Questioning the Value of Unlimited Uses

[bookrat]

Why are unlimited uses considered so valuable in terms of class power?

I've been seeing this recently, where someone claims a class or ability is overpowered because there's no limit to the number of times you could do it in one day.

Kineticist has unlimited uses of healing (ergo it is OP), Path of War characters have unlimited use of their maneuvers (therefore they're OP), fighters have unlimited use of swinging their swords (therefore they're balanced with casters), etc...

Why is an unlimited use valued so highly?

If you disagree as to the high value of these abilities, why should they not be valued so highly and what would be the real value?

[mjb235]

I'd wager because it takes narrative power away from DMs. Say you want your players to. Be stuck underground afraid,unable to rest, and slowly running out of healing items. "Whoops, loljk I'm a kineticist everyone is back to full!" (I suppose, I don't actually know how it works so sorry if I offended any kineticists)

That said I tend to to the opposite way. When I see an ability that says "X times per day" (and it's usually like 1 or 2) I'll think "Well... that's going to be painfully situational."

[Cyrad]

At-will abilities are valuable due to how the game works.

Because if you strip the game down to the underlying mechanics, PF/D&D is a game of attrition as defined by Joris Dormans and Ernest Adams in their book Game Mechanics: Advanced Game Design. The game works by having a GM gradually wear down a party's resources until they reach the climax of the adventure or adventure segment. This design pattern creates tension, influences decision-making, and helps prevent encounters from getting stale since any encounter might differ in intensity depending on how long a party has gone without resting. In a game pattern like this, any resource that never runs out or replenishes quickly is very valuable.

I do agree that in many cases, some at-will abilities have been overvalued or undervalued. Balancing at-will versus limited-use is fairly difficult because even a slightly overpowered at-will ability can throw off the game. Because of this, Paizo and WotC has traditionally been conservative about the power level of such abilities or found ways to implement them as limited-use.

[Shiroi]

I feel the game should assume an unlimited use of an ability as the baseline, then make anything stronger than that become more rare. The problem as I see it is the sheer number of "limited use" abilities. I can do x 3/day, y 3/day, z 3/day... now my things with unlimited use are less powerful than what I can do 9 times a day. But in theory, because I can only do these things 3 times a day, an unlimited use ability is better than or equal to any *one* of my limited use items. The problem comes when I never actually have to rely on my unlimited use items due to the sheer number of limited use things I can do.

Now I have to make an unlimited use ability that's almost as strong as limited use items, or it might never be used at all. But it's too strong for unlimited use!

It's pretty messed up as a cycle. Basic power creep, really. I'd eliminate limited use per day as a thing entirely and give options that are too powerful a drawback. Okay, so you cast fireball at full strength. You're staggered for a round because you overdid it. You want an unlimited use fireball that doesn't stagger you? Its not full strength. You want it to be stronger? Back to staggered it is.

Now the limiting factor of strong abilities is not per day, but action economy and penalties applied for overdoing it. You cast a high level spell like manipulate weather, you get a negative level until the spell ends as it drains your life force to keep going.

You cast wish, you're making a huge change to the world itself... the GM decides the punishment and it may well be that you're reduced to ashes by the power and need a true resurrection spell, depending on the size of the wish. A simpler wish might only leave you with a -2 con.

[Cuup]

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

[Brain in a Jar]

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Magic Aura

If Detect Magic is messing up your investigation campaign its because you didn't plan very far.

[David knott 242]

Kineticist healing is limited by burn, not by uses per day of the ability itself. Some sort of daily resource is inevitably spent when that talent is used.

Actually, Create Water is the most abusable zero level spell that I am aware of. It is much easier to work around an infinite ability to detect magic than an infinite ability to create water.

[bookrat]

David knott 242 wrote:

Kineticist healing is limited by burn, not by uses per day of the ability itself. Some sort of daily resource is inevitably spent when that talent is used.

While true, the person who made the claim that it was overpowered was aware of that and still thought it was overpowered because there was no hard limit written into the ability like, for example, channel energy.

So I'm trying to gather others' thoughts on the subject.

[Trekkie90909]

Admittedly if you spam create water for 24 hours (the maximum duration of the water) as a 20th level caster you can generate 574 5-foot cubes of water; a small lake. But it happens so slowly (and disappears immediately after your last casting) that one has to wonder why you'd bother.

