If you use a Crusader Cleric you gain Weapon Focus for free in exchange for losing a domain. Not a painless trade-off, but brings things together a lot faster.
BadBird wrote: If you use a Crusader Cleric you gain Weapon Focus for free in exchange for losing a domain. Not a painless trade-off, but brings things together a lot faster. Nice catch, I didn't know about that one.
So crusader 1: weapon focus, power attack.
Unmonk 2: dodge
Unmonk 3: crusader's flurry, deflect arrows
Unmonk 4: -
Unmonk 5: ascetic style, ki power - feather balance
Unmonk 6: style strike- flying kick
Unmonk 7: domain strike, ki power - bark skin?, mobility
Unmonk 8: -
Unmonk 9:ascetic form, ki power - feather step
I like that the main elements are online by level 5. Got a nice pounce like ability building up too. Any thoughts for improvement?
Heh, technically you can't take the free Weapon Focus with 0 BAB.
BadBird wrote: Heh, technically you can't take the free Weapon Focus with 0 BAB. I just checked, that is weird that you ignore class and level requirements but not BAB. Sounds like an oversight.
Ascetic Style wrote: Benefit: Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks. Amulet of Mighty fists wrote: This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons. Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes wrote: Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round). If I wear a body wraps of mighty strikes with the speed property, an amulet of mighty fists with the holy and flaming properties and a +5 keen cestus, does my cestus strike become a +5 keen holy flaming speed strike (total +12 worth of bonuses)?
Edit: I started a rules question thread for this here.
GM Aram Zey wrote: Ascetic Style wrote: Benefit: Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks. Amulet of Mighty fists wrote: This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons. Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes wrote: Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round). If I wear a body wraps of mighty strikes with the speed property, an amulet of mighty fists with the holy and flaming properties and a +5 keen cestus, does my cestus strike become a +5 keen holy flaming speed strike (total +12 worth of bonuses)?
Edit: I started a rules question thread for this here. No. +10 is the limit.
PRD wrote: Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. Also...
FAQ wrote: Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.
Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.
Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
Ok then, but my player's character can still combine the effects of an impact amulet of mighty fists with a +5 cestus for a +5 impact cestus strike?
Torbyne wrote: There are a lot of pieces to the cleric monk build. It looks like dual talent human is still the best.
Str 16 (+2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14 (+2 racial)
CHA 8
Level 1 unmonk: power attack, dodge
Level 2 cleric of Shizuru
Level 3 unmonk: weapon focus - katana
Level 4: n.a.
Level 5:crusader's flurry
Level 6: n.a.
Level 7: domain strike
Level 8: n.a.
Level 9: ascetic form
That is the basics of it online already, thoughts?
Well, why Katana? Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Deadly weapon ability. It seems to me that the appeal of the Katana is that it has a Threat Range of 18-20, and I notice you aren't taking Improved Critical. If you aren't going to develop Crits, you might as well save the EWP slot and use a long sword.
If you want the Crits, and if you want to be part cleric, then maybe you should use 2 Kukris and be a Warpriest. Kukris are Martial Weapons, so you don't have to spend a feat to learn it. You can inflict Sacred Weapon Damage instead of Kukri Damage, so instead of 1d4/1d4, at level 1, you will do 1d6/1d6. At level 5 it will go up to 1d8, and it will keep going up. If you take the Destruction Blessing, all your weapon damage will go up +1 every 2 levels. Then you can build on Critting with stuff like Blinding Critical, Bleeding Critical, and Seize the Moment on top of a Threat Range of 15-20 and a +4 to confirmations on top of a platform that has a high base damage with 2 weapons.
You were talking about wanting an unarmored sword master. I would go (Well, I would wear armor!) with either Kensai Magus or just Monk. If I went Monk, I would just use a Sword with the Monk quality like the Temple Sword or 9 Ringed sword and Flurry with it. As a Monk, I might take like 1 level in Magus, Wizard, Alchemist, or something so I could gird myself with something like Mage Armor and Shield Spells, but, strange as it sounds coming from me, I'd mostly just single class, since the strength of the build depends on maxing out Flurry of Blows or acquiring high-level Magus Spells.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Torbyne wrote: There are a lot of pieces to the cleric monk build. It looks like dual talent human is still the best.
Str 16 (+2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14 (+2 racial)
CHA 8
Level 1 unmonk: power attack, dodge
Level 2 cleric of Shizuru
Level 3 unmonk: weapon focus - katana
Level 4: n.a.
