A ring of feather falling sounds like a great idea. That would effectively allow me to have both abilities. Though I may then need to decide between a ring of protection and a ring of sustenance though for the other slot.
Doesn't the "must move half speed" thing only apply to winged flight? Why would someone using magical flight not be able to hover?
So you say that not moving half flight speed a round equates to entering a dive bomb?
The paralysis wording of flight is what points to magic flight being mental as the only way they stay afloat in the immediate case is if they are still consciously holding themselves up. If they are consciously holding themselves up, then it doesn't require anything for them to stay afloat after being pushed over a cliff for two reasons: 1 its a free action if any at all to think of something (like levitate, since levitate isn't a move action) and 2 if it didn't, anyone with flight from this point forward would just hover an inch from the ground.
Intentional or no, it's still plummeting when you were flying fine just before (and from the physics of flight, it would still be a dive bomb, intentional, controlled, and streamlined have nothing to do with it).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Paralysis There is evidence that you stay afloat, you can also take the fact that magic flight (like via the fly spell) is a step up from levitate so you should be able to still levitate (witch flight hex certainly lets you), and the fly skill is still just for winged flight. Flight comes in many forms and they left it open ended because GMs are supposed to figure out what works and what doesn't: if I am a bird I cant levitate without some very careful control, however someone who flies with their mind or by channeling the lifting force out of their hands can levitate without issue. (For some reason supernatural flight doesn't immediately strike you as something that can only controlled via though.) Even if a check is still involved, if a creatures flight type logically allows it to fly without moving, then it both logically can hover without moving and can make flight checks even while being paralyzed or being thrust into situation's not on it's turn. This is a stupid argument of "the rules don't exist for it, therefore you can't do it" which is asinine and why we have intelligent people behind a blinder fold out. This is not a "you can't" it's a "the rules don't exist so the gm has to make it up as he goes" scenario.
So then everything for wingless flight is fiat, as no rules specifically for it exist, and the only ones that for all types do are so narrow in scope that most effects can not be determined by RAW. So we are left with our own logic, its direction we can agree to disagree.
Being stunned doesn't knock you prone...
Why would someone using magical flight not be able to hover?
Why WOULDN'T they? One should bring no pre-conceived notions to the table of how magic "should" work, because magic isn't real, so there's nothing on which to base default assumptions reasonably.
And that's why I go with what the spell explicitly says: That flying with it is as easy as walking!
Yes, the rules are really really badly written. Having a chart wothout explanations or discriptions for the entries is just unprofessional. The 3.5 chart did have descriptions, those were omitted in the PF CRB. The rules don't even work properly for winged flight because while they say "Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.", but failing the check by less than 5 has, as written, no ill effect.
Becase of this bad writing we have to guess the intention, even for winged flight. Winged flight is based on birds: The DCs are pretty consitent with how difficult the task is for a real bird (exept for the complet omission of the liftoff, larger birds need a running start for liftoff or face the wind, just like planes always take off upwind).
The main uplift is generated by wings passing through the air; furthered by lift generated from flapping the wings. If a birds moves fast enough, i.e. enough air passes it's wings, the flight is effortless (= no fly check nessessary). The slower the flight, the more a bird has to flap it's wings (DC 10 for moving at less then half speed). True hovering, which is generating lift through flapping alone, is something only few birds can do (DC 15 for hovering). The other fly checks represent things only very few birds (like hummingbirds) can do.
Because there is no real life magical flight, the Fly spell gives us a description - it's as easy as walking! In other fiction (e.g. Dragonball or superhero comics), hovering is the easiest part of supernatural flight and indeed in Pathfinder Levitate is a spell rank lower then Fly.
So unless the are saying that standing still is harder then walking, you either voilate that sentence, or hovering is effordless.
The "as easy as walking"-part directly contradicts the check required for hovering. I'd say it's a case for "specific trumps general".
If a check is still required for flying, since its entirely a mental action, then a dex based check shouldn't be involved (especially if its something like paralysis where your thought isn't hindered). The fly skill is more than obviously only designed with winged flight in consideration. Everything is fiat unless you railroad the mechanic into a skill that wasn't designed for/around the subsection.