[Matthew Downie]

It depends on the type of ability.

Unlimited use healing means you never need to use spells or wands to heal yourself up after a battle. The value of this in a campaign depends a lot on the availability of cheap healing wands in your game world.

A magic ring can give you unlimited invisibility. That means you can conveniently scout around in the wilderness while invisible and be almost guaranteed to see all enemies before they can see you. It means you can be invisible at the start of every battle. If you could cast invisibility three times a day, by the time you knew you needed it, it would probably be too late. (Unless I was, for example, doing nothing that day except making one very quick raid on an enemy base.)

Would an unlimited use fireball be better than having one ten times a day? Somewhat - while exploring hostile terrain you could casually explode objects to flush out enemies. Although you might wind up destroying loot and killing random strangers.

An ability like Disarm is unlimited use, but realistically you're not going to use it all that many times in the average day.

Unlimited fighter sword-use is only special if the party has to keep on fighting when the casters have run out of spells. Which doesn't happen often, but when it does, you'll be very glad of it.

[Cuup]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Magic Aura

If Detect Magic is messing up your investigation campaign its because you didn't plan very far.

Glad that was what you took from it.

[Chess Pwn]

So I'm going to have two posts. One for here and one quoting what I said about this in another thread.

SKR said something about spells vs at will like a figheter. He effectively said that a wizard's power fluctuates between 150% at full spells available to 50% or lower at empty spells. While a fighter is at 100% all day. And so the balance is that the part of the day the wizard is under 100% the fighter is doing better and there's the balance.

Thing is about this is that as people we don't want someone with us whose not at 100%, and it's quite easy to setup a safe place to rest to regain spells. Thus the wizard runs form 150% to about 90% and then they rest, otherwise they can't do much.

[Chess Pwn]

For all day abilities to count for much they need to be like 80+% as useful as the limited stuff. Do you have the right spell on hand? Your at 100%. don't? You're at 70%. this is basically what it's like. Oh I don't have Web, but I have grease, and that'll be close enough. While the fighter is chilling at 50%, since his 50 is half the 100 but lots more than the 0 that mages with no spells are at. But mages are never "out of spells" since why go into the dungeon if you're already weak?

But if a martial was 80% all the time, sure other guys could Nova or Have the perfect answer, but your answer is quite good all the time. if you fight pixies or dragons or dungeon or animals or etc. they should have options that are like 80% good against ALL of them. That is a good level for all day abilities. Sure that wizard that has "slay wyrm" spell memorized is awesome against that dragon, but that'll do nothing against the Wyvern that was mistaken for a dragon.

Like, Your energy resist (that you need to chose the type of when you prepare it) spell gives 3 people 20 resist of one element? I can have 1 person under a "permanent" effect for 15 of all. You can be invisible for minutes? I can time my fast movements with their blinks. You can fly? I can jump over tall buildings in a single leap. You can charm person? I have a guy that this guy probably owes a favor to. I can hit you to cause you to need to make a caster level check of DC 10+1/3 level + my Stat of choice to not lose your spell for 1 round, And if you do something that would normally need a check you just add the 1/3 level + (stat or 1/2 stat) to the DC. I'm so good a blacksmith I get a my ranks of blacksmith as a bonus to my sunder attempts. Tie spellcasting to stats, you need X ranks of knowledge Y to cast spells of level X in school Z like K. Local is evocation. K religion is curative spells. Martials having a Blur like effect that is like SR for spells. "you have 5% chance of negating any spells you want that are targeting you or include you"

[Rhedyn]

What spell level is equivalent to what a 20th level fighter deals out? What level X or higher spell per round makes the fighter look silly?

If we are being generous we would say 6th, but I'm afraid the answer is more like 3rd. My sorcerer in a recent campaign never ran out of 8th level spells and she was only casting high level summons and time stop.

[Brain in a Jar]

Cuup wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Magic Aura

If Detect Magic is messing up your investigation campaign its because you didn't plan very far.

Glad that was what you took from it.

What else would i take from it?

Detect Magic, along with other 0-Level spells, just don't seem to be an issue in Pathfinder in my opinion.