Level 5:crusader's flurry
Level 6: n.a.
Level 7: domain strike
Level 8: n.a.
Level 9: ascetic form
That is the basics of it online already, thoughts?
Well, why Katana? Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Deadly weapon ability. It seems to me that the appeal of the Katana is that it has a Threat Range of 18-20, and I notice you aren't taking Improved Critical. If you aren't going to develop Crits, you might as well save the EWP slot and use a long sword.
If you want the Crits, and if you want to be part cleric, then maybe you should use 2 Kukris and be a Warpriest. Kukris are Martial Weapons, so you don't have to spend a feat to learn it. You can inflict Sacred Weapon Damage instead of Kukri Damage, so instead of 1d4/1d4, at level 1, you will do 1d6/1d6. At level 5 it will go up to 1d8, and it will keep going up. If you take the Destruction Blessing, all your weapon damage will go up +1 every 2 levels. Then you can build on Critting with stuff like Blinding Critical, Bleeding Critical, and Seize the Moment on top of a Threat Range of 15-20 and a +4 to confirmations on top of a platform that has a high base damage with 2 weapons.
You were talking about wanting an unarmored sword master. I would go (Well, I would wear armor!) with either Kensai Magus or just Monk. If I went Monk, I would just use a Sword with the Monk quality like the Temple Sword or 9 Ringed sword and Flurry with it. As a Monk, I might take like 1 level in Magus, Wizard, Alchemist, or something so I could gird myself with something like Mage Armor and Shield Spells, but, strange as it sounds coming from me, I'd mostly just single class, since the strength of the build depends on maxing out Flurry... Honestly i doubt that the deadly property will ever come in across a whole campaign.
The katana comes after considering the Ascetic Style that was suggested up thread. Normally Ascetic Style requires a monk weapon but there arent any monk weapons that i really care for.
A single level in Crusader Cleric grants proficiency with the diety's favored weapon and weapon focus which is a prereq for Ascetic anyways.
Since Ascetic Style lets you use the monk's unarmed damage die the only properties from the weapon i am looking for are the threat range and the ability to be two handed, Katana as favored weapon of Shizuru who just happens to be a LG godddess of honor and swordplay jumped out as an ideal choice.
I fully plan on getting a Keen Katana as soon as possible but didnt get into gear options with the basic outline.
I am focusing on two handing a weapon over TWF since Flurry of Blows will still generate a ton of attacks and a single weapon is far cheaper than maintaining two melee weapons or going for an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
with my latest build plan i can get flurry of blows with a katana by level 3. thanks to the Repose Domain from Shizuru and the domain strike feat i can automatically stagger an enemy once per turn around 7/day. At level 11 that will trigger Medusa's Wrath for 5 attacks. 6 for a point of Ki.
All in all it scales nicely, gets around some of the monetary penalties unarmed combatants normally need to eat and still feels flavorful.
I've played two or three Kensai before and while they are great fun, they dont come across as the wandering blade master kind of character i've wanted. this gives a much greater martial aspect to the character while maintianing some skill points and utility abilities.
I was considering the Nine-ring Broadsword for a little while and going pure Unchained Monk but if i were to monoclass i would probably go with that mix of Jabbing and Snake styles i weas batting around before. I will probably spec out an unarmed, nine ring and katana version and see what works best.
Torbyne wrote: The katana comes after considering the Ascetic Style that was suggested up thread. Normally Ascetic Style requires a monk weapon but there arent any monk weapons that i really care for. There are some very good monk weapons out there:
Sansetsukon: 1d10 19-20, blocking, and two handed.
Seven Branched Sword: 1d10 x3 and can make foes flat foooted.
Nine Section Whip: 1d8 19-20 and blocking, can be used one or two handed
Kusarigama: Multiple Damage types, reach, bad damage is overcome by monk damage scaling.
Dan Bong: Poor damage replaced by the style, can be thrown, blocking, and a +2 to grapples.
Ascetic Style opens up a whole new round of options for the aspiring Yamabushi...
Imbicatus wrote: Torbyne wrote: The katana comes after considering the Ascetic Style that was suggested up thread. Normally Ascetic Style requires a monk weapon but there arent any monk weapons that i really care for. There are some very good monk weapons out there:
Sansetsukon: 1d10 19-20, blocking, and two handed.
