The spikes for a shield don't require any points to utilize, because the spikes themselves aren't weapons. They actually improve (and alter) the shield, and aren't categorized separately.
(snip)These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
They do require points, otherwise it's not really spiked, is it?
But yeah, from the lengthy arguments I've seen here, they're counted as weapons. I've toyed with the idea of someone actually going spiked heavy shield as a main weapon and shortsword as an offhand weapon, although I don't think that'd work as a practical build. (And twohanded weapons are just more fun.)
I don't have the mindblade on hand to see, but you might have to worry depending on if they get martial weapons or not once you spike up your shields. (If they're just proficient with anything they make with this ability, never mind then of course.)
Re-read the OP's quote on the ability. It says you spend points based on if it is a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon, as listed on the table. There is no point cost difference between a regular shield and a spiked shield for the Mindblade ability, because the Spikes don't alter the handiness required to use them.
You would be correct in stating that they don't automatically get proficiency using the manifested weapons (based upon what was currently quoted), but saying he can't make a Spiked Shield because it has Shield Spikes is absolutely ridiculous.
I'm in the not a weapon camp. Improvised weapon is on the weapons list so my mind blade creates a horse and wagon as an improvised weapon and just holds onto the reigns.
I'm in the not a weapon camp. Improvised weapon is on the weapons list so my mind blade creates a horse and wagon as an improvised weapon and just holds onto the reigns.
Citation for the bolded part; I'm certain whatever list you're drawing that Improvised Weapons are on the Weapons Table is not from the PRD, which means it's not official, which means it's an incorrect answer.
Additionally, I highly doubt a character that could create a Horse and Wagon would be able to use it as a weapon (since it would take more than two hands to wield), meaning it would not be an eligible selection for the ability.
It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.
It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.
That's totally a double weapon. It's a no-go.
It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.
Joke or not, Improvised Weapons aren't actually weapons, though. It even says so in the entry:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
Just because they are used as a weapon doesn't actually make them weapons. Can I enhance them like any other weapon? What about special materials and determining the costs to make them out of such things? How would you determine what they can or cannot be made out of? How much Hardness, HP, etc. does it have? How do you calculate it?
This is no different than saying "Acid Arrow is a Weapon," or "Scorching Ray is a Weapon," when they're not. They're spells. Just because they function like weapons, does not make them weapons.
Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.
Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.
Oh dear. Now we're sure to have a thread asking if Mindblades can make Flame Blades. At least you didn't bring up Spiritual Weapons.
Oops.
It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.Joke or not, Improvised Weapons aren't actually weapons, though. It even says so in the entry:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.Just because they are used as a weapon doesn't actually make them weapons. Can I enhance them like any other weapon? What about special materials and determining the costs to make them out of such things? How would you determine what they can or cannot be made out of? How much Hardness, HP, etc. does it have? How do you calculate it?
This is no different than saying "Acid Arrow is a Weapon," or "Scorching Ray is a Weapon," when they're not. They're spells. Just because they function like weapons, does not make them weapons.
Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.
I couldn't have said it better myself,so we agree then? Just because you can bash someone with a shield that doesn't make it a weapon.
Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.Oh dear. Now we're sure to have a thread asking if Mindblades can make Flame Blades. At least you didn't bring up Spiritual Weapons.
Oops.
Now, I know you are joking, but I made this thread due to a legitimate concern.
We have shields, which:
Are in the weapon table
Can be enchanted like weapons
You can apply every single weapon feat on them
You can even craft them from special materials like weaponsImo, they ARE weapons.
To add to that, we have mindblade. Who's thing is versatility:
Want to strike from safety? Manifest reach weapon
Want to bring on the pain? Manifest a two handed
Want to hit an opponent plenty of times? Manifest two weapons
Want to play a bit more defensively? Manifesta sword and a shielda meteorhammer. Wait what?Thematically, it doesn't make sense not to be able to manifest a shield.
And as much fun I'm having reading about horses, wagons and flame blades, I would like to keep the thread a bit more on track. On the off chance we get an actual official answer.