Most of the issues with Detect Magic that I've seen (Example: Using it to defeat investigations that involve magic, finding invisible creatures, detecting magical traps, etc) are usually because it is being used improperly.

I mean i know my experience will be different than others, but i can't see anyone abusing a 0-level spell to cause much of a headache.

[Barathos]

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Have a "mystery-/investigation-themed adventure" that doesn't rely on magic? Perhaps they still detect illusion magic on the mayor but it turns out his clothes are just illusions because he's a nudist.

[Cuup]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Cuup wrote:

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Magic Aura

If Detect Magic is messing up your investigation campaign its because you didn't plan very far.

Glad that was what you took from it.

What else would i take from it?

Detect Magic, along with other 0-Level spells, just don't seem to be an issue in Pathfinder in my opinion.

Most of the issues with Detect Magic that I've seen (Example: Using it to defeat investigations that involve magic, finding invisible creatures, detecting magical traps, etc) are usually because it is being used improperly.

I mean i know my experience will be different than others, but i can't see anyone abusing a 0-level spell to cause much of a headache.

Most creatures that can turn invisible or magically diguise themselves (i.e. not class-level spell casters) don't come with Magic Aura. And with actual spell casters, if I just throw Magic Aura on everything I don't want detected, then what purpose does Detect Magic serve anymore? It's now a spammable dud. The fact that it IS spammable means I have to send my PC's through hoops that I set up in order to make the game play how I wanted, and the PC's will feel cheated for bothering to take Detect Magic in an investigation adventure, or Create Water in a survival adventure. I never said 0-level spells break the system as it is, but as soon as a DM tries to step outside the dungeon crawling format that Pathfinder's built around, things that used to get taken for granted like cantrips suddenly put a previously non-existent advantage in the PCs' laps.That's why I'm a fan of the ritual system in 5th ed. It keeps a lot of non-combat utility spells always available, but they're not usable on the fly unless you also prepared it, in which case, it will use up a valuable spell slot to cast it right away.

[Cuup]

OK, I'm not hating on Detect Magic in investigation adventures; it was a well-known example I used, well, as an example, to agree how easy it is for At-Will spells/powers to unbalance a situation.

[David knott 242]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Admittedly if you spam create water for 24 hours (the maximum duration of the water) as a 20th level caster you can generate 574 5-foot cubes of water; a small lake. But it happens so slowly (and disappears immediately after your last casting) that one has to wonder why you'd bother.

A small lake is far more than you need to take care of the drinking and bathing/cleaning needs of a fair sized group of people for as long as a caster who knows that spell is around -- and note that this spell is on the Adept spell list, so it is actually quite readily available.

[bookrat]

David knott 242 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Admittedly if you spam create water for 24 hours (the maximum duration of the water) as a 20th level caster you can generate 574 5-foot cubes of water; a small lake. But it happens so slowly (and disappears immediately after your last casting) that one has to wonder why you'd bother.

A small lake is far more than you need to take care of the drinking and bathing/cleaning needs of a fair sized group of people for as long as a caster who knows that spell is around -- and note that this spell is on the Adept spell list, so it is actually quite readily available.

So... Are we claiming that taking care of city-wide sanitation and water logistics issues are the reason why create water is OP as an at-will ability?

[Chess Pwn]

In my worlds towns have a "firefighter" squad which are (often low level) casters that know create water.

[David knott 242]

bookrat wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Admittedly if you spam create water for 24 hours (the maximum duration of the water) as a 20th level caster you can generate 574 5-foot cubes of water; a small lake. But it happens so slowly (and disappears immediately after your last casting) that one has to wonder why you'd bother.

A small lake is far more than you need to take care of the drinking and bathing/cleaning needs of a fair sized group of people for as long as a caster who knows that spell is around -- and note that this spell is on the Adept spell list, so it is actually quite readily available.

So... Are we claiming that taking care of city-wide sanitation and water logistics issues are the reason why create water is OP as an at-will ability?

Well -- it does kill most plots that depend on a drought or other lack of water if there are enough 1st level divine spellcasters around to deal with the worst issues.

[Trekkie90909]

If you have a custom campaign setting with those issues then you have a custom available spell list.

[David knott 242]

But I think Paizo has set up adventures with water issues themselves.