Seven Branched Sword: 1d10 x3 and can make foes flat foooted.
Nine Section Whip: 1d8 19-20 and blocking, can be used one or two handed
Kusarigama: Multiple Damage types, reach, bad damage is overcome by monk damage scaling.
Dan Bong: Poor damage replaced by the style, can be thrown, blocking, and a +2 to grapples.
I've been through the monk weapon list a few times since i decided on an Unchained Monk. The majority of them dont interest me either form lack luster functions or being unable to thematically enjoy them.
From your list i could do a Kusarigama and even started a thread asking how they function based on its somewhat lacking rules clarification in the books. It could be a very fun and functional weapon but it is a very different concept from what i started at.
As far as an unarmored blade master, most of those weapons really dont do it for me. Of the base Monk group only the Nine-Ring Broadsword has much of a cool factor. If i am going to go for it though the NRB isnt really enough on its own. The Ascetic Style chain comes across as a huge band-aid for the Monk money problem. A monk is already giving up a lot to boost their unarmed damage and AC, they need the more expensive Bracers of Armor, they give up their neck slot from Amulet of Natural Armor to the Amulet of Mighty Fists and that AoMF costs more to upgrade than a regular weapon. It also has a hard +5 cap instead of a +10. Ascetic just help get around two monk handicaps. It might do a lot to bring the class up and once everything is online the monk can have great AC, accuracy and damage... but it still feels like patch to unarmed combat. By dipping a level into the crusader cleric it brings in the Repose Domain and Domain Strike opens up, now my weapon using Monk can actually do something different than every other monk that has ever existed and starts to feel cool.
I am not very tied to the Katana, it is kind of over done in a lot of pop culture and i got over that phase years ago. But as far as dieties with a "traditional" sword as favored weapon as well as being lawful and offering interesting domain choices, Shizuru is one of the few i've seen.
By putting a one level gap in monk abilities there are enough gains to still make it interesting. Maybe I'll go with the Kusarigama if the GM and i come to agreement on how it works ahead of time. But if i am going to give up unarmed combat and all of the fun style options for the class patch style then i want something more to show for it than some savings in the bank.
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Imbicatus wrote: Well, the Sansetsukon also doubles as a coat hanger. Yeah, thats a thing that i want to like a lot more than i actually do. What was the film some year back where they have a massive tournament of everybody ever and the chinese main hero uses one of those? In practice i come back to.... its the same darn thing as my punches, it just make up for their crumminess for the first few levels. but to use it i give up on the cool style stuff. :/ choices man.
So, you figured out how to do MUSD with your Katana and use it for Flurry of Blows, spending only 1 level in Cleric? Good answer.
Developing Crit Feats doesn't depend upon taking Improved Critical: it looks like taking Crit Focus and Bleeding Critical using a Keen weapon instead of taking Improved Crit is just fine. I recommend you have a look at the Seize the Moment and Outflank feats, ooh, and Paired Opportunist.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: So, you figured out how to do MUSD with your Katana and use it for Flurry of Blows, spending only 1 level in Cleric? Good answer.
Developing Crit Feats doesn't depend upon taking Improved Critical: it looks like taking Crit Focus and Bleeding Critical using a Keen weapon instead of taking Improved Crit is just fine. I recommend you have a look at the Seize the Moment and Outflank feats, ooh, and Paired Opportunist.
I'm not familiar with MUSD, what that one mean?
Bleeding Critical might become a thing if the game goes on long enough. The teamwork feats might also come online if the party can actually work together. Thanks for the suggestions! :)
Sorry,
MUSD = Monk Unarmed Strike Damage
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Sorry,
MUSD = Monk Unarmed Strike Damage
Cool, that's a worthwhile acronym. I'm surprised i havent run across it on the boards before.
Any particular reason you brought up teamwork feats? I dont see anything in the class that favors them more than most of the other classes. Which is to say, they seem like something of a gamble.
Torbyne wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Sorry,
MUSD = Monk Unarmed Strike Damage
Cool, that's a worthwhile acronym. I'm surprised i havent run across it on the boards before.
Any particular reason you brought up teamwork feats? I dont see anything in the class that favors them more than most of the other classes. Which is to say, they seem like something of a gamble. I wasn't bringing up Teamwork Feats per se. I was bringing up Attack of Opportunity Feats that trigger on Critical Hits. Seize the Moment and Outflank are Teamwork Feats, but that's not the reason I mentioned them.