On a more serious note, yes shield is on the weapons list, but so is unarmed strike, and claws and other natural weapons aren't so are we to assume unarmed strikes are the only natural weapon or do we agree the list isn't the end all be all? Add to that in 3.5 the weapon entry for shield says "see armor entry". In Pathfinder shield bash is described in the armor section. This implies to me that a shield is armor that you can hit people with and its inclusion in the weapon section is for convenience. And as Darksol so elegantly put it, just because something can be used as a weapon doesn't make it a weapon.
The irony of this statement gave me a huge chuckle and I thought I'd share.
Also, don't flop your "superior" rules interpretations around like a phallic representation of your higher understanding.
It's rude.
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Let me put it this way, the mindblade power can not manifest anything on the armor or shield table, irregardless of whatever properties the item in question may have.
It's always disappointing when someone tries to make a definitive sounding statement but makes a simple diction error, undermining their statement.
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Hmmmm... perhaps we should list all of the 'not weapons';
Battle Aspergillum - Religious device
Boomerang - Toy
Cestus - Apparel
Dart - Game piece
Dogslicer - Scrap metal
Fighting Fan - Breeze generator
Flail - Farming implement
Gauntlet - Armor
Hammer - Tool
Handaxe - Tool
Iron Brush - Art supplies
Javelin - Sporting equipment
Kama - Farming implement
Lasso - Herding tool
Mattock - Tool
Net - Fishing tool
Nunchaku - Farming implement
Pick - Mining tool
Quarterstaff - Walking stick
Scythe - Farming implement
Sickle - Farming implement
Sword Cane - Walking aid
Trident - Fishing tool
Whip - Animal goad
Wooden Stake - Camping equipment
What else?
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Club - Firewood
Unarmed Strike - Body part
Great Club - Bigger firewood
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Sword - mark of rank
Spear - flagpole
Mace - molestation deterrent
Gnome hooked hammer - gnomish combination tool (honestly I'm tempted to buy one for a miner just on that principle, to hell with using it as a weapon)
Two-bladed sword - Darth Maul cosplay prop
Spiked chain - chain
And from earlier, I'm now imagining a mindblade walking into an arena, with a crowd furious at the villain at the centre, who treacherously ambushed his ally. The mindblade concentrates ... and BAH GAWD IT'S A MANIFESTED STEEL CHAIR!
(How much would an adamantine folding chair cost anyway?)
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Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.Oh dear. Now we're sure to have a thread asking if Mindblades can make Flame Blades. At least you didn't bring up Spiritual Weapons.
Oops.
Now, I know you are joking, but I made this thread due to a legitimate concern.
We have shields, which:
Are in the weapon table
Can be enchanted like weapons
You can apply every single weapon feat on them
You can even craft them from special materials like weaponsImo, they ARE weapons.
To add to that, we have mindblade. Who's thing is versatility:
Want to strike from safety? Manifest reach weapon
Want to bring on the pain? Manifest a two handed
Want to hit an opponent plenty of times? Manifest two weapons
Want to play a bit more defensively? Manifesta sword and a shielda meteorhammer. Wait what?Thematically, it doesn't make sense not to be able to manifest a shield.
And as much fun I'm having reading about horses, wagons and flame blades, I would like to keep the thread a bit more on track. On the off chance we get an actual official answer.
I will respect your wishes to not derail the thread, but I honestly don't think you are going to get an answer more definitive than the one you already have. You should really ask yourself how you know that any item counts as a weapon in-game. For example, how do you know that a longsword is a weapon? The answer should be simple. Is it listed on one of the weapons tables?
And light shields, heavy shields, spiked light shields, and heavy spiked shields are all listed on the weapons tables.
That really should be the end of it, but they are also listed on the Fighter weapon groups.
Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield , iron brush, light shield madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield , tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart
Then there is this section of the PRD which describes how these shields are weapons when used to bash, and which explains that each of these shield types "can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Wooden or Steel : Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to spells and effects.