[Trekkie90909]

Hope they weren't expecting to make money off them. It's not an issue that exists in Golarion.

[bookrat]

Chess Pwn wrote:

So I'm going to have two posts. One for here and one quoting what I said about this in another thread.

SKR said something about spells vs at will like a figheter. He effectively said that a wizard's power fluctuates between 150% at full spells available to 50% or lower at empty spells. While a fighter is at 100% all day. And so the balance is that the part of the day the wizard is under 100% the fighter is doing better and there's the balance.

Thing is about this is that as people we don't want someone with us whose not at 100%, and it's quite easy to setup a safe place to rest to regain spells. Thus the wizard runs form 150% to about 90% and then they rest, otherwise they can't do much.

I know you didn't make this argument, but I'm jumping in:

When a martial can grapple even 2/3 of a group of enemies in a 20 ft radius for 6 rounds then I'll believe it's only 150%

Or if a martial can generate a 10' cube of damage and nausea while disarming anyone within.

Or if a martial could throw a shield or a weapon and deal damage to everyone within 20' of the target, without this being the martial's only shtick (such as whirlwind attack which is buried behind a 4 feat wall and requires a high intelligence for some reason).

Or if a martial could hit the ground hard enough to create a pit.

Or if a martial could boost his allies with an extra attack, faster movement, and increased defense - all as a single action.

If a fighter could do any of these or even something close, then I might believe that a casters power is *only* 150% above a martial's class when they're at full power.

[Trekkie90909]

*cough, guys can we not make this the infinith caster martial disparity thread?

[Scythia]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

*cough, guys can we not make this the infinith caster martial disparity thread?

Unfortunately, the valuation of limited use compared to unlimited use abilities is one of the major factors in that.

[bookrat]

Cyrad wrote:

At-will abilities are valuable due to how the game works.

Because if you strip the game down to the underlying mechanics, PF/D&D is a game of attrition as defined by Joris Dormans and Ernest Adams in their book Game Mechanics: Advanced Game Design. The game works by having a GM gradually wear down a party's resources until they reach the climax of the adventure or adventure segment. This design pattern creates tension, influences decision-making, and helps prevent encounters from getting stale since any encounter might differ in intensity depending on how long a party has gone without resting. In a game pattern like this, any resource that never runs out or replenishes quickly is very valuable.

I do agree that in many cases, some at-will abilities have been overvalued or undervalued. Balancing at-will versus limited-use is fairly difficult because even a slightly overpowered at-will ability can throw off the game. Because of this, Paizo and WotC has traditionally been conservative about the power level of such abilities or found ways to implement them as limited-use.

Which pathfinder modules or AP books are designed with this in mind?

Modules and APs are pretty much all I play, and I haven't seen this yet. There's almost always an opportunity to rest when I run out of spells. The only time I've really seen an adventure of attrition is with home-brewed campaigns.

[lemeres]

Cyrad wrote:

I do agree that in many cases, some at-will abilities have been overvalued or undervalued. Balancing at-will versus limited-use is fairly difficult because even a slightly overpowered at-will ability can throw off the game. Because of this, Paizo and WotC has traditionally been conservative about the power level of such abilities or found ways to implement them as limited-use.

An example would be ride the blast, which basically turns your blasts into at will, self only dimensional doors.

This seems like it could be a potential problem since it means you move 10-20 times faster than a horse, and you could do a cross country trip in a couple days (and I mean 'America' cross country, not of these tiny kingdom junk). You are ACTUALLY going 54-108 mph, and that is disregarding the difference between land speed and in game movement speed (since you are moving 10x faster than a horse, but your actual speed is only roughly twice than a horse)

Although, I suppose, that from a game design perspective, you would need to put your party in your pocket (pokepathfinders) if you didn't want to go solo. And even that sounds inconvenient since they have to get out when the fight starts. Still, it is a type of movement only rivaled by teleportation, and it allows you to do scouting along the way.

Basically, there are a few things that determine if at will abilities might unbalance things- utility abilities often are easily abused, and buffs as well. Look at the ki leech qinggong power- 0 ki cost makes it at will, basically, so there is little reason not to spam it every minute, constantly refreshing it so you are always ready to steal ki with a kill or crit.... other than the fact that it is technically an evil spell and it sounds like you are constantly jones-ing for your next hit...literally. You ki addict.