The spell specifically says "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking..." which obviously means "flying=move action" but also means if I can not-walk fine, I can not-fly fine.
Simple solution to discrepancy: you can move inflight with checks unless outside influences force one (like dodging a moving object while flying).
More likely solution: allow a caster/concentration check when unable to control your self, sub casting stat for dex in flight, or use your brain. Something else you forget is "GM>rules" and if everyone thinks a rule is dumb, the rule might as well not exist.
If a check is still required for flying, since its entirely a mental action, then a dex based check shouldn't be involved (especially if its something like paralysis where your thought isn't hindered). The fly skill is more than obviously only designed with winged flight in consideration. Everything is fiat unless you railroad the mechanic into a skill that wasn't designed for/around the subsection.
The spell specifically says "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking..." which obviously means "flying=move action" but also means if I can not-walk fine, I can not-fly fine.
Simple solution to discrepancy: you can move inflight with checks unless outside influences force one (like dodging a moving object while flying).
More likely solution: allow a caster/concentration check when unable to control your self, sub casting stat for dex in flight, or use your brain. Something else you forget is "GM>rules" and if everyone thinks a rule is dumb, the rule might as well not exist.
Isn't the bonus to the Fly skills from the fly spell supposed to represent your superior mental control over your flying ability?
Hovering is a DC 15 check. It gives you 1/2 caster to Fly skill per the spell. You get it as a class skill so at level 6 you have 10 ranks + 3 for being level 6 + your dex so you should be more than fine, even if you roll a 1.
Could I use the ki throw feat to bypass a flying creatures Immunity to being triped? The feat says that on a successful trip attempt you throw an opponent prone in a square adjacent to you.
I guess what I'm asking here is am I still allowed to attempt to trip a flying creature to be able to throw them to the ground rather than simply trip them.
Trip entry as per d20pfsrd:
Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Hovering is a DC 15 check. It gives you 1/2 caster to Fly skill per the spell. You get it as a class skill so at level 6 you have 10 ranks + 3 for being level 6 + your dex so you should be more than fine, even if you roll a 1.
Huh? You can't have more ranks than you do levels. Assuming 18 Dex and a generous GM who let you take ranks in Fly without the ability to, you know, fly, you'd still only have +16.
6 skill ranks
4 Dexterity mod
3 class skill
3 spell bonus
More than likely though, you would only have one rank at level 6, leaving you with a respectable (but not automatic hover) +12 modifier.
After many deep thoughts.
I haz concluded that...
The difference between falling and flying is THE LANDING.
Hovering is a DC 15 check. It gives you 1/2 caster to Fly skill per the spell. You get it as a class skill so at level 6 you have 10 ranks + 3 for being level 6 + your dex so you should be more than fine, even if you roll a 1.Huh? You can't have more ranks than you do levels. Assuming 18 Dex and a generous GM who let you take ranks in Fly without the ability to, you know, fly, you'd still only have +16.
6 skill ranks
4 Dexterity mod
3 class skill
3 spell bonusMore than likely though, you would only have one rank at level 6, leaving you with a respectable (but not automatic hover) +12 modifier.
I was adding in the +4 for being a class skill and there's no reason why you can't put ranks in it if its a class skill.
Erm it doesn't say that. It says it requires as much concentration as walking. That does not mean it's necessarily as physically easy as walking.
Are you kidding me? You are trying to tell me that something that requires next to no concentration can be considered a difficult task?
There IS however, a penalty for failing certain ones of your checks by 1 or more. Namely, hovering and not flying far enough. If you fail these by 1 or more, you fall, as written.
Where is that written? Give me a quote, please.
This is clearly established, on the other hand, by the fact that the fly spell gives you a bonus to your fly check, which would make no sense if it didn't require fly checks.
Apart from the fact that the Fly spell also states a maneuverability, something that only has an effect for natural flight, I would still require a check for flying up at a greater than 45° angle (that's like climbing a ladder or exceptionally steep stairway). Probably also for turning 180°, if only because Flyby Attack is severly lacking prereqs otherwise.
Oh, and just because the developers tried to impose a kind of tax skill for flying, doesn't mean the rules actually do that.The difference between falling and flying is THE LANDING.
