I couldn't figure out how to make a Gnome fighter, so I thought the next best thing would be to make a human fighter, raised by gnomes, using gnome weapons and techniques, as per the Gnomes of Golarion book.
I mainly have questions about the order in which I should position my feats, but also, I'm not sure how much of this is PFS legal, and to what extent I'll have to develop contigencies in case GMs rule against aspects of my build. I hope I can use a whole host of gnome weapons, but am prepared to only use the gnome hooked hammer. I think tripping is a must, and reach weapons are preferred. TWF is optional, but also perhaps required, if I'm going to be using a signature double weapon.
The point buy:
18 STR (with +2 racial)
15 DEX
10 CON
13 INT
10 WIS
10 CHA
The str is a bit high for the concept I initially imagined, but for a melee fighter, I sort of feel like I have no choice. I considered dropping it by 2 to raise CHA by 2, but I don't think I have the feats and skill points to make use of bluffs and feints anyway. The dex is enough for TWF, and I can also take advantage of armor training, and combat reflexes. The int is high enough for combat expertise, and the trip feats.
Conservative feats:
Human 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Gnome Hooked Hammer
Character 1: Weapon Focus: Gnome Hooked Hammer
Fighter 1: Combat Expertise
Fighter 2: Improved Trip
Character 3: TWF
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Gnome Hooked Hammer
Character 5: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 6: Greater Trip.
I don't really see any room for feinting feats in there, or much of anything else.
What I really want, instead of those first two feats:
Human Trait: Adoptive Parentage: Gnomes. This racial trait replaces the human bonus feat, but provides additional languages, and weapon familiarity.
Character 1: Ancestral Weapon Mastery. Can be used to grant weapon-focus with gnome weapons.
Ideally, I could use the ripsaw glaive, the flailpole, and the battle ladder, if I so chose. But I understand there's some uncertainty as to what's a "gnome weapon," so I want to be able to swtich to the Gnome Hooked Hammer on the fly if I need to.
If a GM did not count the other gnome weapons as part of the weapon familiarity, could I reasonable ask the GM to consider my ripsaw glaive as a guisarme, my flask thrower as a sling, and my battle ladder as a quarter staff? This would let me eventually buy masterwork weapons without fear.
Armor track
I can afford 125GP Four Mirror Armor at level 1, and it'll provide me 18AC until level 3. 250gp would get me to 19AC, but I'd rather buy more or better weapons.
At Level 3, I can pay 1650GP flcor masterwork Fullplate to get 21 AC, which will bump up to 22 at level 7. Along the way I'll also be able to pay for enchantments, I expect. It think this is the most cost effective way to go.
Weapons
At level 1, I was hoping to buy a gnome hooked hammer and a sling with bullets, leaving me less than 5gp to spend. I guess I could buy rope.
Is there a good reason to save some money, and only buy an 8gp guisarme and maybe a spiked gauntlet? Or should my first level feat be TWF, and start off dual wielding a club and a wooden stake, or a quarter staff? I chose Combat Expertise first because it basically kept things simple for me, cancelling out with Weapon Focus if I just wanted to increase my AC by 1.
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Suggest you get spiked armor, also you don't need to start with 18 str.
20 point buy can look like the following:
16 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 wis, 13 int, 10 cha.
Don't bother about twf, just the reach. Since most reach weapons are not TWFable.
Combat reflexes should be at lv 1, you don't need improved trip if things don't have the reach to hit you. Also find a space for power attack - some things in PFS cannot be tripped, ie, fliers and snakes.
Id drop some wep focus and weapon specialization for iron will and improved iron will.
With 14 dex I'd rather use a breastplate. Full plate only gives +1 dex bonus, and is expensive like heck.
If you like tripping - consider looking at Lorewarden (Fighter Archtype) in Pathfinder Society Field Type. They get some really nice bonuses to CMB and CMD, but lose their medium and heavy armor proficiency.
Racial Heritage Gnome doesn't get one Weapon Familiarity of gnomes.
Get Adopted Parentage from Advanced Race Guide if you got the book.