That is one of the things to look out for- if it is an at will ability with a duration of 1 minute or more, it is basically a constant ability. And that definitely has quite a weighty value (since constant abilities let you get the benefit of the ability without wasting action economy in the critical moments of the first couple rounds). I am sure we can all agree that things that affect action economy have a large value, no?

[Trekkie90909]

Scythia wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

*cough, guys can we not make this the infinith caster martial disparity thread?

Unfortunately, the valuation of limited use compared to unlimited use abilities is one of the major factors in that.

It's not the issue at hand; limited vs constant use includes things like deflect arrows vs an AC bonus, crane wing (single target AC bonus) vs dodge (blanket AC bonus), bonus feats vs martial flexibility, etc.

Why limit the discussion to the one thing we all agree we'll never agree on?

[Trekkie90909]

For what its worth I think the game has need for both unlimited use and limited use abilities; the unlimited use are basically keyed into scaling progressions, which unfortunately are the major underpinning of the 3.x system line. Limited use abilities are your cool, flavorful things that allow you to customize the way your character interacts with the game, which should be the general design focus for classes and abilities.

[HFTyrone]

I believe most of the time unlimited use abilities are vastly overvalued. In the average campaign you're going to be having about six combat encounters at maximum, and very rarely do they extend past ten rounds per encounter unless the party is built poorly. A good example of this is the "3 + X per day, for Y minutes" format for certain abilities, such as the Iron Weapon Oracle revelation. At 1st level this ability will last for 10 rounds of combat, or 1 minute, and will be usable 6-8 times a day provided your oracle player actually invested in Charisma. Under the impression that the campaign is following the standard combat format laid out above, at 1st level this ability will more than likely be in effect for as long as the Oracle is in combat. At 2nd level and beyond, this fact is unquestionable.

So then in this case there is mechanically zero difference between said revelation being unlimited use and having the daily limitation. Even if you are running a campaign where those numbers aren't sufficient, the rest of the party is probably going to be running low on their various abilities as well and will more than likely try to find a way to rest rather than risk running into an encounter with their strongest abilities exhausted. In these cases I usually tell my players that for all intents and purposes abilities like that can be considered unlimited use. I find that a lot of usage limitations on abilities are incredibly arbitrary, as they're either too generous to actually matter, or completely unnecessary compared to the abilities' relative power.

Also in regards to the poster who mentioned the Kineticist's healing ability: it's not actually unlimited use, as it inflicts a burn point on use which counts against their total burn limitation. And honestly I don't think someone would appreciate that kind of healing since at higher levels there's a nonzero chance the Kineticist might deal more damage non-lethally than they heal, and by then they've probably already found a way to get unlimited out-of-combat healing anyway.

[memorax]

Mind you with magic being as common as it is in Golarion. So casting detect magic in a room. Might have a entire room glowing. Not just the mayor. I'm sure the rich and even modestly wealthy are going to spend money on some kind of magic to alter their appearance. Go to a social event cast s illusion spell to make a person hair look longer or more shiny. That older dress can look just as new with a silent image or similar kind of spell cast on it.

[Nicos]

Brain in a Jar wrote:

Cuup wrote:

This is something I think 5th ed got right with the introduction of rituals. At Will Detect Magic trivializes 90% of mystery-/investigation-themed adventure:

"I cast Detect Magic and look through the crowd of party-goers."
"No one in the room is detecting as magical."
"OK, I got through every room in the manor and Detect Magic."
"You notice the Mayor detecting as magical. Roll Spellcraft."
"30."
"It's Illusion magic."
Five minutes later...
"And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for that dang at Will Detect Magic!"

Making Detect Magic a first level spell, but also castable as a ritual (10-minute cast that doesn't use any other resources) would make situations like these much harder to insta-solve, yet Detecting magic SHOULD still be something most spellcasters can always do. Giving it a 10-minute cast time stops it from being abused.

Magic Aura

If Detect Magic is messing up your investigation campaign its because you didn't plan very far.

I have a couple of problems with that. First you have to counter a spell with another spell. Second it make things more convoluted that they should be. Third the whole planning that kind of stuff is annoying, it doesn't show how smart the GM is, it doesn't show how much the Gm know the system, it is just a burden to have to do this kind of things. And that is just a cantrip. But well, I suppose my rant is more about magic in PF in general.

