My understanding is that half-elves are considered both human and elven for such things. Similarly, half-orcs are both human and orc.
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On the one hand, it seems clearly intended to be part of the elven weapon familiarity racial trait.
On the other hand, by strict RAW, the wording does support your reading of the weapon.
As a GM, I'd rule the first way. But for PFS or strict-RAW, there's a strong case for the second.
Hope this helps. :)
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Half elfs dosent have weapon familiarity. So most likely not. But by strict RAW yes.
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It seems to be an outlier when compared to the other racial weapons (weapons with specific racial names). So either they were going to have a "fluffier" name than Elven Branched Spear or they added it purposefully. *shrugs*
My guess is that it's meant as reminder text. The dwarven dorn-dergar includes the same text... although there are no half-dwarves to confuse the issue. Same goes for the gnome hooked hammer, which is from the Core Rulebook, where gnomes' familiarity is noted elsewhere. It is curious that the orc skull ram contains no such text, though, despite being from the same book as the elven branched spear. The elven curve blade omits the text, despite sharing a book with the aforementioned gnome hooked hammer.
So, yeah. I'm thinking reminder text. :)
It's probably safer to assume the answer is no. If you still want it you can use Ancestral Arms to get it.
It's on d20pfsrd.
Elven branched spear, 20 gp, 1d8, ×3, 10 lbs., P, brace, reach
"Behind this long pole weapon's spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade. When you make attacks of opportunity provoked by movement, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an elven branched spear sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
RAW yes, half elves can use it as such
RAI no, it's pretty clear it's there to be used as part of Elven Weapon Familiarity.
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Neither Racial Heritage (Gnome) nor Racial Heritage (Dwarf) grant you proficiency with the Hook Hammer nor Dorn-Derger, nor does Racial Heritage (Gnoll) give you the Flindbar.
Adoptive Parentage - and Human Alternate Racial Feature - however, does. You gain Weapon Familiarity with the weapon.
Therefore, assume that, in order for a Half-Elf to gain access to a Branch-Spear, you'd have to take Ancestral Arms.
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It's on d20pfsrd.
Elven branched spear, 20 gp, 1d8, ×3, 10 lbs., P, brace, reach
"Behind this long pole weapon's spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade. When you make attacks of opportunity provoked by movement, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an elven branched spear sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Seems like it would be a pretty good option for Reach Cleric builds.
The Elven Branched Spear from the Melee Tactics Toolbox has the line "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Does this mean half-elves treat it as a martial weapon as well?
No... elven weapon familliarity is a racial Trait, as opposed to trait.
The half-elves don't get it. Half-orcs on the other hand do get access to orc weapon proficiencies as it's built into their racial trait. Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
No such line exists for half-elves.
I think you're missing the point of the argument. I don't think anyone is arguing that the regular Elven weapon familiarity racial trait would grant this to half-elves. The point is that the weapon description specifically states that Elves treat it as martial, and half-elves count as elves for all effects.
Without that last sentence, there would be no question, but if half-elves do not treat it as martial, that last sentence is a redundant repetition of the existing Evlen weapon familiarity trait.
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The Elven Branched Spear from the Melee Tactics Toolbox has the line "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Does this mean half-elves treat it as a martial weapon as well?
No... elven weapon familliarity is a racial Trait, as opposed to trait.
The half-elves don't get it. Half-orcs on the other hand do get access to orc weapon proficiencies as it's built into their racial trait. Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
No such line exists for half-elves.
I think you're missing the point of the argument. I don't think anyone is arguing that the regular Elven weapon familiarity racial trait would grant this to half-elves. The point is that the weapon description specifically states that Elves treat it as martial, and half-elves count as elves for all effects.
Without that last sentence, there would be no question, but if half-elves do not treat it as martial, that last sentence is a redundant repetition of the existing Evlen weapon familiarity trait.
Note that, upthread, I listed other weapons where such redundancy exists - one such weapon is even from the Core Rulebook. :)
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This isn't about getting proficiency with it. It's about treating it as Martial rather than Exotic. Half-Orcs have a specific racial trait that says they treat any weapon with the word "orc" in its name as Martial; this way, they don't need to specify it in each new "orc" weapon. However, if you have the Orc subtype by some other means, either Racial Heritage, the Orc bloodline, etc. only weapons that say in their description, "Orcs treat this as a Martial weapon" would allow you to treat them as Martial rather than Exotic. Same goes for other races. Racial Heritage(Gnome) won't automatically make you proficient with Gnome Hook-Hammers, but it will allow you to treat them as Martial, rather than Exotic, weapons because the Hook Hammer says so.