Shield Bash Attacks : You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right .
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Wooden or Steel : Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to some spells and effects.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon . For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right .
Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right .
And we also have this FAQ which tells us that "attacking with a shield is using a martial weapon" and therefore can suffer from non-proficiency penalties if you don't have the right martial weapon proficiencies. It also references several sections of text that I listed above.
Shield Bash: If I am proficient with wearing shields, can I make a shield bash without a nonproficiency penalty?
Armor proficiencies and weapon proficiencies are different things.
Table 6–4: Weapon (page 142) lists light shields, heavy shields, and spiked shields as martial weapons. The shield bash attacks entries (page 152) say that using a shield in this way is a "martial bludgeoning weapon."
Regardless of whether or not you are proficient in wearing a shield for defense, attacking with a shield is using a martial weapon and you take appropriate penalties if you are not proficient in martial weapons (for example, if you are a cleric, you take a –4 nonproficiency penalty when making shield bash attacks because you are not proficient in martial weapons).
posted September 2013
So they are listed as light or one-handed weapons on the weapon tables, are listed in a weapon group, can be made into magic weapons, and require martial weapon proficiencies to be used without nonproficency penalties. If they aren't weapons then neither are longswords.
I think the more pertinent question isn't if you can create a shield, (Which, I agree, you can) but can you create a shield and use it as a shield? Getting a shield bonus and all that.
And, as mentioned above, what stops you from making other 'weapons' and using those as tools?
Nothing.
Nothing is stopping you. So as long as you hold on to that battle ladder, you can use it as an actual ladder. So as long as you hold on to that little dagger, you can use it as a makeshift fork.
The mindblade magus can manifest a weapon that "counts as a magic weapon of whatever type the mindblade selected". This means if you select a shield, it counds a shield, with all the advantages and disadvantages that come with it.
I'm in the not a weapon camp. Improvised weapon is on the weapons list so my mind blade creates a horse and wagon as an improvised weapon and just holds onto the reigns.
To reverse the logic a little bit, I say this: Would you consider a pencil, by itself, to be a weapon? I say that it's not a weapon until you use it as such, and at that point it becomes an improvised weapon. A mindblade magus can only manifest weapons, so he should be able to manifest a pencil, right? But he has to be using it as a weapon for it to be an improvised weapon, and he can't manifest it while it's not a weapon. This is further supported by the entry on improvised weapons: "Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat."
---
Additionally, consider this. A weapon, in order to be enchanted, must first be masterwork quality. Have you ever seen a +1 masterwork signpost? Or a +1 masterwork horse-drawn carriage?
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there is tons of evidence supporting the idea that shields are weapons, and there is, in fact, no problem with defining it that way for the purposes of allowing a magus to use them as such.
EDIT: Apparently I spent so long reading through the thread that gisher ninja'd me by like 20 minutes. So ignore this post, and instead "what gisher said".
[/thread]
Thanks! :)
I couldn't have said it better myself,so we agree then? Just because you can bash someone with a shield that doesn't make it a weapon.It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.Joke or not, Improvised Weapons aren't actually weapons, though. It even says so in the entry:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.Just because they are used as a weapon doesn't actually make them weapons. Can I enhance them like any other weapon? What about special materials and determining the costs to make them out of such things? How would you determine what they can or cannot be made out of? How much Hardness, HP, etc. does it have? How do you calculate it?
This is no different than saying "Acid Arrow is a Weapon," or "Scorching Ray is a Weapon," when they're not. They're spells. Just because they function like weapons, does not make them weapons.
Hell, by your logic, the Mindblade can create a Flame Blade for 2 points, make touch attacks, and deal damage based on their caster level, and bypass any physical DR the enemies possess. Hell, spend 4 points and TWF with them if he has the point buy for it. That's even more broken than perhaps any other weapon he could make that's eligible, and it's quite obvious it's not intended to emulate spells that function hardly any different from weapons.
