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Natural abilities are defined in Pathfinder ruleset.
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
I know removing the word 'natural' from the Fly skill would work but so could removing the phrase "and its maneuverability is good" from the fly spell.
I can see that a creature that has wings with a fly spell cast on it will be more maneuverable and able to control its flight better than a normally flightless creature using a fly spell. If a druid wildshapes into a bat, she should get the maneuverability bonus because bats are aerodynamically designed to fly well.
I don't mind which way it is ruled, but I would like a ruling so please: Click on the FAQ button
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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That's a good spot, Matt, but flight is either Ex or Su per UMR. Or maybe fly is Sp since it's a spell. Either way, if we are using the quoted UMR definition of "natural," nothing has a natural fly speed.
Flight (Ex or Su) A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.
Related question: if casting fly on a creature that has a "natural" (whatever that means) fly speed overrides its innate maneuverability, could you cast fly on a creature with perfect maneuverability as a debuff? That doesn't seem right.
Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus. Monster stat blocks with natural flight do.
Question answered. Time to go home everyone.
Related question: if casting fly on a creature that has a "natural" (whatever that means) fly speed overrides its innate maneuverability, could you cast fly on a creature with perfect maneuverability as a debuff? That doesn't seem right.
True, it probably shouldn't be a debuff, perhaps the wording of "and its maneuverability is good" needs to be changed to indicate it is an only improvement, not a fixed change.
All the more reason to have it looked at.
What happens if you cast fly on a creature with a fast fly speed (greater than 60 ft.) but low maneuverability (like a dragon), does the creature get the better maneuverability and also get to fly at the faster speed as well?
More questions to clarify.
Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus.
Where do you find these? Do they include the +1/2 caster level?
The only example I could find with Fly pre-cast was Azure Bolt Sorcerer (Level 13 Sorcerer from NPC Codex).It lists her maneuverability as Good.
By my count she has 5 ranks of Fly skill and neither the +1/2 caster level not any maneuverability bonus are included.
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 18, lnt 10, Wis 8, Cha 21
Bluff +12, Fly +10, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (arcana) +7,
Linguistics +1, Perception +11, Spellcraft +7
Skill ranks taken:
Arcana: 4
Bluff: 4
Fly: 5
Intimidate: 12
Linguistics: 1
Perception: 9
Spellcraft: 4
Total: 39 (3 per level, 2 for sorcerer, 1 for human)
Conclusion: the +1/2 caster level in the Fly spell is a typo, or NPC stat blocks are misleading.
Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus.Where do you find these? Do they include the +1/2 caster level?
The only example I could find with Fly pre-cast was Azure Bolt Sorcerer (Level 13 Sorcerer from NPC Codex).
There's also a few monsters, like the Ogre Mage. Granted, these have it as a constant spell-like which might be considered different in terms of "natural". But here's the breakdown for the ogre mage:
It has 64 skill points, and 8 skill points each in 8 different int/wis/cha based skills, leaving nothing for Fly.Fly should be +3 Dex + (9/2) CL, -2 ACP, -2 Size = +3 before maneuverability. Final listing is +5, which is weird since it's too high but still too low to take good maneuverability into account.
EDIT: As for the sorceress, there seems to be quite a bit of weirdness going on with her stats in several places; looking at the hit points, they seem weird too. Her Con is listed at 18 post-buff, which should yield 6+12d6(HD) + 65(Con+Toughness) + 15.5 (False Life) = 128, not 141. Now, if we add in the human favored bonus it adds up to 141, but then there's some severe issues with the skill points. Now, you accidentally forgot the class bonus to perception, but even removing those, we end up at 31 skill points before fly, which is very strange as she should only have 24 if her FCB went to hp. But, even if she had absolutely 0 ranks the numbers don't add up as she should have 6 (CL) + 2 (Dex) = +8, not +10. If she had at least one rank, it should be at at least +12.
Personally, I think the sorceress stat block is just a bit screwed up.
