special abilities and options. If all of a sudden you start disproportionately...
Options do not make the class good - Fighters and Rogues both have lots of options between feats and talents, but despite that versatility they're still underpowered because their options aren't strong. The Shaman is the same way in many respects. Their spell list lacks power and has less useful utility spells than any other 9th-level caster in the game. This isn't fixed by Spirit Magic either since they can only cast one spell of the two they can choose from per day at each spell level (unless they did the smart thing and took Water for Fluid Magic). Most spirits have just one or two hexes worth taking and while many of the generic ones are strong they aren't exactly on par with revelations. The Spirit abilities are largely underwhelming and come into play too late to have a meaningful impact. Overall the class has a lot of versatility on paper but not nearly as much in practice.
The fact that the Sacred Fist can cross full Flurry of Blows with full-CL buffing makes it very potent even without the pseudo-full-BAB, though it may only really reach it's full potential if you go Crusader's Flurry. I ran some numbers a while ago out of curiosity, and before the BAB nerf it was pretty monstrous with a weapon in two hands; as it is now, it holds up just fine. Warpriest is the poster-child for a class that's casually dismissed with generalities; it's like someone saying the Inquisitor is crap because it's 3/4BAB and 6-level casting.
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I strongly disagree.... the fact that it gets so many options is what makes it really OP... "The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts."
That's basically not an argument. I can do that too. "The tide is strong when the moon is fat."
Anyway, options only translate to power if they're powerful options.
Some of them are indeed powerful options, though. And the spell list issue can be fixed. An MPL Samsaran Unbound Shaman who takes the Arcane Enlightenment hex every day on the regular is probably my favorite power-gamey full caster, when I've rolled good stats (the build is mad as hell, which is admittedly strange for a full caster) and I don't feel like doing the wizard thing all the way.
Standard shaman spells are quite good though. There's sleep, entangle, levitate, blindness, deep slumber, sleet storm, stinking cloud & fly, just to name a few low-level stables. Admittedly, the 2nd level spells aren't very good, but that's just how it goes. There's always Summon Swarm, and the whole SNA line.
I strongly disagree.... the fact that it gets so many options is what makes it really OP... "The whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts."
Which would be cool in a game where specialization was less rewarded than it is in party adventure style games but in Pathfinder generally being able to be almost as good as the wizard and almost as good as the cleric and almost as good as the fighter and almost as good as the which mostly just means what role to I pick to be sub-par in today.
No if your missing a person or have an extra person in the party the flexibility can break even or maybe be a small benefit but as they usually stand it's just not good to be second best in your niche.
That's basically not an argument. I can do that too. "The tide is strong when the moon is fat."
Except for the small point that yours is completely irrelevant to the discussion :)
Having options to be good at several things at the same time does indeed make the whole character more effective.
Which would be cool in a game where specialization was less rewarded than it is in party adventure style games but in Pathfinder generally being able to be almost as good as the wizard and almost as good as the cleric and almost as good as the fighter and almost as good as the which mostly just means what role to I pick to be sub-par in today.
The point is that the Shaman can be almost as good simultaneously in several classes
I'm not sure what makes a Shaman 'not as good' at functions like spellcasting or hexing if that's what it focuses on. The class has a chaotic mash-up of possible features, but that doesn't mean you can't go in and cherry-pick the best of those features for a specific purpose. It's like ignoring charisma and channeling on a Cleric to focus on casting or fighting while choosing domains that compliment your purpose.
I know we're way off topic, but I finally sat down and read the Shaman. That is an insanely modular class in an insanely modular game (which, is a good thing!).
What's really got me wanting to try one now is its spell list. I know Magic is divided between Arcane/Divine, but I like to toss in Nature as a category in there too since Ranger/Druid/Hunter spell lists are drastically different from Cleric/Oracle/Paladin.
That being said, it's got spell selection choices that are inherent among all 3 of these categories (Namely, spells that are Sor/Wiz only, Cleric/Oracle only, and Druid only.) The big 3 that stand out to me being Elemental Swarm, Wail of the Banshee, and Mass Heal. As I go down the list, I can almost come up with three distinct spells like this for nearly every level of spells. These can be further customized with Spirit selection, and even some favored class bonuses.
I'm not sure why, but this speaks to me.