I actually don't agree with you. I'm using reductio ad absurdum to demonstrate how silly and ill-founded your argument is.
If I can manifest a chariot as a weapon, then I can manifest a Flame Blade, an Acid Arrow, a Black Blade of Disaster (if we're using 3.X rules), all as weapons for a measly 1-3 points, which return when I want them to; and the list goes on. Imagine when I can actually decide to use Fireballs or other similar spells as weapons.
If you're going to sit there and say that a spiked shield is bad and illogical, compared to them being able to use things like Enervation as a manifestation, then quite frankly you should ban every single bit of magic in your game.
We can now go back to discussing manifesting unarmed attacks and attacking opponents with a psychic slap to the face.
Hmm. I don't think you can manifest unarmed attacks, though. My reasoning here is that the text states that it counts as a magic weapon of the chosen type.
Can fists be enchanted as weapons?
Well, for me at least, being I the fighter weapon group s is something I've missed.
And it pretty much solidified the argument about being a "weapon".
We can now go back to discussing manifesting unarmed attacks and attacking opponent's with a psychic slap to the face.
Or psychic teeth to bite enemies on the leg, or psychic tentacles to slither and grab enemies, and watch them run around screaming "GET IT OFF, GET IT OFF!!"
Can fists be enchanted as weapons?
Not a fist, as it's not the weapon but you sure can enchant an unarmed attack/strike. [see Clockwork Arm]
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The various everyday implements which are also 'weapons' should make it clear that in one sense anything can be a weapon... e.g. a pencil is just a writing implement, until you jab it into someone's eye.
From there we might be tempted to say that, given the diversity of forms the ability can create amongst the 'commonly accepted' weapons, there is no reason to believe it can't create any object which can be held in one or two hands. For example, as it can clearly create a Monk's Spade and that spade could then be used to dig, there seems no logical reason it couldn't be shaped into an ordinary shovel. However, that reasoning fails because there are one/two-handed things which the ability cannot create. A longbow for instance. No more complicated than some of the items which CAN be created... could be held in the hand to fire physical ammunition (the ammunition leaves the hand, the weapon doesn't), but Mindblade's can't make these because they are specifically limited to "melee" weapons.
We could argue that even projectile weapons can be used as melee weapons... In Second Darkness there was a drow with a hand crossbow that had blades on it allowing it to be used as a dagger... is that a melee weapon that a Mindblade can create, and which can then be used to fire physical crossbow bolts? If so... couldn't you just bash someone with the wooden portion of a bow, making it a 'melee weapon'? There's a feat for using a loaded sling to club someone, is that a melee weapon? Axe Musket? Rifle with bayonet? Et cetera. However, given that the distinction was made in the description of the ability it seems clear that they meant to exclude projectile weapons... which would mean that there is some sort of metaphysical 'because, magic' definition of 'melee weaponness' in play.
At that point we are arguing about the limits of the 'because, magic' effect... some saying (with unassailable logic) that anything listed as a melee weapon is a melee weapon, and others arguing that only some melee weapons per the rules in general are melee weapons per this ability. Barring some clarification of the 'logic' behind the 'because, magic' limitations I think the 'melee weapons are melee weapons' camp has the better argument.
All that being said, I could easily see special Magus arcana like 'projectile weapon', 'thrown weapon', and 'mundane tool' for the Mindblade. Provides versatility, but all possible forms remain limited in power.
The real question is whether or not you get the shield bonus for a manifested shield or, since it's not a real shield, you're only limited to attacking with it.
The real question is whether or not you get the shield bonus for a manifested shield or, since it's not a real shield, you're only limited to attacking with it.
What difference does it make? Last I checked, the Mindblade's ability doesn't create an illusion of the weapon, or a weapon that can't work properly, like you seem to think is the case. It creates a full on, bonafide weapon out of their psychic energy, that appears and dissipates whenever they wish it.
It's like saying you can create a sap, and then saying "You can't use it to deal Lethal damage, because that's not what it's supposed to be used for." Even though the rules specifically allow me to do that.