What's the fly check DC for a telemark landing?
@Texas Snyper: "You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability)."
Doesn't matter if it's a class skill, you can't put ranks in it at level 1.
I was adding in the +4 for being a class skill and there's no reason why you can't put ranks in it if its a class skill.Hovering is a DC 15 check. It gives you 1/2 caster to Fly skill per the spell. You get it as a class skill so at level 6 you have 10 ranks + 3 for being level 6 + your dex so you should be more than fine, even if you roll a 1.Huh? You can't have more ranks than you do levels. Assuming 18 Dex and a generous GM who let you take ranks in Fly without the ability to, you know, fly, you'd still only have +16.
6 skill ranks
4 Dexterity mod
3 class skill
3 spell bonusMore than likely though, you would only have one rank at level 6, leaving you with a respectable (but not automatic hover) +12 modifier.
But you only get a +3 bonus for it being a class skill, and that bonus doesn't count as additional ranks. Were you thinking of having a trait that makes it into a class skill and also adds an additional +1 trait bonus, perhaps?
Okay then:
1 rank
3 class skill
3 half level spell bonus
4 dex mod
You only fail on a three or less at 6 and stop failing at 8.
Okay then:
1 rank
3 class skill
3 half level spell bonus
4 dex modYou only fail on a three or less at 6 and stop failing at 8.
With regard to rules forum, it only really would matter if it was NEVER relevant, but it is definitely sometimes relevant, and the question still needs answering.
Because wizards exist in the game with 8 dex, no ranks, etc., and they need rulings when they fail their checks on 5 or less...
(by the way you forgot the +4 for good maneuverability)
Ah, didn't realize that they get that. So:
1 rank
3 class skill
3 half level spell bonus
X dex mod
4 good mobility
With a dex mod of 3, you are guaranteed to pass a hover check (before size modifiers to fly) at 6 with 1 rank in the skill.
With a dex mod of 3, you are guaranteed to pass a hover check (before size modifiers to fly) at 6 with 1 rank in the skill.Not if you have DEX 10.
Also even if you do pass it yourself, what about casting fly on the party cleric who doesn't have any ranks in fly and doesn't have fly as a class skill? he may also be level 6, but will only add up to a (7+dex) on his checks (half your CL + good maneuverability + dex), thus still may need rulings on hovering or moving slowly (not even guaranteed to make the slow flying check), etc.
OP's post was about an air kineticist. Wings of Air is self only, and they get fly as a class skill. I was referencing these facts for this situation. As a CON/DEX based class, they should have a DEX mod of 3 even before elemental overflow's +2 size bonus.
For situations outside the given parameters, things are obviously going to be different and should be calculated as such.
More than likely though, you would only have one rank at level 6, leaving you with a respectable (but not automatic hover) +12 modifier.
Why would you only have 1 rank in it? You hit level 6 and gain X new skill points, put as many of those as you want (up to 6) into the fly skill.
The rule isn't that you can add 1 skill point each time you gain a level, the rule is only that you can't have more ranks in a skill then your level, but if you want to dump 5 points into a new skill at a given level, you can do so.
Isn't the bonus to the Fly skills from the fly spell supposed to represent your superior mental control over your flying ability? No, because you have the same bonus from the spell whether you are Bob Int 20 ArchMage or Joe, Int 6 Fighter he cast it on.[QUOTE="Ravingdork"
Simple solution to discrepancy: you can move inflight with checks unless outside influences force one (like dodging a moving object while flying).
More likely solution: allow a caster/concentration check when unable to control your self, sub casting stat for dex in flight, or use your brain. Something else you forget is "GM>rules" and if everyone thinks a rule is dumb, the rule might as well not exist.
The whole argument that you use gliding rule on your movement with magical flight is (if you don't move x distance you fall) is ridiculous. You're not gliding, ergo you don't use gliding rules. Flying arms stretched out without wings is not gliding. If you are using some magical propulsion and you stop being able to control your vectoring (from say paralysis) you keep flying in the last movement direction, and probably start veering based on vectoring at the exact moment you were paralyzed; if you control your position with your mind, and you are paralyzed, you can still control you grid position but you are helpless to any attack. GM trumps rules and when there are no rules/the rules don't apply, only the GM matters.