Adoptive Parentage
Humans are sometimes orphaned and adopted by other races. Choose one humanoid race without the human subtype. You start play with that race’s languages and gain that race’s weapon familiarity racial trait (if any). If the race does not have weapon familiarity, you gain either Skill Focus or Weapon Focus as a bonus feat that is appropriate for that race instead. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
Scores you gnome weapon familiarity and you can use a gnome pincher as a backup weapon. Plus adopted parentage works real well with the raised by gnomes angle.
Instead of Combat Expertise if you want to get maneuver feats, pick up Dirty Fighting feat from Dirty Tactics Toolbox. It MAY seem silly to pick up one book. I assure you it's not. That feat alone is worth it so NONE of your PFS characters are stuck using Combat Expertise for maneuver feats. Even counts for Int prereqs so you can lower your gnome-raised fighter's Int too if you'd like. Would definitely help in order to pay for that Dex 15 for TWF.
I'd say keep your Strength high. CMB doesn't scale as fast as CMB especially compared to bigger monsters, so might as well increase your chances. Remember since you're using weapon to trip, you can benefit from Weapon Focus and enhancement bonuses to your weapon to apply to your CMB too.
I know you've built this Fighter as baseline, but have you considered going with the Lore Warden archetype for this build (tripper). I think the flavor of that archetype works well for a 'human raised by gnomes,' and you get:
- Combat Expertise for free
- A scaling bonus to your CMB
- Know Your Enemy (which give additional bonus to CMB when active)
20 pt. buy stats
STR: 17 (+2 Racial)
DEX: 14
CON: 15
INT: 13 (for Imp./Gr. Trip)
WIS: 10
CHA: 8 (only a -1 and frees up some points)
1st attribute bonus (lvl 4) to STR
2nd attribute bonus (lvl 8) to CON
Feats
Character 1: Exotic Weapon Prof.*
Human 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 1: Power Attack
Lore Warden 2: Combat Expertise (free)
Fighter 2: Improved Trip
Character 3: Iron Will
Fighter 4: Weapon Focus*
Character 5: Improved Initiative
Fighter 6: Greater Trip
Character 7: Lunge
This is, of course, ignoring the possibility of Adopted/Adoptive Parentage etc, but you can easily sub them in if they're allowed. I think the overall build is a little more likely to succeed as a tripping build, and could add a lot of battlefield control through threatening a big area (bigger with Enlarge Person and Armor Spikes), and able to attack into an even bigger area – ~80 squares if my count is right, including the 4 your would occupy, but not counting attacks you could make on your turn with Lunge.
Instead of Combat Expertise if you want to get maneuver feats, pick up Dirty Fighting feat from Dirty Tactics Toolbox. It MAY seem silly to pick up one book. I assure you it's not. That feat alone is worth it so NONE of your PFS characters are stuck using Combat Expertise for maneuver feats. Even counts for Int prereqs so you can lower your gnome-raised fighter's Int too if you'd like.
That's a fun one. Going to file that away for future use. :)
EDIT: Realized I initially mistyped on the number of squares -- you won't threaten all of the squares around you and the squares of your Reach weapon at the same time.
Racial Heritage Gnome doesn't get one Weapon Familiarity of gnomes.No?
you are considered both... for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on."Feats" would seem to include Martial Weapon Proficiency: that's a Feat. "For the purpose of taking" the Martial Weapon Proficiency Feat, "you are considered" a Gnome.
What you're describing is when one can TAKE the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, not that it's automatically GRANTED to them.
If a human fighter picks up Racial Heritage (gnome) feat, he'd still need to pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnome hook hammer) because Racial Heritage's ability to allow him to qualify for a feat doesn't mean he's autoproficient in anything as the feat doesn't give anything for free, just allows him to qualify. When those exotic race specific weapons say "if you're a [race] you treat this weapon as martial", they're referring to weapon familiarity. Weapon familiarity is an actual racial trait, which can be swapped out for something else with alternative racial traits, and such creatures that take that option won't treat those weapons as martial no matter what the item description says.
Adopted Parentage actually grants another race's Weapon Familiarity racial trait and a human fighter would score gnome weapons as martial weapons.