A shield is a shield is a shield, and a shield is listed as a weapon, which is a weapon, which is a weapon.
A rose by any other name should smell just as sweet. (And be just as thorny.)
I'm inclined to agree, Darksol.
I actually don't agree with you. I'm using reductio ad absurdum to demonstrate how silly and ill-founded your argument is.
Yes I realize this, which is why I found it so funny that proved my point so well.
If you're going to sit there and say that a spiked shield is bad and illogical, compared to them being able to use things like Enervation as a manifestation, then quite frankly you should ban every single bit of magic in your game.
Okay as a counter argument I’ll offer, if you allow fighters to wear armor, all your players should stand on their heads. If you’re confused, then you’ll realize your argument and my counter argument make exactly the same amount of sense.
However to clarify, people keep saying you can enhance shields so they must be weapons, which is patently untrue. A +2 shield doesn’t give you +2 to shield bash, it gives you +2 to armor class, which goes a long way to suggesting what type of gear it is. Shield Spikes are weapons. Just like armor spikes are weapons. Does that mean a Mind Blade can use that ability to create platemail? Heck a gauntlet does lethal damage and is on the almighty weapon list, so full platemail Mind Blade it is. It is unfortunate that all those natural attackers aren’t using weapons at all because natural weapons didn’t make the sacred list, but ah well, win some, lose some. Let me ask a question here though (not that I expect an answer) If the developers did want a shield to be armor that you just hit people with, where would they put how much damage it does and its crit range?As far as shields are weapons is “common sense” try this experiment. Find 15 people who don’t play Pathfinder, and show them a picture of a sword, a shield, and a suit of armor and tell them to pick out all the weapons, and see how many pick out the shield. I would say calling a shield a weapon is very counter-intuitive.
I’m glad someone quoted the shield bash rules, where did you find those rules, under the weapon entry right? What? You didn’t? They were in the armor section? Hmm...
attacking with a shield is using a martial weapon
using a shield in this way is a "martial bludgeoning weapon."
attacking with a shield is using a martial weapon
All these rules are saying that when you attack with a shield you treat it as a martial weapon. Shields are armor that you can use to hit people. The only reason it’s on the weapon list at all is because you can hit people with it, and the armor list doesn’t have space for damage or crit range. Now I realize this post is not going to change anyone’s mind, and will probably be met with more jokes, I guess that’s easier than dealing with the logical arguments, or the awesome, “you’re wrong because I’m right” retorts (I love those especially when they’re later referred to as “irrefutable proof”), but I think it’s enough that you can’t just dismiss the other side out of hand… or not.
It was meant to be a joke but okay I'll bite. You can't deny that improvised weapon is a weapon, weapon is in the name. As far as wielding it, I said you wield reigns in two hands. Now my mind blade can create a horse and wagon.
It is 'reins', btw. "Reign" means 'to rule', as in "A ruling King reigns over his kingdom," "You reign over your Reins of Rain Reigning."
==Aelryinth
However to clarify, people keep saying you can enhance shields so they must be weapons, which is patently untrue. A +2 shield doesn’t give you +2 to shield bash, it gives you +2 to armor class, which goes a long way to suggesting what type of gear it is.
I just want to note that the rules explicitly allow you enhance a shield as a weapon, using weapon special abilities, even. Yes, by standard nomenclature a +2 shield grants +2 to AC, but there's nothing stopping you having a +2 shield, (+4 weapon, flaming), which provides a +2 to AC as a shield, but +4 to hit and damage with a shield bash, and the extra fire damage from flaming as well.
These are arguments are both amusing and incredibly sad. You have to be a first class door knob to prevent someone from manifesting a shield with this ability. That position requires too much mental gymnastics.
A weapon is a weapon. A shield is a weapon. A is A
I actually don't agree with you. I'm using reductio ad absurdum to demonstrate how silly and ill-founded your argument is.Yes I realize this, which is why I found it so funny that proved my point so well.
