I am leaning towards eldritch Poisoner only cause I think the actual meat of the archetype is better.
Toxicant would be nice with Vivisectionist (I havent checked to see if it comboes, I just notice it keeps bombs).
A lot of good poison based discoveries are there to buff up the regular stuff. Maybe combo that with the toxicant stuff to have 2 poisons on your blade as well?
Guild Poisoner has some good stuff for a dip or so.
Eldritch Poisoner can't use alchemist discoveries modifying poison on their Arcanotoxin. They can, however, use feats to modify it. It is definitely the more offensive of the two, dealing ability damage and applying conditions easily. Of the two they are almost evenly matched - the toxicant has better condition choice and can use more than one at a time while the EP's poison can get a higher DC thanks to Tailored Toxin and Careful Injection and has a much easier time getting the poisons to stay active with the ability to increase the number of successful saves to recover (note that with the Occult Origins feat Daggermark Lore you can potentially force the enemy to make 4 consecutive saves before getting cured and it also makes it harder to neutralize). Arcanotoxin also takes a Move action to apply while the Toxic Secretion can be added to a weapon as a Swift action. On the other hand, the Toxicant has no poison options outside their class feature and the basic alchemist stuff while the Eldritch Poisoner cuts poison crafting time in half, grants another bonus to craft (alchemy) checks for poison, and has enough Sneak Attack dice to make use of Treacherous Toxin. It's a pretty good backup plan.
So, to recap - Eldritch Poisoner wins on offense and general poison use, while the Toxicant wins on conditions, defense, and action economy. Which one you take should depend on the build you're planning on making. I personally prefer the Eldritch Poisoner for the reliability of their poisons - they have higher DCs and are harder to cure with the right class choices.
I would say that toxicant also wins in the fact that it keeps bombs.
Just saying- you can find various poison based AoE bombs. Having options is not bad. You can make a fairly good switch hitter as an alchemist going in between melee and bombs, and using bombs with all sorts of fun debuffs and battlefield control is nice too. I means that half of your class features aren't ripped out the second something is poison immune.
It might need you to take the mutagen discovery and then feral mutagen discovery to take full advantage of it though, since it seems natural attack focused.
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Toxicant, hands down. Both have been added to my guide, and Toxicant is blue while Eldritch Poisoner is orange.
The reason is that the Arcanotoxin just isn't that great. A standard action to produce and a move to apply to a weapon mean that you're a full round into any combat where you don't have a round to prepare (not uncommon) for a 1 hit poison (since they can't use any of the good poison discoveries) that starts very weak with a terrible duration. That doesn't sound impressive to me, and while I like being able to tailor the poison, most of the adjustments for it don't really excite me or feel viable compared to the Toxicant who just gives up Mutagen (so 1 discovery) for all of this.
Sure the sneak attack's nice, but a vivisectionist Toxicant blows an Eldritch Poisoner out of the water.
The Toxicant ability Toxic Digestion pairs well with the infused poisons from Black Markets. I was disappointed that they were all ingestion poisons, but this ability gets around that. Now you can brew up an offensive 3rd level spell effect into your poison and touch or weapon deliver it. Expensive, but powerful.
Toxicant, hands down. Both have been added to my guide, and Toxicant is blue while Eldritch Poisoner is orange.
The reason is that the Arcanotoxin just isn't that great. A standard action to produce and a move to apply to a weapon mean that you're a full round into any combat where you don't have a round to prepare (not uncommon) for a 1 hit poison (since they can't use any of the good poison discoveries) that starts very weak with a terrible duration. That doesn't sound impressive to me, and while I like being able to tailor the poison, most of the adjustments for it don't really excite me or feel viable compared to the Toxicant who just gives up Mutagen (so 1 discovery) for all of this.
Sure the sneak attack's nice, but a vivisectionist Toxicant blows an Eldritch Poisoner out of the water.
I don't have my book on me (and perhaps I should put this in your guide thread) but I believe the Envenom discovery allows you to poison your own weapon as a move action as opposed to a standard + move.
Still, not nearly as good as a swift action... The actual ability damage makes you feel a bit more poison-esque.
Whoops- only just realized that the mention of natural attacks was about things attacking you. I thought this was something cooler, where you had constantly poisoned claws.
Still, swift action to set up poison with various effects. We generally seem to agree this is good. And it isn't like the save DC is bad (it is the same as the bomb DC). So you can get in blinded or dazed without too much trouble, it would seem.
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Infused Potions are in Black Markets.I can't say I've heard of Infused Potions.. but I may have to look for that sometime. Sounds pretty amusing..
Also sounds like it would be amusing with that injection spear build.
Which.. I realized I could've done with vivi. haha. Went with split hitter with a different weapon.
Infuse Poison (Item Creation)
You can infuse a poison with a magical effect.
Prerequisites: Brew Potion, Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks, caster
level 3rd.
