I'm curious for input on this idea...
I was toying around with a concept for a character I would enjoy playing, basically a bodyguard-for-hire whose main technique is to be disguised as a manservant or personal aide. (This character was definitely inspired by my vague memories of Butler from the Artemis Fowl series I read as a kid.) He's inconspicuous, quiet, sticks close to his employer, and he can grab and throttle you into submission with his bare hands if you put a toe out of line.
The obvious class for this seemed like Brawler, with the Strangler archetype...but then I saw that that archetype lost improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat, which would really slow down the feat progression of the character--important since I was hoping to synergize his grappling/choking with Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard.
Any thoughts on going vanilla brawler vs. strangler? Any other suggestions (I'm looking at Kraken Style or maybe Grabbing Style as alternatives)? Preferably PFS-legal...
Thanks in advance!
If you really want to specialize in Grappler, most people find the Tetori's Inescapable Grasp ability to be essential. But you can get an extremely powerful Grappler with the right combination of Feats and Abilities even without committing to Tetori.
Greater Grapple lets you Grapple as a Move Action, making 2 Grapple checks in a round.
Take 2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent, and you get the Expert Captor Ability. It lets you Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent, and you don't take the -10 to do it.
The class where your CMB Grapple rises fastest is Alchemist. At level 1, your Strength Mutagen will raise your St by +4 and therefore your Grapple mod by +2, which by the way will stack with such things as a Belt of Strength, a Bull Strength Spell, or a Boiling Blood Spell. With 2 levels in Alchemist, you can grow a Tentacle which gives you the Grab Ability for another +4. With 2 more levels, you can grow a Tumor Familiar: a Crab Familiar gives you a +2 on Grapple Checks.
Take the Feat Potion Glutton. It lets you drink any potable as a Swift Action. Alchemal Extracts are potables. Alchemists can use magic Wands as if they were spellcasters. Use a Wand of True Strike to buff yourself before you engage, then run up to your opponent. Then Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, pop an Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action, again at a +20.
Other ways of increasing your Grapple Mod include
Armbands of the Brawler
The Brawler and Adhesive armor enchantments
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver
Ioun Stones
You will be humiliating and dominating your opponents in no time.
my barbarian is a super grapple machine.
rage cycle with 1 oracle dip.
str surge boost CMB (with rage) way above lore wardens.
animal fury, raging grappler all build a super machine.
If you're aiming for PFS you probably won't have to worry too much about the DM frequently countering you with Freedom of Movement and incorporeal foes.
I've found that a 1 or 2 level dip into Monk can often help with feat prereqs. Scott Wilhelm has a good point about getting +4 from Grab, but if having a Tentacle doesn't bother you maybe you'd also consider being a Feral Gnasher, which is a goblin who grapples stuff by biting it. After 6th level you'd have your hands free while grappling. That allows you to make AoOs and might allow you to combine grappling with Bodyguard or even try Raging Grappler + Vicious Stomp. That doesn't seem much like a dignified butler though.
Regarding the crab familiar, if you took a couple levels of Eldritch Guardian you could have a mauler crab which grapples around as well as you do. That doesn't seem well suited to your theme, but I started imagining the butler carrying around a silver serving tray with a lid and saying, "Crab, sir?" before opening the lid and letting the crab magically grow to man size and grapple somebody.
Lore warden fighter. Best grappler in game.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Lore warden fighter. Best grappler in game. Really?
Most of my ideas about building an awesome grappler work with any class. I never thought much of Lore Warden. But I'm listening. Convince me: make me think Lore Wardens are the best grapplers in the game.
Technically they are not the best in the game but they are the most consistent across all the levels and are the pure martial that doesn't need a specific race to work. An aasimar battle oracle could be having +34 just off his single revelation and BAB at level 20 but the lore warden is never far behind even at that ridiculous level.
The lore warden has two things going for it for you. 1) 2 more skill points per level. That's really nice for someone who is partially based on stealth and the bodyguard will want perception of course so both essentials are handed to you. 2) maneuver mastery at level 3 on is just too good to pass up unless you start doing some battle oracle cheese as that's a +2 CMB bonus that scales for most of the rest of the game. Furthermore your a full BAB class so your passively increasing your CMB at one of the fastest possible rates (the fastest at low levels). Plus you get combat expertise and the normal combat feats of a fighter.