If you're going to sit there and say that a spiked shield is bad and illogical, compared to them being able to use things like Enervation as a manifestation, then quite frankly you should ban every single bit of magic in your game.Okay as a counter argument I’ll offer, if you allow fighters to wear armor, all your players should stand on their heads. If you’re confused, then you’ll realize your argument and my counter argument make exactly the same amount of sense.
However to clarify, people keep saying you can enhance shields so they must be weapons, which is patently untrue. A +2 shield doesn’t give you +2 to shield bash, it gives you +2 to armor class, which goes a long way to suggesting what type of gear it is. Shield Spikes are weapons. Just like armor spikes are weapons. Does that mean a Mind Blade can use that ability to create platemail? Heck a gauntlet does lethal damage and is on the almighty weapon list, so full platemail Mind Blade it is. It is unfortunate that all those natural attackers aren’t using weapons at all because natural weapons didn’t make the sacred list, but ah well, win some, lose some. Let me ask a question here though (not that I expect an answer) If the developers did want a shield to be armor that you just hit people with, where would they put how much damage it does and its crit range?
As far as shields are weapons is “common sense” try this experiment. Find 15 people who don’t play Pathfinder, and show them a picture of a sword, a shield, and a suit of armor and tell them to pick out all the weapons, and see how many pick out the shield. I would say calling a shield a weapon is very counter-intuitive.
I’m glad someone quoted the shield bash rules, where did you find those rules, under the weapon entry right?...
I disagree. Mine refers to power spells being used as weapons just because they have weapon-like qualities, which isn't grounds to consider them weapons. Yours makes no proper correlation whatsoever. Stating mine doesn't just means you don't quite understand my argument.
A shield enhanced as a piece of armor gives +2 AC. A shield enhanced as a weapon gives +2 to hit and damage. They are separate entities, and it's important to note those differences, because the cost is different, as well as the properties available.
Also, Shield Spikes aren't weapons. They're not defined in the weapons table. They aren't labeled in Fighter Weapon Groups. And you can't enhance them separately. Spiked Shields are, and can be enhanced as weapons, but Shield Spikes are not, and cannot. I can't detach Shield Spikes from a Shield and make attacks with them as if they were their own weapon. That would fall into Improvised Weapons territory, and if you can't make a Chariot as a weapon because it's A. Improvised, and B. well outside your ability to properly wield it, then you can't make Shield Spikes, by themselves, as a weapon, for the same exact reasons.
Armor Spikes are specifically called out as being a separate entity from the Armor they're attached to, as well as being enhanced separately from the Armor they're attached to. Shield Spikes don't make that distinction. They instead state that a Spiked Shield, or to be more accurate, a Shield with Spikes, and not "the Spikes on the Shield," as you claim them to do. The only reason Armor Spikes aren't allowed is because it falls under the factor that it's not a hand-held weapon.
You can't make Full Plate as a weapon. Hell, you probably can't even make Gauntlets, for the same reason you can't make Armor Spikes; because it's not held in the hands. Similarly, Cestii would not apply, either.
Just because Full Plate comes with Gauntlets doesn't mean you can manifest an entire suit of armor just from Gauntlets. They're separate entities, and don't even have to be together to work. This isn't some silly Iron Man 3 crap, so quit treating it like it is. Because it isn't.
Natural Weapons would not qualify for selection on the Mindblade ability, simply because a lot of them aren't hand-held. You might be able to get away with claws, but even that's iffy, since they aren't really much different anatomy-wise from Gauntlets, in that it's not something held.
If attacks with a Shield were an Improvised Weapon, then you would have a point of it being "counter-intuitive" to the purpose of it being used as a defensive item, since Improvised Weapons are exactly just that: Items that weren't designed to be used as weapons, but are used as weapons anyway. Except there are historical precedents that show uses of shield in combat as an offensive tool, and the rules don't state that Shields are Improvised Weapons when used to Bash.