So, yes, for Elves, Half-Elves, characters with Racial Heritage(Elf), custom made characters with the Elf subtype, and any other situation in which your character has the Elf subtype or, otherwise, counts as an Elf, you treat both the ECB and the EBS as Martial, rather than Exotic weapons; this doesn't make you proficient automatically, just changes it from exotic proficiency to martial.
Actually, the elven curve blade doesn't have the line. So only elves with the appropriate racial trait can treat it as martial.
Another fun thought, though: by the strict-RAW discussed in this thread, elves with the fleet-footed alternate racial trait still treat it as martial, despite having traded out the elven weapon familiarity racial trait.
Also, per this, Racial Heritage (gnome) lets you martially wield a hooked hammer.
None of this is anywhere near RAI, I must assume; still, it's interesting trivia, and if your GM will let you, go right ahead. :)
If a Half-Elf can be an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle (and per the FAQ they can) then a Half-Elf can use the Elven Branch Spear by RDN's line of thinking.
I'm pretty sure this was just a failure in editing in a splat book (not exactly the most uncommon thing) though so I wouldn't put too much stock in the RAW. Most GM's are going to say no.
Effects refer to things such as getting hit with elven bane weapons, not racial traits.The Elven Branched Spear from the Melee Tactics Toolbox has the line "Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Does this mean half-elves treat it as a martial weapon as well?
No... elven weapon familliarity is a racial Trait, as opposed to trait.
The half-elves don't get it. Half-orcs on the other hand do get access to orc weapon proficiencies as it's built into their racial trait. Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.
No such line exists for half-elves.
I think you're missing the point of the argument. I don't think anyone is arguing that the regular Elven weapon familiarity racial trait would grant this to half-elves. The point is that the weapon description specifically states that Elves treat it as martial, and half-elves count as elves for all effects.
Without that last sentence, there would be no question, but if half-elves do not treat it as martial, that last sentence is a redundant repetition of the existing Evlen weapon familiarity trait.
Again, nobody's saying they get it as a martial weapon because of the elf racial trait. The question is whether the description of the weapon is intended to be merely a reminder of the racial trait or its own rule, and secondarily how it should be treated in PFS where the intent of the rule doesn't matter.
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It's on d20pfsrd.
Elven branched spear, 20 gp, 1d8, ×3, 10 lbs., P, brace, reach
"Behind this long pole weapon's spearhead, several short branches project from the shaft at irregular intervals, each angled forward and tipped with a smaller leaf-like blade. When you make attacks of opportunity provoked by movement, you gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an elven branched spear sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons."
Seems like it would be a pretty good option for Reach Cleric builds.
That was my initial thought until I realized that Clerics aren't proficient with martial weapons.
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weapon familliarity is not a racial class favored option.
Pretty sure you're being deliberately obtuse now.
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LazarX is getting so caught up in the Weapon Familiarity racial trait of elves, that he completely forgot to address Elf Blood from the half-elf description.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elf Blood interacts with the specific language of the weapons to mimic the elven Weapon Familiarity.
Elves treat elven branched spears as martial weapons.
That line is pretty clearly an effect related to race. I don't think this interaction was intended, but it would be fun to argue.
Unless it was included specifically for that reason...
Unless it was included specifically for that reason...Why bother? Weapon familiarity already specifies Elves treat 'Elven' weapons as Martial; why add superfluous lines? As it is written, the most logical conclusion is that the specified line in the EBS is a standalone with no connection to the Elf racial trait.
Space ALWAYS seems to be at a premium, so I agree it would seem very odd to insert redundant text when it's unneeded.
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I'm not sure what it says about general faith in Paizo's copy-editing when over half the posters who weigh in think a whole sentence is not RAI. That aside...
Another fun thought, though: by the strict-RAW discussed in this thread, elves with the fleet-footed alternate racial trait still treat it as martial, despite having traded out the elven weapon familiarity racial trait.
I was thinking about this point at work. I guess its nice, that if you traded away your weapon familiarity before this book came out you may be able (depending on your class's proficiencies) to still use an item out of a $10 book you bought without spending a feat on it.
The weapons below have a equivalent lines in them, so by RAW the appropriate Racial Heritage could get you:
Dwarven Urgrosh (Dwarf)
Elven Branched Spear (Elf)
Gnome Hooked- Hammer (Gnome)
Gnome Pincher (Gnome)
Halfling Rope-Shot (Halfling)
Halfling-Sling Staff (Halfling)
Kestros (Halfling)
It's nice to think Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson could use an urgrosh.