I'm trying to find a build a guy did based on grappling and construction attacks on these forums.... But he had at level 8 a lore warden who had a +28 to grapple attempts on a strength 18 character. If you can beat the +28 at that level then I withdraw my statement. Please note that was without spells, it was a permanent bonus. In the same thread he put up a monk with a +20 to grapple but had other advantages.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: I'm trying to find a build a guy did based on grappling and construction attacks on these forums.... But he had at level 8 a lore warden who had a +28 to grapple attempts on a strength 18 character. If you can beat the +28 at that level then I withdraw my statement. Please note that was without spells, it was a permanent bonus. In the same thread he put up a monk with a +20 to grapple but had other advantages.
This Build by Bruno Breakbone seems to hit around those same numbers. If you use a Dan Bong, that's an additional +2 to grapple (and once you hit level 5 it counts as a level 1 brawlers UAS damage, so that's neat). And if you really wanted to you could take Celestial Obedience (Falayna) for an additional +4. Both things not in his initial build.
Now, those are pretty much all things the Lore Warden can do too... but the Lore Warden doesn't get all the fun Strangler abilities Like not taking a DEX or AC penalty while grappled or the Sneak Attack dice to damage, or the Sleeper Hold ability. That's not even counting how insanely useful martial flexibility is and how it keeps grapple build relevant in non-grappling scenarios.
The Norv wrote: The obvious class for this seemed like Brawler, with the Strangler archetype...but then I saw that that archetype lost improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat, which would really slow down the feat progression of the character--important since I was hoping to synergize his grappling/choking with Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard. If you want to synergize grappling with Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard you need a way to make AoO while grappling, which is not normally allowed. Tetori (monk) grants that ability at level 4, while the Strangler doesn't get it until level 9. This might be a good reason to go for Tetori for at least 4-6 levels, after which you could potentially switch to a more versatile full BAB class).
I'm not sure if there is another way to gain that ability, aside from using grab to avoid gaining the grappled condition, which comes with the hefty -20 penalty on your grapple check.
Wow, lots of thoughts on this! Thanks for all the input--Tetori monk is definitely an interesting option I wasn't aware of before. I wasn't super liking the idea of semi-mystic ki powers on this character (one reason I was leaning toward Brawler), but that just might be worth it.
Got a lot to think about...thanks for all the input, feel free to keep it coming!
Grab lets you initiate a Grapple as a Free Action when you attack with that weapon that has the Grab Ability. But the description of Free Actions in the Core Rulebook says that you only get to make them during your turn, and Attacks of Opportunity happen outside your turn: a GM might not allow you to use Grab as part of an AoO. Also, if your goal in the Grapple is to Pin/Tie Up your opponent, the Free Action Grab ability can only be used to Initiate the Grapple, not to take any other Grapple Actions.
Hamatula Strike lets you make Grapple checks as part of the regular attack, but that has a limited utility, too: you can use it to Initiate or Damage. I like to use Grab and Hamatula Strike as a way of scoring Armor Spike damage with every hit via bonus Grapple checks. Hamatula Strike CAN be used as part of an Attack of Opportunity, but releasing a Grapple is still a Free Action, and a GM might not let you let someone go until it's your turn again.
If your goal is to Tie Up your opponent, using Grab or Hamatula Strike as part of your Attack of Opportunity might be useful, you are more likely to score your Tie Up if you already started the round with your opponent Grappled. Or if you are using Grabbing Style and use Hamatula Strike to Initiate Grapples with 2 opponents as your Attacks of Opportunity, say with the Snake Fang Feat, you might use your Standard and Move Actions to Tie Up both opponents the following round, if you also have Expert Captor, that is.
Renegadeshepherd wrote: Technically they are not the best in the game but they are the most consistent across all the levels and are the pure martial that doesn't need a specific race to work. An aasimar battle oracle could be having +34 just off his single revelation and BAB at level 20 but the lore warden is never far behind even at that ridiculous level.
The lore warden has two things going for it for you. 1) 2 more skill points per level. That's really nice for someone who is partially based on stealth and the bodyguard will want perception of course so both essentials are handed to you. 2) maneuver mastery at level 3 on is just too good to pass up unless you start doing some battle oracle cheese as that's a +2 CMB bonus that scales for most of the rest of the game. Furthermore your a full BAB class so your passively increasing your CMB at one of the fastest possible rates (the fastest at low levels). Plus you get combat expertise and the normal combat feats of a fighter.
I'm trying to find a build a guy did based on grappling and construction attacks on these forums.... But he had at level 8 a lore warden who had a +28 to grapple attempts on a strength 18 character. If you can beat the +28 at that level then I withdraw my statement. Please note that was without spells, it was a permanent bonus. In the same thread he put up a monk with a +20 to grapple but had other advantages.