How come the WarPriest is 3/4 BAB Cleric/Fighter but the Arcane archer maintains Full BAB as a Ranger/Wizard. "Martial training is forgone to train as a caster" kinda goes out the window with Arcane Archer being full. It is inconsistent.
back on topic, The Warpriest has some built-in buffs that can let it behave as a class with Full Base Attack. Since the Warpriest is a base class as well, you are more welcomed to customize more of your character choices as you see fit. The Arcane Archer has some prerequisites to meet before just anyone can become one, and the Full Base Attack may be there to compensate for it.
Really, when you consider traditional paths to enter Arcane Archer, the AA is really a 3/4 BAB class, because you would have spent most of your time prior to entering it as a 1/2 BAB class.
Mostly true. If your game goes all the way to 20th level, then arcane archer can be a beast. My favorite progression is [fighter or ranger*] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 (possibly wizard 3/[fighter or ranger] 1/wizard +3/..., depending on exactly when I want certain abilities), ending up with +17 BAB and spell progression as a 17th level wizard (for 9th-level spells) at 20th level.
The drawbacks are that the character's BAB is basically the same as a straight wizard for the first 7-8 levels, the spell progression is delayed (which slows access to higher level spells), and you have to use about half your feats from 1st-9th level to qualify for arcane archer (granted, two of them are pretty useful: Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are worthwhile choices for a wizard with some ranged touch spells, anyway). Also, you should probably take Arcane Armor Training, then retrain it for Quicken Spell once the character hits about 12th-13th level (when they can cast 5th-level spells). Basically, you have less leeway as to how the character develops, since you have to focus on the qualification requirements.
*- Fighter for the extra feat or ranger for the ability to activate wands of cure light wounds, etc. without Use Magic Device checks (and Favored Enemy for campaigns with a strong focus on a specific type of opponent).
A warpriest can be a good archer, as well. The Sacred Weapon feature, although not immediately useful for a bow, is good on reaching 4th level for the swift action enhancement bonus/weapon abilities and becomes very nice on reaching 10th+ level (especially if the warpriest can gain gravity bow somehow).
Note that the archer warpriest doesn't have to worship Erastil or another deity with a bow as their favored weapon. The bonus Weapon Focus feat from the Focus Weapon feature can be used for longbow to gain the Sacred Weapon benefits. Selecting a deity with a favored melee weapon like heavy pick, kukri, light pick, rapier, or scimitar can help make your "backup" weapon a high-DPR option.
The point is that the Shaman can be almost as good simultaneously in several classes
Which would be cool in a game where specialization was less rewarded than it is in party adventure style games but in Pathfinder generally being able to be almost as good as the wizard and almost as good as the cleric and almost as good as the fighter and almost as good as the which mostly just means what role to I pick to be sub-par in today.
"Good" is subjective. Do you have any examples of how this could be "too much/OP" in a game?
The point is that the Shaman can be almost as good simultaneously in several classes
Which would be cool in a game where specialization was less rewarded than it is in party adventure style games but in Pathfinder generally being able to be almost as good as the wizard and almost as good as the cleric and almost as good as the fighter and almost as good as the which mostly just means what role to I pick to be sub-par in today.
On paper *maybe*. But even if that is true so what ? You don't really do all those things simultaneously in the game so its sort of a moot point..
It can blast or battlefirld control okay... But you can and probably should have someone doing better damage or lockdowns
It can heal okay <Though with some impressive optigymnastics I think it can out heal in raw damage almost anything else> but it's ability to mitigate negative status falls flat. So if you don't have something to deal with that like a paladin in the party or a cleric
It doesn't skill monkey super great.. It beats the fighter and is probably better than the rogue but at this point that's almost a given.
It buffs good I'll definitely give the class that but not super better than anyone else. It also debuffs okay but buffing is usually just better if only because buffing doesn't worry about saves.
Either wy when the shaman is doing one of those things is isn't doing any of the others. It could but its finite selection of resources, in this case class features, feats, and spells aren't numerous enough to fully take on two roles.. Sure it can pull off like to 75 to 80% one class and 40ish of another... But your average good build is hovering at more like 130 to 150% of what it's supposed to do.
Shaman is by no means a bad class and it's great for picking up slack especially in a oddly lopsided party where it has to pull extra duty or can go above and beyond but it's hardly OP or broken