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Semantics
You're right of course that I should have said "Isn't heavily disincentivized from using".
But, if you were playing at a table with a martial PC and they were taking the -4 non-proficiency penalty all game long, I hope you would ask them about it. It's equivalent to the to hit bonus of:
- 4 to 5 levels BAB
- 8 str or dex
- the Weapon Training of a 17th level fighter
- 15th level Inquisitor's Justice Judgement
- 5th level Ranger's Favored Enemy
- 15th level Slayer's Studied Target
- etc...
I'd have a similar talk to anyone who was TWF with two one-handed weapons (without an effortless lace, two sawtoothed sabers, etc).
I'm not saying PCs have to all be optimized/max theory-crafted, but my character's all have very good roleplaying reasons for wanting a party member to not be bad at their jobs, my characters want to live. Be sure that in real life if someone's behavior almost got me killed, we'd have a conversation too (probably not as nice though).
I'm not saying PCs have to all be optimized/max theory-crafted, but my character's all have very good roleplaying reasons for wanting a party member to not be bad at their jobs, my characters want to live. Be sure that in real life if someone's behavior almost got me killed, we'd have a conversation too (probably not as nice though).
Exactly. I'd assume that a character swinging around a weapon they're not proficient in is going to be looking rather clumsy/off-balance compared to someone with proficiency. If one of my battle companions was clumsily flailing about with a sword in a way that made him as much of a danger to himself as to the enemy, I'd certainly try to do something to fix the problem.
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Speaking as the writer: It's intended as reminder text (yes, the precedent is inconsistent). I don't know why it's missing from the orc skull ram.
Speaking as the writer: It's intended as reminder text (yes, the precedent is inconsistent). I don't know why it's missing from the orc skull ram.
Thanks for popping in (and for making more racial weapons!). At least we have original RAI. Too bad it doesn't fix the RAW or prove current RAI (as was proven with Titan Mauler and how it's writer's RAI doesn't match the current RAW/RAI). :P
Sorry for posting this in this thread but since its a bit relevant and there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people in here, thought maybe you guys could help me out with this:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2scox?Unchained-Rogue-Elven-Branched-Spear-path #1
(don't know how to link threads in a better way, sorry!)
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I'm not saying PCs have to all be optimized/max theory-crafted, but my character's all have very good roleplaying reasons for wanting a party member to not be bad at their jobs, my characters want to live. Be sure that in real life if someone's behavior almost got me killed, we'd have a conversation too (probably not as nice though).Exactly. I'd assume that a character swinging around a weapon they're not proficient in is going to be looking rather clumsy/off-balance compared to someone with proficiency. If one of my battle companions was clumsily flailing about with a sword in a way that made him as much of a danger to himself as to the enemy, I'd certainly try to do something to fix the problem.
Actually, I'm thinking that for a Reach Orc Scarred Witch Doctor, it wouldn't be all that bad for the first couple of levels.
Level 1: Can't get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (because BAB is not yet >=+1), so -4 Non-Proficiency Penalty, but +4 Strength gives +2 on attack rolls (we will studiously ignore the Finesse feature of this weapon), and the weapon's +2 on Attacks of Opportunity cancels out the remaining penalty, and we don't do normal attacks unless totally out of other things to do as a Witch, so we're even with a 3/4 BAB Reach character (such as the gold standard Reach Cleric) who doesn't have this weapon, or just -1 compared to them if they have +2 Strength. We also massively pumped Constitution for spellcasting and Hex DC, and they can't afford to, so despite having a smaller Hit Die, we're less squishy.
Level 2: No feat available, and both our character and the 3/4 BAB Reach character who doesn't have this weapon now have BAB +1 (we're assuming no multiclassing here, so Fractional BAB does not make a difference), so we're still even unless forced to do a normal attack, or just -1 compared to them if they have +2 Strength.
Level 3: Get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Branched Spear) -- "I've finally got the hang of this thing!", and the penalty is gone, so now we pull ahead of the 3/4 BAB Reach character without this weapon (even though their BAB goes up and ours doesn't): +3 on Attacks of Opportunity and +1 on normal attacks if they don't have +2 Strength, or +2 on Attacks of Opportunity and dead even on normal attacks if they have +2 Strength.
Levels 4 - 6: Similar to Level 3.
Level 7: The 3/4 BAB Reach character without this weapon advances BAB and we don't -- compared to them, we have +2 on Attacks of Opportunity and are dead even on normal attacks if they don't have +2 Strength, or +1 on Attacks of Opportunity and -1 on normal attacks if they have +2 Strength. By this time (and probably before), we shouldn't need to make a normal attack except in exceptional circumstances, unless just helping to mop up.