You don't get the +4 "good" maneuverability bonus unless it is a NATURAL fly speed (that is, wings or innate flight, not from a spell or item).
More than likely though, you would only have one rank at level 6, leaving you with a respectable (but not automatic hover) +12 modifier.Why would you only have 1 rank in it? You hit level 6 and gain X new skill points, put as many of those as you want (up to 6) into the fly skill.
The rule isn't that you can add 1 skill point each time you gain a level, the rule is only that you can't have more ranks in a skill then your level, but if you want to dump 5 points into a new skill at a given level, you can do so.
Quite right. I'm just used to maxing out all my skills all the time. :P
when there are no rules/the rules don't applyThere ARE rules that apply: It says very clearly that if you don't move far enough, and fail a DC 10 check, then you no longer remain flying. So that's what happens, because that is an objective rule that applies to both winged and magical flight (because it says in the skill that the skill applies to both in general, and no exception is mentioned for that check in particular).
You are free to make up whatever backstory you like about your vision of the physics of how it works, so long as your backstory results in somebody falling if they don't move far enough in their turn. Otherwise if your backstory does not account for all written rules, then your backstory is not RAW.
Your particular story that "you aren't gliding, gravity is negated, and your mind acts like a space shuttle thruster with velocity being imparted and then momentum continuing if it isn't reversed" fails the test, because it does not account for the fact that you DO fall if you don't move half your velocity. This story does not explain all written rules, so it is not a RAW compliant story.
GM overrules raw, as already pointed out, and we are assuming GM=voice_of_reason; since, if he doesn't what is he good for? When the basis of a rule doesn't make sense, as "go x distance or fall" is clearly based on gliding and there is no other logical way to explain it and there is no way to implement gliding into a magic flight (because wingless creatures are not aerodynamic), the RAW gives way to logic. If a rule said "whenever a nonmagical arrow missed its target, it continues to orbit the planet at light speed and you get 7.5 rerolls unless you at some point hit" do you believe it wouldn't or shouldn't be throw out. That is why the GM is in charge, so we have a brain manning the helm of rule lawyering hysteria. Rules explain reality in a way that integrates with the system, not the other way around; if you can't explain a rule with more than "it's a rule" then you are wasting people's time. (Speaking of which, although there isn't a better "universal abstraction" to use, why should a giant with a fly speed of 20 only have move 10ft a round while a pixie with a fly speed of 100 have to move 50 to avoid this falling?)
So then everything for wingless flight is fiat, as no rules specifically for it exist, and the only ones that for all types do are so narrow in scope that most effects can not be determined by RAW. So we are left with our own logic, its direction we can agree to disagree.No, rules DO exist for some aspects of wingless flight. The primary example in this case is that there IS a rule for when you move too little in your turn, and then fail to pass the DC 10 fly check involved.
Since it says you have to pass that check "to remain flying," one can unambiguously conclude that if you fail to, you no longer remain flying, thus you fall.
As for the exact mechanical fluff description of how one flies (whether you flap your arms or only use mental powers), that's up to the GM fiat yes, but falling when you don't move enough and fail your DC 10 check is not up to GM fiat.
Actually the Fly spell says that you control it with a minor amount of concentration, it in NO way implies that you have to flap your arms (your hands remain free to use).
"Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"
So, as much concentration as walking is the level of mental exertion required.
If your GM wants to add text to the spell declaring it to sprout wings or whatever, he is free to houserule that, as always, but as printed...
No physical requirements listed. Zero. None.
the RAW gives way to logic.Sure, and you'll get no argument or objection from me if you wish to make a house rule to say that at your table, you no longer fall if you don't move if you are magically flying, on the basis of you finding it more logical. That's totally cool and is totally playable.
GM overrules raw, as already pointed outNot all posters of threads are GMs...
Ok... good for you, back to the discussion.
[The] Game Master (or GM) is the player who arbitrates the rules of the game and controls the actions of every game element that isn’t explicitly controlled by the other players.
"Arbitrates" means they supersede the written rules. Your point is either irrelevant or unclear.