EDIT2: Looking at the Lamia-Kin from RotRL, here's the breakdown
5*21 = 105 skill points
Skills
Intimidate 21 + 3 + 4 = 28
Perception 21 + 3 + 4 = 28
Sense Motive 21 + 4 = 25
Stealth 21 +3 +1 -8 = 25
Fly: 21
+7 cl
+4 maneuver
+3 class
+1 dex
-4 size
=32 (CORRECT FOR ONCE! DINGDINGDING!)
Here including maneuverability makes it fit perfectly.
Now, you accidentally forgot the class bonus to perception, but even removing those, we end up at 31 skill points before fly, which is very strange as she should only have 24 if her FCB went to hp.
Wait... Level 13 Human Sorcerer with FCB hit-points and 10 Int should have 39 skill points, right?
And I didn't forget the class skill bonus on Perception - maybe you forgot the Wisdom penalty?
Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus. Monster stat blocks with natural flight do.
Question answered. Time to go home everyone.
That, plus my example of the Winged Boots.
Correct answer: Fly spell has legacy language regarding maneuverability.
Bonus to Fly skill when using Fly spell is only half caster level.
Both. They stack. It's a third level spell. Who cares? DC20 is all you need.
The fly skill was invented by Paizo so don't lean on legacy language.
But the spell does.
The 'error' is in the spell. The skill was written by Paizo, and does mention 'natural'.
I used Winged Boots as an example of how it works (+4 to check, NOT +8)-I believe the spell does not confer 'natural' flight, and thus the maneuverability bonus does not apply, merely the 1/2 level bonus.
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Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus. Monster stat blocks with natural flight do.
Question answered. Time to go home everyone.
That, plus my example of the Winged Boots.
Correct answer: Fly spell has legacy language regarding maneuverability.
Bonus to Fly skill when using Fly spell is only half caster level.
1) All the other spells in the CRB that grant fly speeds also list a maneuverability class. Or do you mean that some spells grant a natural fly speed (Monstrous Physique) and others grant an unnatural fly speed? What about monsters with Fly as a constant ability? Any line you're drawing here is arbitrary.
2) Referring to "statblocks" without naming whose statblocks they are, and the many many erroneous statblocks published by Paizo, make that this doesn't prove anything.
I believe that it's the Fly skill that has a legacy/nonsense word in it. "Natural" is not defined and might mean anything you like (or someone else likes) in PF.
"Natural" is not defined and might mean anything you like (or someone else likes) in PF.
Really?
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I mean really, really?
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fly spell natural?
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really?
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consider my gasted well and truly flabbered!
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For the record, *I* don't care which way this is ruled, but I'd like some clarification. For example, I understand that the lesser boots of flying are priced as if the lower maneuverability granted by them imposes the maneuverability penalty. That means even someone (or more than one) person at Paizo thought that the spell conveys that bonus/penalty as well.
I just want clarification one way or the other (neither of which I think is particularly game-breaking.)
Stat blocks of NPCs with flight spells don't apply the maneuverability bonus. Monster stat blocks with natural flight do.
Question answered. Time to go home everyone.
That, plus my example of the Winged Boots.
Correct answer: Fly spell has legacy language regarding maneuverability.
Bonus to Fly skill when using Fly spell is only half caster level.
1) All the other spells in the CRB that grant fly speeds also list a maneuverability class. Or do you mean that some spells grant a natural fly speed (Monstrous Physique) and others grant an unnatural fly speed? What about monsters with Fly as a constant ability? Any line you're drawing here is arbitrary.
2) Referring to "statblocks" without naming whose statblocks they are, and the many many erroneous statblocks published by Paizo, make that this doesn't prove anything.
I believe that it's the Fly skill that has a legacy/nonsense word in it. "Natural" is not defined and might mean anything you like (or someone else likes) in PF.
Concerning your first point: Spells that transform you into a form that normally have a flight speed (dragons etc) obviously HAVE a "natural" flight speed... you can ignore that if you like...
Fly (the spell) isn't the natural form of flight for ANY monster.
Uh. Yeah.
What if you are a monster born with a permanent fly spell. Is it a natural or unnatural speed?
Produce an example.
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Concerning your first point: Spells that transform you into a form that normally have a flight speed (dragons etc) obviously HAVE a "natural" flight speed... you can ignore that if you like...
I like how you put natural between quote marks there, because it's really not so obvious that it's any more "really natural" than fly speed from a Fly spell.