Levels 8 - 10: Similar to Level 7. By now, we're also doing some serious havoc to enemies with Hexes (which overall are a lot more renewable than spells), and the Reach 3/4 BAB character isn't unless they went Hexcrafter Magus . . . and Magus doesn't synergize very well with Reach weapons unless they went with a Whip build; even so, we're going to have a LOT more Hexes than a Hexcrafter Magus -- and we have higher level spells, too.
Level 11: The 3/4 BAB Reach character without this weapon advances BAB and we don't -- compared to them, we have +1 on Attacks of Opportunity and -1 on normal attacks if they don't have +2 Strength, or are dead even on Attacks of Opportunity and -2 on normal attacks if they have +2 Strength. We also have Major Hex as well as Hexes, and they don't have either one, unless they went Hexcrafter Magus or ate half their feats going VMC Witch.
Levels 12 - 14: Similar to Level 11. PFS (if Scarred Witch Doctor ever becomes legal there) and Council of Thieves end around here. We have also probably pumped our Constitution +3 relative to what it was at the start (or at least +2 if we had to use 1 increase on something else that started out odd), and the 3/4 BAB Reach character will have either left it unchanged or pumped it by just +1 (if they started with an odd number), so we're definitely less squishy.
Level 15: The 3/4 BAB Reach character without this weapon advances BAB and we don't -- compared to them, we are dead even on Attacks of Opportunity and -2 on normal attacks if they don't have +2 Strength, or -1 on Attacks of Opportunity and -3 on normal attacks if they have +2 Strength.
Level 16 - 18: Similar to Level 15. Most APs end around here.
Edit: Of course, the above doesn't apply to Half-Elves, but the weapon is cool enough that I just got carried away.
Effects refer to things such as getting hit with elven bane weapons, not racial traits.
Not entirely correct, neither Racial Archetypes are effects.
@UnArcaneElection Is urban barbarian 1 any good here? see rollforinitiative blog on scarred witch doctor
Edit: nevermind, his assumption " I am pretty sure since Urban Barbarian allows you to use mental skills while raging that includes casting. " seems to be wrong: Controlled Rage
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Julix, right below the comment window, where you compose your message, is a little spoilered tag on "How to format your text".
When you post links the way you've been doing them, Paizo breaks them in half in an attempt to curtail spam.
If you could post links so that we could all just readily click them, it'd be much appreciated =)
Alright, thanks for the tip. It's rather anoying to have to do that manually. Any reason why the forum technology is so basic? no buttons to just do that for me in by selecting text, a click on the button and a popup that asks which link to add?
@UnArcaneElection Is urban barbarian 1 any good here? see rollforinitiative blog on scarred witch doctor
Edit: nevermind, his assumption " I am pretty sure since Urban Barbarian allows you to use mental skills while raging that includes casting. " seems to be wrong: Controlled Rage
{. . .}
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. {. . .}
We know that spellcasting at least requires concentration -- otherwise, what are Concentration Checks for? So it's a no-go with normal Rage.
{. . .}
When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage. {. . .}
Controlled Rage specifically lets the Urban Barbarian off the hook for Intelligence- Dexterity-, and Charisma- based skills. It doesn't let the Urban Barbarian off the hook for anything else that requires patience or concentration, including spellcasting.
The only way to make Barbarian-based Ragecasting work for a Scarred Witch Doctor would be a steep feat tax and a dip of **2** levels of Barbarian (not necessarily Urban), to get Mad Magic, but on the Barbarian track, you need 2 Rage Powers to support it: Perfect Clarity and its prerequisite Moment of Clarity (which doesn't really get good until you have Perfect Clarity anyway).
However, looking at the alternate prerequisites for Mad Magic, the Bloodrage class feature will suffice by itself, and a single level of Bloodrager gets you that. Bloodrager also gets you full martial weapon proficiency, if you want to go from Reach Orc Scarred Witch Doctor into Eldritch Knight without needing to do something wasteful like VMC Oracle of Battle/Metal with Skill at Arms.
That actually sounds pretty cool... So am I getting this right: 1 Bloodrager/5 Witch/10 [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/eldritch-knight]Eldritch Knight[=url]/4 Witch?
And EK adds higher BAB, 3 combat feats, 10 "fighter levels" for the purpose of qualifying for fighte feats and the ability to swift-cast with a critical hit which is nice (except EBS only crits on a 20) at the cost of some Patron spells, 5 Hexes, as well as the Grand and Major Hex.
Worth it?