Racial heritage doesn't grant weapon familiarity, which is the actual ability which would allow a gnome fighter to treat gnome weapons as martial. A half-elf counts as elf and can get elven feats and spells or effects that affect elves would affect half-elves. But while an Elven Branched Spear says "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons", that's actually referring to the elf's weapon familiarity racial trait, which simply having the elf subtype or counting as an elf doesn't grant even if the half-elf is a fighter. The same case would apply for a human with Racial Heritage (elf). And for the OP's case, human with Racial Heritage (gnome) wouldn't do him any immediate good.
Instead of making a new thread, I'll just link some old ones with that discussion.
1 - has the elven branched spear discussion I've used as an example.
2 - dwarven waraxe
3 - elf and dwarven weapons
4 - more dwarf weapons
5 - more in-depth talk on how Racial Heritage doesn't grant racial traits
When those exotic race specific weapons say "if you're a [race] you treat this weapon as martial", they're referring to weapon familiarity.Yes, for a Gnome to gain proficiency in Hooked Hammer, they need only to take the Martial Weapon Proficiency Feat, and when a Gnome takes a level in Fighter, he is proficient in all Martial Weapons and doesn't need to take the Feat at all.
When a Human takes Racial Heritage Gnome, he counts as a Gnome for the purpose of taking Feats, including the Martial and Exotic weapon proficiency feats.
Racial Heritage's ability to allow him to qualify for a feat doesn't mean he's autoproficient in anything as the feat doesn't give anything for free, just allows him to qualify.Nobody's saying you get something for Free. You still have to take a level in Fighter or something.
Remember that Racial Heritage is not limited to qualifying as the selected race for the purposes of meeting prerequisites,
you are considered both... for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.You don't have to take EWP Hooked Hammer when you are a Human with Racial Heritage Gnome because you count as a Gnome for the purpose of taking Feats.
If you want to continue arguing about the rules, perhaps you should start a new thread and link to it here: I'm willing. But meanwhile, I stand behind my advice to the OP: I think it's just swell, and I think I've made my reasoning clear.
You are incorrect. A human with racial heritage (Gnome) does not get the Weapon Familiarity racial trait, and so does not not count the Gnome Hooked Hammer as a martial weapon. Protoman has it right.
Racial heritage doesn't grant weapon familiarity,You are incorrect. A human with racial heritage (Gnome) does not get the Weapon Familiarity racial trait, and so does not not count the Gnome Hooked Hammer as a martial weapon. Protoman has it right.I have proven that Racial Heritage DOES grant weapon familiarity. Neither of you have come up with proof, and you've already made 4 proofless posts.
You very much did not. That was your first time you ever mentioned "Weapon Familiarity". Your argument is that because it affects how Martial Proficiency if one counts as a gnome, it'll be the same effect as Weapon Familiarity. But just counting as a gnome isn't Weapon Familiarity. The whole gnome benefiting from gnome hook hammers as a martial weapon is from Weapon Familiarity racial trait, not "count as a gnome" as I've made that example argument with half-elf and elven weapons (also half-elves have the human and elf subtypes, and even stronger case than Racial Heritage).
Instead of making a new thread, I'll just link some old ones with that discussion.You can go ahead and link to some old discussions, but I find it unlikely that your other discussions will yield any proof, because if you had proof, you'd've offered it already.
I'd suggest looking at some of those threads because there's bunch of similar reasoning from folks who are worth listening to. Plus you can learn about Racial Heritage more.
My advice is based on some pretty straightforward ideas:Weapon Familiarity pertains to the Exotic and Martial weapon proficiency Feats.
Racial Heritage specifically states that you count as the race you choose for your character for the purposes of taking Feats.
So, you can treat your Racial Weapons as Martial Weapons for the purpose of taking Feats.
Your counter argument that generally Racial Heritage does not grant the chosen Races basic Traits is interesting and not untrue. But the Specific Trait we are talking about, Weapon Familiarity, pertains to Feats, and Racial Heritage DOES apply to Feats. Specific trumps general.
The Racial Heritage feat doesn't grant racial traits of the race. It just lets you qualify for feats, non-racial but race traits, arguably archetypes, or effects that affect that race. Effects that affect that race does not include racial traits such as Weapon Familiarity, even if it's about feats. Saying "specific trumps general" doesn't apply there because racial traits aren't effects.