Just because you have a pre-conceived notion of Shields not being weapons, probably from some silly old precedent, doesn't mean those same old silly precedents apply to the rules of the game, nor to the rules of how Shields operate in Pathfinder. There are numerous rules quotes and examples of how Shields behave and are treated as weapons, and these same quotes and examples apply to other weapons themselves; the only thing I've seen from the other side are arguments that have no basis, both in the rules or otherwise, and some weird age-old precedent from Pathfinder's predecessors, being something along the lines of
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However to clarify, people keep saying you can enhance shields so they must be weapons, which is patently untrue.
You are mistaken.
Armor section shield description;
"An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
I’m glad someone quoted the shield bash rules, where did you find those rules, under the weapon entry right?
Right.
Weapon section shield description;
"Shield, Heavy or Light: You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense. See page 152 for details."
Are you just not reading this stuff before you cite it?
All these rules are saying that when you attack with a shield you treat it as a martial weapon.
This is wrong. No treated as but "is a martial bludgeoning weapon".
All these rules are saying that when you attack with a shield you treat it as a martial weapon.This is wrong. No treated as but "is a martial bludgeoning weapon".
Yes it sounds wrong when you leave out the part I highlighted, you know that part that says you have to use it a certain way before it becomes a weapon. Which begs the question what is it when you're not using it in that way?
And still waiting on an answer to "if the developers wanted a shield to be armor you hit with, where would they put the damage and crit range?" You see this goes a long way to explaining why it's on the weapons list. It explains why unarmed strike is on the weapons list even though it's not a weapon.
The irony of this is that the reason the sheild has become more weapon-like and there are more weapon-like rules is because of people trying to use it as an exploit. A feat would say something to the effect that you can't have a weapon in the off-hand and since a shiled is a weapon, they'd try to shield bash with the off hand, so to close those exploitive loop holes the devs have made the shield and the shield bash follow more weapon rules. Now, this is where the irony sets in, people are trying to exploit its use as a weapon.
Maybe I am wrong, unlike some other, I can admit that, but I feel the reason this is even a debate stems from our (forum goers) pedantic rules lawayering that creates situations where the developers have to close loop holes. The developers come out with a feat where they don't want you able to make an off hand attack, but they misword it and use the word "weapon". Then we forums goers say "Ah but I can shield bash since a sheild isn't a weapon". To close that loophole (even though we all knew what they really meant) the make the shield follow weapon rules. I don't believe the shield was ever intended to be a weapon, as common sense tells us it isn't.
Yes it sounds wrong when you leave out the part I highlighted, you know that part that says you have to use it a certain way before it becomes a weapon.All these rules are saying that when you attack with a shield you treat it as a martial weapon.This is wrong. No treated as but "is a martial bludgeoning weapon".
There is no such qualification for Spiked Shields.
Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Are they weapons?
Last time I checked, armor doesn't have a damage die and a crit multiplier.
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Yes it sounds wrong when you leave out the part I highlighted, you know that part that says you have to use it a certain way before it becomes a weapon. Which begs the question what is it when you're not using it in that way?All these rules are saying that when you attack with a shield you treat it as a martial weapon.This is wrong. No treated as but "is a martial bludgeoning weapon".
It's not misleading in the least. You have to use most weapons in "a certain way before it becomes a weapon". Hold a dagger by the blade and try to stab someone. Hit someone with the haft of a polearm and it's a improvised weapon. How about throwing a sap?
As to exploit: It's on the weapon lists and fighters weapon groups. You can have weapon proficiency, weapon focus and weapon specialization in it. It would be some kind of loophole/exploit to NOT have it be a weapon. Note shield bash can do NONE of those things, as it's like a punch: it's the shield and unarmed strike that weapon.
pedantic rules:??? It's LITERALLY listed in every way as a weapon. Nothing ever says items can only be one thing [like melee, ranged, armor, ect]. If you seriously thing it's a loophole and pedantic reading then explain the existence of archetypes that revolved around using a shield to attack with: Shield Champion, Shielded Fighter.