Fly (the spell) isn't the natural form of flight for ANY monster.Uh. Yeah.
Ogre Mage.
The problem with using 'natural' as the criterion is that its meaning is arbitrary. You claim that a fly speed gained from polymorphing into something that flies without wings (air elemental) is natural; I'm not convinced.
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Checking magic items, it seems the maneuverability bonus isn't referenced in any of the Fly skill bonus values provided - although several don't seem to use the Fly spell's 1/2 CL as the bonus.
IMHO natural fly speed is a fly speed based on body or nature (wings, ghost). Spell based fly speed gets a bonus based on CL. The maneuverability values seem to be a hold-over from the 3.5 fly system who's only current value is for (a) natural fly speed Fly skill bonuses or possibly also as an optional (b) use of the 3.5 fly system's more detailed grid of flying actions & maneuver ratings.
Magic Items granting a Fly speed:
Wings of Flying
CL10 average maneuverability & +5 Fly competence bonus
CL10 Fly spells grants +5 - check
Wings of Flying, Lesser
CL10 poor maneuverability, no mention of Fly competence bonus
CL10 Fly spell should grant +5 - but the 'Lesser' status, and/or the Poor maneuverability result in no mention
If you started with +5 (spell) then subtracted 4 (poor), you'd still have a +1, which you don't
Cloak of the Bat
CL7 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Fly spell; "including a +7 bonus on Fly skill checks"
CL7 Fly spell should grant +3 - matches if you're adding both the Fly spell's "Good" maneuverability plus 1/2 CL bonus. This doesn't align with other items - but this is one of three cloak items which actually gives you wings
Floating Feather Feather Token
No CL - average maneuverability
Carpet of Flying
CL10 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Overland Flight spell; "a carpet of flying can hover without making a Fly skill check and gives a +5 bonus to other Fly checks."
CL10 Fly spell should grant +5 - check
Broom of Flying
CL9 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Overland Flight spell; "+4 on Fly skill checks"
CL9 Fly spell should grant +4 - check
Cauldron of Flying
CL10 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Overland Flight spell
CL10 Fly spell should grant +5 - not provided
Broom of Flying, Racing
CL5 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Overland Flight spell
CL5 Fly spell should grant +2 - not provided, but CL looks wrong given the regular Broom of Flying
Chest, Flying Chest
CL10 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Overland Flight spell; "with a +5 bonus on Fly checks"
CL10 Fly spell should grant +5 - check
Celestial Armor
CL5 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Fly spell
CL5 Fly spell should grant +2 - not provided
Winged Shield
CL5 - no maneuverability listed - explicitly references the Fly spell
CL5 Fly spell should grant +2 - not provided
Artifact: Cloud Castle of the Storm King
CL20 - clumsy maneuverability - explicitly uses the Fly skill of the person controlling its motion; can hover without fly check & never risks falling
CL20 Fly spell should grant +10 - not provided
In that very specific corner case:
If your race has an innate ability to fly that works like the fly spell, it's natural.
If you have the fly spell as an at will SLA, it's not natural.
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In that very specific corner case:
If your race has an innate ability to fly that works like the fly spell, it's natural.
If you have the fly spell as an at will SLA, it's not natural.
Except the Universal Monster Rules don't describe flight that way, as mentioned upthread.
Flight is described as either an Ex or Su ability.
The rules describe natural abilities as:
"Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."
Since flight is specifically " otherwise designated" as extraordinary or supernatural, then it's not a natural ability. Now, I would certainly concede that specific monsters might have some other description of flight, and that would certainly take precedence of this general statement, sure.
Yes, it would seem that if a creature has wings "...because of its physical nature" then it would be natural, yes? Except for creatures it is defined, generally, as an extraordinary or supernatural ability, and thus not natural.
There are just a lot of inherent conflicts in the flight rules.
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Answered in FAQ:
Flight and Magical Flight: Can a paralyzed or stunned creature keep flying with magical flight? Does a creature with magical flight not apply bonuses or penalties to Fly checks because it doesn’t have a “natural” fly speed? Does flying make a creature immune to being flat-footed?
No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect. Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.