Just because a racial trait affects how one gets a feat, and another ability lets you count as a race for a feat, doesn't mean they got that racial trait to benefit in a specific way that a race does.
For example, a human with Racial Heritage (kitsune) can count as a kitsune for the Realistic Likeness feat, but they don't have the racial trait "Change Shape" to actually benefit from it.
Just because Weapon Familiarity affects feats, you don't actually have the racial trait to pick up Martial Weapon (gnome hook hammer) because it's not about counting as a gnome, it's about having the gnome's Weapon Familiarity.
I am making this post because I gave my advice, and I stand behind my advice. I have addressed Protoman's and Gisher's concerns, and I have proven, using the rules, that my advice is legal.
You skipped some steps in your thinking for your proof. One's free to give advice, others also to critique it.
Protoman's entire point is that while the Racial Heritage feat might qualify you to take Martial Weapon Proficiency (feat) for a Gnome Hooked Hammer, it doesn't automatically impart that feat.Nobody said that that any Gnome Trait or the Racial Heritage Feat automatically imparts proficiency in Gnome Hooked Hammer. I don't know where you get that. Not from me.
"being proficient with all martial weapons" and having a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat are actually two different things mechanically. Just because they use the same words doesn't mean they're the same thing. The feat grants proficiency with a single weapon, the other is a class feature. The class feature doesn't actually grant the feat.I must admit I felt better about my position before you raised this point, but
Your entire argument falls apartno, I think my argument still stands. Racial Heritage Gnome says you count as a Gnome for the purposes of taking feats, including Exotic Weapon Proficiency Hooked Hammer. That means that to gain proficiency with Hooked Hammer, a Human Fighter with Racial Heritage Gnome doesn't have to take EWP Hooked Hammer. The wording "for the purpose of taking feats" goes beyond just Prerequisites.
It isn't being a gnome, though, that lets you consider gnomish exotic weapons to be martial weapons. It's possessing the Weapon Familiarity racial trait. A gnome with the Fey Thoughts alternate racial trait does not get to consider gnomish exotic weapons to be martial weapons.
I know you've built this Fighter as baseline, but have you considered going with the Lore Warden archetype for this build (tripper). I think the flavor of that archetype works well for a 'human raised by gnomes,' and you get:
- Combat Expertise for free
- A scaling bonus to your CMB
- Know Your Enemy (which give additional bonus to CMB when active)
I'm a big fan of the Lore Warden archetype. You also get extra skill points to spend and get all knowledge skills as class skills.
Another possibility for any kind of maneuver build is a one-level Brawler dip. Being able to learn maneuver feats on the fly is a huge advantage. You can avoid all those situation-specific issues. (Oh, you're flying and I can't trip you? Fine--I'll learn Grapple. You don't have a weapon to disarm, Mr. Evil Wizard? How about I sunder your spell component pouch, then? etc.)
I'm late to return to the thread, but I really want to offer a great THANKS to everyone involved.
On the gnome side of things, I've gathered that
> Adoptive Parentage (gnome) racial trait replaces human bonus feat. Grants extra languages (gnome and sylvan) and weapon familiarity (gnome hooked hammer, at the very least). For a fighter, this frees up exotic weapon proficiency.
> Racial Heritage (gnome) feat lets you count as a gnome for the purpose of taking feats and archetypes and whatever else. It provides no other benefits.
> Gnome Weapon Focus might be a feat that a human with racial heritage (gnome) could take, and as far as I can tell, it'd stack with weapon focus.
> Ancestral Weapon Mastery requires a weapon familiarity racial trait, which Adopted Parentage grants. It grants proficiency with the familiar weapons, and Weapon focus with one of the weapons if you're already proficient in them. Potentially replaces Weapon Focus.
On the subject of archetypes, I did some research and found that a Free-style Fighter archetype gets the Brawler's martial flexibility.
The flexibility seems promising, assuming I could use a gnome snarl shield for disarming, a flail pole, gnome hooked hammer, or battle ladder for tripping, and a piston-maul for sundering.