But they are Teamwork Feats, so I might mention that my favorite way to get them is via 1 level in Cavalier because it has a Class Ability that let you get around some of the Teamwork Feat requirements. There are other classes too, but that is the one I am most familiar with. Using Tactician to grant all your Allies Seize the Moment, the only thing required is that your allies Threaten the same guy you Threaten, and that is not super unlikely once they discover that you are giving out Attacks of Opportunity. It still can take some doing to get allies to work together, though.
hrmm, and yet more dipping. i was hoping to monoclass the character until i was seduced by all the add ins of a single level dip. Wonder if there is a monk that picks up Solo Tactics...
Torbyne wrote: hrmm, and yet more dipping. i was hoping to monoclass the character until i was seduced by all the add ins of a single level dip. Wonder if there is a monk that picks up Solo Tactics... There is a Warpriest that has Tactician.
I thought about it but i dont want to delay monk progression that much. I think i am set on dipping at level 2 for a single level of Crusader Cleric.
Trait wise, Honored Fist of the Society and Quain Martial Artist? I cant think of anything better.
After level 9 where should i go with feats, possibly go for some ranged feats to boost shurikens as a secondary option? If i understand Ascetic Style and Form correctly i could be dealing 1D10+str plus style striking, domain striking, or stunning fisting with them without any extra feat investment. Point Blank shot leading to Rapid Shot starts to look tempting. Is there anything else worth while for melee feats after these?
1: Power Attack, Dodge
2: Weapon Focus
3: Crusader's Flurry, Combat Reflexes
4: n/a
5: Domain Strike
6: n/a
7: Ascetic Style, Mobility
8: n/a
9: Ascetic Form
10: n/a
11: Medusa's Wrath, ???
Does using a two-handed weapon for a flurry still give you improved damage from Power Attack? If so was this something which changed in Unchained?
Shuriken have such a short range that I'd probably focus more on melee and mobility and leave shuriken as a backup to extend your reach a little. As for melee feats, Cornugon Smash or Enforcer could be nice for debuffing foes. You can add Hurtful if you think you'll have swift actions available. I've found the demoralize plus Hurtful combo with a Cruel weapon extremely effective in play. You get an extra attack, and the enemy gets -4 to attacks, -4 to saves, and -2 to damage.
@BadBird - I too was a little disappointed by the decreased likelihood of earning an AoO via Crane Riposte with the latest Crane errata as well as the fact that I can no longer choose which attacker to use my PC bonus against. I had started tracking the number of times the I would have gotten an AoO, been missed, or been hit with the old vs the new rules, but I quickly lost interest.
Devilkiller wrote: Does using a two-handed weapon for a flurry still give you improved damage from Power Attack? If so was this something which changed in Unchained?
IT has always given you two-handed power attack even in the CRB monk. The unchained monk allows 1.5 STR bonus in a flurry as well.
Devilkiller wrote: @BadBird - I too was a little disappointed by the decreased likelihood of earning an AoO via Crane Riposte with the latest Crane errata as well as the fact that I can no longer choose which attacker to use my PC bonus against. I had started tracking the number of times the I would have gotten an AoO, been missed, or been hit with the old vs the new rules, but I quickly lost interest. I actually don't mind the fact that the +4AC just 'floats' until it's used; it has it's up-side. But yeah, I don't know what they were thinking redoing it again.
@Imabticus - Wow, I never knew that. I guess everybody I played with figured that the Power Attack bonus was tied to the Str bonus. It certainly makes the OP's plan to use a katana (or other two-handed weapon) sound pretty good. I'd probably go with the sansetsukon myself. I've always liked the 3 part staff, especially since seeing "The Avenging Eagle" on the late late movie once when I was a teenager. I guess the fact that a bludgeoning weapon doesn't qualify for the Keen enchantment could be seen as a drawback if you're tight on feats though.
@BadBird - The repeated rules changes for my Crane PC have become a minor source of comedy, so I'm actually kind of looking forward to the next change. I'm surprised the PC is still legal at all. If Unchained Monk were compulsory he wouldn't be since he relies on the Martial Artist archetype to resolve an alignment conflict (Monk + Barbarian)
Devilkiller wrote: @Imabticus - Wow, I never knew that. I guess everybody I played with figured that the Power Attack bonus was tied to the Str bonus. It certainly makes the OP's plan to use a katana (or other two-handed weapon) sound pretty good. I'd probably go with the sansetsukon myself. I've always liked the 3 part staff, especially since seeing "The Avenging Eagle" on the late late movie once when I was a teenager. I guess the fact that a bludgeoning weapon doesn't qualify for the Keen enchantment could be seen as a drawback if you're tight on feats though.