[Nicos]

bookrat wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Admittedly if you spam create water for 24 hours (the maximum duration of the water) as a 20th level caster you can generate 574 5-foot cubes of water; a small lake. But it happens so slowly (and disappears immediately after your last casting) that one has to wonder why you'd bother.

A small lake is far more than you need to take care of the drinking and bathing/cleaning needs of a fair sized group of people for as long as a caster who knows that spell is around -- and note that this spell is on the Adept spell list, so it is actually quite readily available.

So... Are we claiming that taking care of city-wide sanitation and water logistics issues are the reason why create water is OP as an at-will ability?

It depends about what you mean by Op.

[Melkiador]

Propose houserule: All cantrips/orisons deal 1 nonlethal damage to the caster. If the caster is immune to nonlethal damage, the damage is lethal. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced, but can be healed as normal nonlethal damage.

This should at least prevent the spamming of cantrips/orisons at low level.

[deinol]

Cuup wrote:

OK, I'm not hating on Detect Magic in investigation adventures; it was a well-known example I used, well, as an example, to agree how easy it is for At-Will spells/powers to unbalance a situation.

Except even with limited detect magic, the first thing I'd do in an investigation adventure is cast detect magic on important named NPCs.

Seriously, the only adventures that are ruined by at-will 0 level spells were boring to begin with.

Oh noes, if a 20th level caster spends all day with create water he can make a small lake. Or he can spend a turn casting wish and do far more with the rest of his day.

[Scythia]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Scythia wrote:

Trekkie90909 wrote:

*cough, guys can we not make this the infinith caster martial disparity thread?

Unfortunately, the valuation of limited use compared to unlimited use abilities is one of the major factors in that.

It's not the issue at hand; limited vs constant use includes things like deflect arrows vs an AC bonus, crane wing (single target AC bonus) vs dodge (blanket AC bonus), bonus feats vs martial flexibility, etc.

Why limit the discussion to the one thing we all agree we'll never agree on?

Spoiler:

The idea that Attacks and Maneuvers (both unlimited use) are as good as spells (which are limited use) primarily because spells are limited use is one of the major justifications cited for perpetuating the m/c power divide.

"The Fighter/Rogue can do what they do all day, but the Wizard can only do it a few times per day" is a common refrain.

[HFTyrone]

Melkiador wrote:

Propose houserule: All cantrips/orisons deal 1 nonlethal damage to the caster. If the caster is immune to nonlethal damage, the damage is lethal. This damage cannot be prevented or reduced, but can be healed as normal nonlethal damage.

This should at least prevent the spamming of cantrips/orisons at low level.

This is a horrible solution. It's "fixing" something that wasn't broken in the first place by making it a nuisance, a lesson I would hope people learned from the Kineticist.

Cantrips are fine as they are, and even a less-than-creative GM can work around them with minimal thought. The real problem isn't with the cantrips, it's with the entire spellbook; and it's an issue that can't be solved by introducing mechanical punishments for utilizing basic class features.

[Matthew Downie]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

It's not the issue at hand; limited vs constant use includes things like deflect arrows vs an AC bonus, crane wing (single target AC bonus) vs dodge (blanket AC bonus), bonus feats vs martial flexibility, etc.

I don't think 'constant use' is the issue. It's finite times per day against unlimited. You can use Deflect Arrows and Crane Wing a thousand times a day if your combats go on long enough.

So, anyone seen any Barbarians running out of rage lately?

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

When it comes yo.create water.... me and a few friends destroyed.our poor GMs dungeon with it... turns out he didnt expect me (oracle) out cleric amd our Loradin to flood the dungeon with create water...

[Melkiador]

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

When it comes yo.create water.... me and a few friends destroyed.our poor GMs dungeon with it... turns out he didnt expect me (oracle) out cleric amd our Loradin to flood the dungeon with create water...

Unless the dungeon was somehow described as water tight, the DM could have just said the water escaped through natural fissures in the floor and walls.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

When it comes yo.create water.... me and a few friends destroyed.our poor GMs dungeon with it... turns out he didnt expect me (oracle) out cleric amd our Loradin to flood the dungeon with create water...