Benefit: You can infuse an ingested poison with any spell
of 3rd level or lower that you know and that targets one or more creatures and has a casting time of less than 1 minute. Infusing a poison takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less; otherwise, infusing a poison takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you infuse a poison, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own caster level. To infuse a poison, you must use up raw materials costing half of its base price.
When you create an infused poison, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever ingests the infused poison is the target of the spell.Infused Poisons
By combining the skill of potioncraft with a poisoner’s art, cunning assassins and herbalists can craft vile supernatural threats. An infused poison combines the effects of an ingested poison and a potion. A creature drinking an infused poison is affected by the poison (and its initial effects or damage) first, after which the infused spell effect triggers and the imbiber must attempt a second saving throw (often of a different type or DC) against its magical effects. Spell resistance applies normally to an infused poison’s magical effects, but offers no protection against the poison, and poison resistance offers no protection against the magical effects of an infused poison. Poison immunity renders a creature immune to an infused poison’s magical effects.
A poison can be infused with a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures. As with a potion, you cannot create an infused poison without meeting its spell prerequisite. The base price of the infusion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator’s caster level × 25 gp. The cost of the poison to be infused is paid separately. If the spell has a material component cost, it is added to the poison’s base price and cost of creation.
Infused poisons function like spells cast on the imbiber. A poison’s creator makes all decisions regarding the spell’s effects when it is created—the creature consuming the infused poison has no control over its effects. Unlike with a potion, the imbiber is not considered the caster of the effect. If the spell has an effect related to the caster (as does charm person), the subject treats the first sentient creature it encounters after consuming the poison as the poison’s creator.
A character who attempts to identify an infused poison with a Perception check (as if it were a potion) has a 5% chance of poisoning herself, unless she has the poison use ability. This process doesn’t consume the infused poison.
Ingestion potions only, which is why this combos well with a high level Toxicant.
Toxicant is significantly better than the Eldritch Poisoner in my opinion. This is because it gives up only mutagen while EP gives up mutagen, throw anything, bombs, and a 4th level discovery. This means toxicant stacks with vivisectionist, which allows the toxicant to regain basically all of the extra abilities that the EP has over it in the first place. It then comes down to the actual poison.
EP poison takes a move action to use once you get envenom. Toxicant is a swift. This is a huge advantage that I cannot overstate. The EP poison is not worth giving up a full attack for and will rarely see use past level 5 once haste is online (or 8 once the alch has BAB 6). Before envenom, EP poison is worthless, meaning you have a discovery tax. In worst case scenario your EP poison is useful for a grand total of 3 levels (2,3,4) before it becomes obsolete.
EP poison does ability damage, which outside of some corner cases is lacklustre. It starts low and has a low cap. Toxicant poison can daze. Let that sink in for a moment. Toxicant poison can potentially deny an opponent the chance to act in a combat at all.
To add insult (poison?) to injury, by level 3, toxicant poison is better at ability damage than the EP poison: fatigued and sickened both impose the equivalent of 4 ability points worth of damage to the target as well as having additional effects. Yes, this doesn't continue to stack (actually, there's no wording to prevent fatigued from stacking to exhausted, so it probably does?), but that's the big conceit of poison that people forget, and why it's so bad: combat very rarely lasts enough rounds for ability damage to add up. A larger turn one hit via a status effect is better even if it doesn't have the 'potential' to get worse over 10 turns.
Toxicant is just the superior choice in almost every way. It gives up a single discovery to have an actually combat-effective poison. It is a poisoner that actually works. EP doesn't quite make it to that level.
...but that's the big conceit of poison that people forget, and why it's so bad: combat very rarely lasts enough rounds for ability damage to add up. A larger turn one hit via a status effect is better even if it doesn't have the 'potential' to get worse over 10 turns.
Not that I don't generally agree that the conditions are better options overall, but I will play devil's advocate- EP poison can attack wisdom scores (and dex and eventually con scores too, but those are lesser concerns for this)
So it could be seen as a way of forcing an enemy's will save down. So as a concept that is nice at least (even if it isn't as nice in practice with the whole 'terrible action economy' thing).
...but that's the big conceit of poison that people forget, and why it's so bad: combat very rarely lasts enough rounds for ability damage to add up. A larger turn one hit via a status effect is better even if it doesn't have the 'potential' to get worse over 10 turns.Not that I don't generally agree that the conditions are better options overall, but I will play devil's advocate- EP poison can attack wisdom scores (and dex and eventually con scores too, but those are lesser concerns for this)
So it could be seen as a way of forcing an enemy's will save down. So as a concept that is nice at least (even if it isn't as nice in practice with the whole 'terrible action economy' thing).
Sickened also forces will saves down so this is much of a muchness really - and has the advantage of dropping fort saves at the same time to allow for a greater chance at failing the poison save next turn too (and reflex, skills, attack and damage for good measure).