@BadBird - The repeated rules changes for my Crane PC have become a minor source of comedy, so I'm actually kind of looking forward to the next change. I'm surprised the PC is still legal at all. If Unchained Monk were compulsory he wouldn't be since he relies on the Martial Artist archetype to resolve an alignment conflict (Monk + Barbarian)
Monks can take improved critical at level 10 and ascetic style at the point applies improved critical to all monk weapons, so there is that.
Devilkiller wrote: Does using a two-handed weapon for a flurry still give you improved damage from Power Attack? If so was this something which changed in Unchained?
Shuriken have such a short range that I'd probably focus more on melee and mobility and leave shuriken as a backup to extend your reach a little. As for melee feats, Cornugon Smash or Enforcer could be nice for debuffing foes. You can add Hurtful if you think you'll have swift actions available. I've found the demoralize plus Hurtful combo with a Cruel weapon extremely effective in play. You get an extra attack, and the enemy gets -4 to attacks, -4 to saves, and -2 to damage.
@BadBird - I too was a little disappointed by the decreased likelihood of earning an AoO via Crane Riposte with the latest Crane errata as well as the fact that I can no longer choose which attacker to use my PC bonus against. I had started tracking the number of times the I would have gotten an AoO, been missed, or been hit with the old vs the new rules, but I quickly lost interest.
That short range is kind of a deal breaker. There might be something to making a dedicated thrower monk with ascetic style and shuriken. Especially as ascetic form lets you mini pounce and full attack shuriken at the end of your movement. Focusing on ranged let's you use all of your feats for it too.
Would ascetic style let you power attack on ranged weapons? Would that stack with deadly aim?
Where is Ascetic Style from? I can't seem to find it online.
Devilkiller wrote: Where is Ascetic Style from? I can't seem to find it online. Weapon Master's Handbook. It's fairly new, so likely not available anywhere online yet.
yeah, the book doesn't even come out till this Wednesday.
Devilkiller wrote: If Unchained Monk were compulsory he wouldn't be since he relies on the Martial Artist archetype to resolve an alignment conflict (Monk + Barbarian) Fun fact: Unchained Monk/ Bloodrager has no alignment issues...
BadBird wrote: Devilkiller wrote: If Unchained Monk were compulsory he wouldn't be since he relies on the Martial Artist archetype to resolve an alignment conflict (Monk + Barbarian) Fun fact: Unchained Monk/ Bloodrager has no alignment issues... Nor does any other source of rage. Viking Fighter, wild stalker ranger, rage subdomain, anger inquisition, bloodrager, every other class that can rage except the barbarian can be lawful.
Imbicatus wrote: BadBird wrote: Devilkiller wrote: If Unchained Monk were compulsory he wouldn't be since he relies on the Martial Artist archetype to resolve an alignment conflict (Monk + Barbarian) Fun fact: Unchained Monk/ Bloodrager has no alignment issues... Nor does any other source of rage. Viking Fighter, wild stalker ranger, rage subdomain, anger inquisition, bloodrager, every other class that can rage except the barbarian can be lawful. Indeed, though the nice thing about Bloodrager is that it's a level 1 option for taking a single dip and some Extra Rage.
A Lawful PC I have with a couple of Monk levels actually just took a level in Bloodrager despite having a Charisma too low to cast spells. Next level he and my girlfriend's PC in that game will start enjoying some Amplified Rage (for a very limited number of rounds per day)
Bloodrager won't work for my other 2 levels of Monk PC since he's primarily a Feral Gnasher and that is a Barbarian archetype. The Feral Gnasher has an ability which leaves his hands free while he grapples with his Bite, and that allows the use of Crane Wing while grappling. He can maintain the grapple as a Move action and use Total Defense as a standard action, getting a big AC bonus, auto-deflecting one attack, and potentially making an AoO with an unarmed strike. Along with Body Shield and Stunning Fist this creates some pretty amusing 3 Stooges style situations when fighting mooks.
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