Did he expect there ever to be heavy rainfall there?

[Philo Pharynx]

David knott 242 wrote:

Well -- it does kill most plots that depend on a drought or other lack of water if there are enough 1st level divine spellcasters around to deal with the worst issues.

So build your plots around other issues. Or you play a different game. That's like saying, "I want to play a high level adventure that deals with a cloud city, but it's ruined because the characters can fly."

lemeres wrote:

An example would be ride the blast, which basically turns your blasts into at will, self only dimensional doors.

This seems like it could be a potential problem since it means you move 10-20 times faster than a horse, and you could do a cross country trip in a couple days (and I mean 'America' cross country, not of these tiny kingdom junk). You are ACTUALLY going 54-108 mph, and that is disregarding the difference between land speed and in game movement speed (since you are moving 10x faster than a horse, but your actual speed is only roughly twice than a horse)

Although, I suppose, that from a game design perspective, you would need to put your party in your pocket (pokepathfinders) if you didn't want to go solo. And even that sounds inconvenient since they have to get out when the fight starts. Still, it is a type of movement only rivaled by teleportation, and it allows you to do scouting along the way.

It's very different from dimension door. Dimension door doesn't require line of sight or line of effect. But let's see - it comes up when a wizard could have already teleported for a level, and d-doored for several. It requires additional wild talents to be practical - 2 to 5. A couple of elements will be affected by terrain and it only carries one person. I don't see it being at-will as being overpowered.

[Matthew Downie]

Melkiador wrote:

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

When it comes yo.create water.... me and a few friends destroyed.our poor GMs dungeon with it... turns out he didnt expect me (oracle) out cleric amd our Loradin to flood the dungeon with create water...

Unless the dungeon was somehow described as water tight, the DM could have just said the water escaped through natural fissures in the floor and walls.

Or he could have run the numbers. A level 7 caster working an eight hour shift could fill something like a single 20 by 20 by 20 foot room, I think?

[Malwing]

I have to say that detect magic isn't gamebreaking but it is a little too useful as a cantrip. At that point it might as well be an automatic feature for any casting class. Also as a result it is the single most annoying spell for me. It got to the point that I actively use alchemy and skills to keep them on their toes as well as making some NPCs very upset that there's this guy constantly wiggling fingers at them and their stuff. then there are issues with how frequent magic items are like harassing the mayor's wife for having an illusion item that hides her acne thinking that its really the big bad. I swear, half the session is either 'I cast detect magic' or 'I use perception' so I just started codifying what is obviously magical and detectable so they aren't doing it ALL THE TIME.

[Pixie, the Leng Queen]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

When it comes yo.create water.... me and a few friends destroyed.our poor GMs dungeon with it... turns out he didnt expect me (oracle) out cleric amd our Loradin to flood the dungeon with create water...

Did he expect there ever to be heavy rainfall there?

Nope. It was in the middle of a desert underground. We flooded the dungeon with water, drowned most anything that cpuldnt breathe water and couldn't escapse and forced out anything could THEN killed them as they left. It was kinda humorous actually... like how I got around a room with waist high water an filled with blood ooze swarms (the little ooze swarm that suck blood). Just shaped reverse gravity (since it makes 5×5×5 squares ypu shape) into a column then covered the cieling so the water went to the cieling.

[MeanMutton]

It's a hold over from an early assumption that you wouldn't just stop adventuring once you ran out of your limited use abilities. Now that GMs and APs frequently allow undisturbed rest and the chance to return to exactly where you were when you stopped, there's no real value to unlimited abilities.

[Matthew Downie]

David knott 242 wrote:

Well -- it does kill most plots that depend on a drought or other lack of water if there are enough 1st level divine spellcasters around to deal with the worst issues.

A divine caster can't create enough water to irrigate more than a small area of cropland. It takes a couple of thousand gallons of water per day to grow enough food to feed one person. Unless about 10% of your population are divine casters, low level magic can't prevent a mundane drought from causing a famine. (And if the GM wants to create a drought demon, then the rules are whatever he makes of them.)

There's a plotline in an AP where you're expected to go to an island to collect fresh water. It's harder to justify that with a Cleric in the party, but not impossible. ("The ship's captain doesn't want to be completely reliant on you.")