Also, by the time you would realistically have wisdom damage online you're contending with daze. Nothing the EP gets can contend with daze.
Attribute damage is really only good when you have a monster with a very low ability score you can target -- and even then it is usually too slow to be useful.
Toxicant is Waaay better. You can easly force 3+ saves per round, and with the stacking DC rules plus the shaken/sickened combo, it's going to be brutal. Also dazed every turn at 6 is bloody disgusting.
Toxic Secretion also seems to have no duration at all.
It has rules for how often someone has to make the save, and it has rules for suppressing the effect, but beyond that it has no mention of how long it lasts on the Toxicant. So I guess by RAW its indefinite, right?
I mean, it should probably be 24 hours since the ability does have a "once per day" effect, but that's merely making the secretion and does not affect its duration at all.
Are you able to combine Malignant poison with your toxicant poison that you secrete? Doing it at the start of combat, making all of the poison you place on your weapons as a swift action malignant?
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Oh right, the daze thing. Is it just me, or are dazed and staggered mistakenly swapped on the Toxicant? If I recall, daze comes online before staggered and is even replaced by staggered if you choose that later. Seems backwards.
Oh right, the daze thing. Is it just me, or are dazed and staggered mistakenly swapped on the Toxicant? If I recall, daze comes online before staggered and is even replaced by staggered if you choose that later. Seems backwards.
15 years of 3.x and not even the devs have realized Dazed it's actually the most powerfull action-hampering condition. It's the only one no creature is immune to (not even contructs or undeads)
Oh right, the daze thing. Is it just me, or are dazed and staggered mistakenly swapped on the Toxicant? If I recall, daze comes online before staggered and is even replaced by staggered if you choose that later. Seems backwards.15 years of 3.x and not even the devs have realized Dazed it's actually the most powerfull action-hampering condition. It's the only one no creature is immune to (not even contructs or undeads)
Well sure, that too, but I think Staggered is meant to evolve into Daze and not Daze into Stagger.
I think in the case of poisons, daze isn't as versatile as it may originally seem because there are plenty of monsters (more than anything else perhaps?) immune to poisons.
Toxicant is just the superior choice in almost every way.While this may be true, the Toxicant isn't a legal choice for a lot of players due it being banned in PFS.
On that note, anyone have any suggestions for making the most of the Eldritch Poisoner? I like the idea of it and am willing to deal with some less than optimal combinations.
Things of note with the Eldritch Poisoner:
You can still use Swift Poison from Alchemist 6. You can brew a poison or two before combat, apply them to your weapon, and brew a couple more to have on hand. Then, in combat, you can apply it to your weapon as a swift action. They only last 1 minute, so you'll need to be quick to act and it works best when you already have "buff rounds".
Picking up Sickening Toxin for a nauseate effect is actually not too bad for a PFS capstone.
As for what to increase on the Arcanatoxin, I'm not sure. I'm not a PFS player so I don't know if increasing the saves required or the frequency is worthwhile (or does everything die in one full round?) What stat is usually the lowest? Is it worth targeting mental because monsters will usually have extremely low scores and pass out quick? Or is targeting Strength the best (lower incoming damage)? Maybe Dex to make landing subsequent hits easiest? Once you hit 10, I would think Constitution is the best target.
Well sure, that too, but I think Staggered is meant to evolve into Daze and not Daze into Stagger.
Stagger evolves into stunned, not dazed. Dazed is in this weird boat where it is supposed to be a weaker equivalent to stunned, but ends up being a better version of stunned because so few things resist it. It doesn't really fit into the staggered->stunned evolution tree, but it got shoehorned into it in this archetype because the dev didn't realise it wasn't the same as it was in 3.5.
I think in the case of poisons, daze isn't as versatile as it may originally seem because there are plenty of monsters (more than anything else perhaps?) immune to poisons.
That's an issue with poisons, not with daze. Daze is still the better and more versatile choice than any other poison option, generally speaking.
Well sure, that too, but I think Staggered is meant to evolve into Daze and not Daze into Stagger.
Stagger evolves into stunned, not dazed. Dazed is in this weird boat where it is supposed to be a weaker equivalent to stunned, but ends up being a better version of stunned because so few things resist it. It doesn't really fit into the staggered->stunned evolution tree, but it got shoehorned into it in this archetype because the dev didn't realise it wasn't the same as it was in 3.5.
That's an issue with poisons, not with daze. Daze is still the better and more versatile choice than any other poison option, generally speaking.
I think in the case of poisons, daze isn't as versatile as it may originally seem because there are plenty of monsters (more than anything else perhaps?) immune to poisons.
Agreed and agreed. Dazed is fantastic (by far the best option available for the Toxicant rebuff). Just not Dazing Spell tier.
And stunned is the logical progression after stagger, but I was more pointing out that going daze to stagger makes 0 sense.