For the first 3 levels of Lore Warden, that's +5 CMB, that is very good. Alchemists' progress faster at low levels if they take the Tentacle Discovery: +5 in the first 2 levels, +9 in the first 4 levels if their next Discovery is the King Crab Tumor Familiar. That doesn't count anything like the Strength Mutagen, which would add an additional +2 as a buff. But after that, Alchemist doesn't have a super lot more to offer a Grappler, so at least 3 levels of Lore Warden seems like an excellent addition.
2 levels in Cavalier, Order of the Penitent gives your grappler a DEVASTATING ability: Expert Captor. I just don't think any grappler is complete without that.
On the topic of bringing up your Grapple Mod, should we bring up Druids? At level 6, you can Wild Shape into Large Creatures, Huge if you have the appropriate Beast Shaman Archetype. Or you could do this with 4 levels in Druid and the Shaping Focus Feat. Wild Shape Large gives you a -1 to your Attack Roll, but a +2 CMB and +4 Strength for a net of +3. Wild Shape Huge gives you an additional +2. If you turn into a creature with the Grab Ability, you get that, too, if you don't have it some other way already, for an extra +4. If your goal is to Tie Up your opponents, though, your GM might not let you use rope depending on the form you take. Gorilla? Octopus? sure. Dire Tiger? not so much. Elephant? Megaraptor? maybe?
You can definitely use Grab during an AoO. There's even a FAQ which says so. If you can gain reach with the same attack(s) you have Grab on this becomes a very powerful ability.
Some levels as an Eldritch Guardian archetype Fighter could give you a Medium sized crab familiar who has all the same BAB and grappling feats as your PC. I think it has Grab too.
The Tetori's ability to bypass Freedom of Movement also seems extremely appealing.
lore warden have also the weapon training (unarmed), enough feats for weapon focus and greater, and the best part is the fighter's favorite class bonus - upping the CMD so no one can escape.
but barbarian with str surge and rage cycle are the best EVER.
666bender wrote: lore warden have also the weapon training (unarmed), enough feats for weapon focus and greater, and the best part is the fighter's favorite class bonus - upping the CMD so no one can escape.
but barbarian with str surge and rage cycle are the best EVER.
But only for limited rounds, even if a lot of them
Renegadeshepherd wrote: 666bender wrote: lore warden have also the weapon training (unarmed), enough feats for weapon focus and greater, and the best part is the fighter's favorite class bonus - upping the CMD so no one can escape.
but barbarian with str surge and rage cycle are the best EVER.
But only for limited rounds, even if a lot of them casters end without any spells by the time rage rounds end....
my barbarian level 12, fighter 1, oracle 1 can reach CMD of 50 - so no one gets out.
the CMB is +40 or so, i grappled golems - dragons and what's not.
animal fury and anaconda's belt keep my damage decent.
greater and rapid grapple make round 1 = thte end of the for - as he is pinned and cant ever get out .
spell sunder keep the pesky protection like freedom of movement out the door.
and if i CANT grapple - i just punch the foe to death.
if i got a move and attack to close in - i use savage dirty trick to blind you. it's a fun play - not the best damage possible - but fun.
Devilkiller wrote: You can definitely use Grab during an AoO. There's even a FAQ which says so. Would you happen to recall where you found that FAQ and link to it, please? That would be very helpful for my builds.
@666bender - That's a really high CMD! Where does it all come from?
@Scott Wilhelm - It is in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook right here
The Chokehold feat can give you the strangling aspect to any of the builds mentioned so far.
Devilkiller wrote: @666bender - That's a really high CMD! Where does it all come from?
@Scott Wilhelm - It is in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook right here
Thank you.
So, how about releasing a Grapple? Say I have Feral Combat Training on my Alchemal Tentacle and the Snake Fang feats. I make my Unarmed Attack of Opportunity with my Tentacle, Grapple my opponent as a Free Action, then release him as a Free Action?
While there's a special dispensation for establishing a grapple with Grab during an AoO I suspect that wouldn't allow you to use a free action to release a grapple when it isn't your turn.
Whether or not you can use a free action to repeatedly Grab, release, and Grab a foe during a full attack is something I hope to see detailed in the upcoming FAQ. I'm not sure if it really makes much difference except for the chance to get Constrict damage multiple times (without Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler etc). This is just one of many questions regarding Grab and full attacks though.
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