And if they, as you assume, wanted to stop pedantic rules lawayering, then all that is needed is to have shields allow you to take the shield bash attack action. Have it ACTUALLY state it's treated as a weapon and not a weapon. Seems a fairly simple fix if what you think happened actually happened. However they made it a weapon, for better or worse.
To answer an earlier question ... as weapons which have special AC functions would likely work when done that way, I'd let you keep a shield's AC bonus when you do this.
Until you hit someone with it, when you forfeit that bonus.
Unless you have that feat that lets you keep the shield bonus when going bashy bash.
To answer an earlier question ... as weapons which have special AC functions would likely work when done that way, I'd let you keep a shield's AC bonus when you do this.
Until you hit someone with it, when you forfeit that bonus.
Unless you have that feat that lets you keep the shield bonus when going bashy bash.
That would be Improved Shield Bash.
You give me a shield and I'll give you your choice of anything on the table.
I bet you think a shield's a weapon by the time we're done.
It's not misleading in the least. You have to use most weapons in "a certain way before it becomes a weapon". Hold a dagger by the blade and try to stab someone. Hit someone with the haft of a polearm and it's a improvised weapon. How about throwing a sap?
Very misleading. Does a dagger say in the description that you have to use it a certain way before it's a weapon like shield does? No? Well there's your answer, a dagger is always a weapon regardless of how you use it. A shield isn't.
And it's not a matter of liking or disliking it. Do I think allowing it will teeter on the edge of breaking a game? No, it's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I just don't believe shields were ever intended to be a weapon in the same sense as a sword is. When an ability says you can create a weapon, a shield shouldn't apply, or if it does you can't block with it.
If you seriously thing it's a loophole and pedantic reading then explain the existence of archetypes that revolved around using a shield to attack with: Shield Champion, Shielded Fighter.
Are Bucklers weapons? They're not listed on the weapon chart, and yet there's an archetype devoted to using Bucklers as a weapon. A lot of you have said that improvised weapons aren't weapons either, and yet there is a feat line and whole archetypes dedicated to using them as weapons. Seems like a trend to me. Archetypes dedicated to using things that aren't weapons, as weapons. Take a look at all of the places that say "Weapon and shield" if a shield is a weapon, then why the need to clarify? Why does Dervish Dance feat say you can't have a weapon or a shield in the off hand? Couldn't they just say "Weapon" in the off hand and that would apply to both right? Since the shield is a weapon. It would also apply to unarmed strikes because unarmed strikes are weapons too since they're on the weapons list, there are whole classes and archetypes dedicated to using unarmed strike, feat lines for 'em and everything.
But I think I need to clarify. I don't think the current reading is all that pedantic. My point was in the past, I think we forum goers have been so pedantic that to close loopholes we have the current shield is a weapon problem. As evidence of that theory take a gander at the way Slashing Grace is now worded.
And still no answer to: if the developers wanted a shield to be armor you hit with, where would they put the damage and crit range?
Take a look at all of the places that say "Weapon and shield"
All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. The same argument applies to shields and weapons.
Now, aside from that, let me play along with you for a moment. Say we DO agree with you, and say that ANYTHING that can be used as a weapon can be manifested by the mindblade. Whether it be by your definition shields, improvised weapons, or a horse-drawn carriage.
Please take a moment to read this section of the relevant ability(emphasis mine):
At 1st level, a psychic weapon counts as a magic weapon of whatever type the mindblade selected, with a +1 enhancement bonus.
And now to this entry under "magic weapons":
All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons
And finally this entry under "masterwork":
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls. You can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill).
Basically, where I'm going with is that only actual weapons can be enchanted as weapons, and only enchanted weapons can be manifested by the mindblade. Can you have a +1 horse-drawn carriage? No. Can you have a +1 improvised weapon? No. Can you have a +1(as a weapon!) shield? yes.
The answer to all these questions is the same as the answer to whether you can manifest them as a mindblade.
Does this seem like a fair assessment to you?