Inquisitor is an awesome class. Lots of skill points, 3/4 BAB, Bane ability, Adding Wisdom to Init and monster knowledge checks.
Zen Archer is an awesome archetype. Gets given nearly all of the archery feats for free and get's to use Wisdom for AC and ranged attacks. (And for Acrobatics with the right trait.)
But Zen Archer peters out a bit after level 6. You can hang in there for 2 more levels to get that extra attack at -5 or level 10 for another free feat but I had another idea.
6 levels of Zen Archer followed by 5 levels of Inquisitor give me a ton of mileage out of a high Wisdom.
My only real issue is that I won't get Bane until 11th level. And since I've already done Eyes of the Ten I won't get much use out of the ability. I will be an archer with a very high initiative and great saves.
Especially since I would be a Dwarf with Steel Soul.
Counting just BAB
Inquisitor 11 assuming Rapid Shot and Manyshot would shoot
+6 2 arrows/+6/+1 So 3 good shots and 1 lesser shot.
Zen Archer 6/Inquisitor 5 using just Flurry of Blows would shoot
+7/+7/+2/+2 2 good shots 2 lesser shots.
So is the SAD build and free feats worth losing the 6 levels of Inquisitor?
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I'd suggest either pure ZA, pure inquisitor, or ZA 3 / Inquisitor x.
Zen Archer has a few slow levels after 6, but if you go qinggong you can add some great ki powers in there at 7, and trick shot at 11 is awesome.
Inquisitor wants to stay pure, because of bane access and spells.
However, if you go ZA three, you gain Free Weapon Focus plus two other feats, Wis to hit, and can only lose one caster level with magical knack.
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I'd go full inquisitor. While you aren't SAD, you are pretty DAD. Your also get judgment and spells (like divine favor) to boost your attacks. Remember that bane also increases the enhancement bonus of the weapon by 2 - this is +2 to hit and +2d6+2 to damage. You may only get critical damage once on manyshot, but you get bane twice. At 11th level you could get a +1 holy bow and stack holy and bane.
I'd suggest either pure ZA, pure inquisitor, or ZA 3 / Inquisitor x.
Zen Archer has a few slow levels after 6, but if you go qinggong you can add some great ki powers in there at 7, and trick shot at 11 is awesome.Inquisitor wants to stay pure, because of bane access and spells.
However, if you go ZA three, you gain Free Weapon Focus plus two other feats, Wis to hit, and can only lose one caster level with magical knack.
I like this idea a lot. It let's me play my SAD dwarf without loosing too much from the Inquisitor.
Now I need to choose an Inquisitor Archetype and a useful domain for an archer.
I'd suggest ZA1/InquisitorX(everything else).
ZA's WIS to Ranged seems popular, but how do you make that work for first 2 levels?
The only real ultimate advantage is if you dump DEX to at most 12, to focus point buy on WIS (and STR, CON).
So your STR is likelier higher than DEX at low levels, yet all your Feats (bonus and otherwise) are going to Ranged.
While Inquisitor uses WIS for spells, 3/4 casting and delayed progression from multiclassing means DCs aren't going to be top notch regardless...
Since your shtick is doing ranged combat, you don't need to be dropping Save or Suck spells anyways, so DC/Casting Stat doesn't matter.
So in my experience it's better to just ignore that feature, and build for DEX, even if going full ZA.
(in that case when you DO get Wis to Ranged, it ultimately functions as back up in case your DEX is drained etc)
Having a semi-high WIS does mean you can have higher Touch AC when not wearing armor, as an option.
(and you can save $ at 1st level by not spending there and relying on WIS to AC)
But ZA1 is very front loaded... Not getting 2nd/3rd tier flurry is regrettable, but you're still doing pretty good.
Technically it won't match Rapid+Multi, but you're doing very good, and maxing out Inquisitor
will give you more solid attack/damage boosts as well as general utilty, spells, etc.
I forgot that Manyshot requires Dex 17. I could still do ZA 3/ Inquisitor 8 but I would have to start with a Dex of at least 14 and buy a +4 Dex belt + a stat bump by level 8 and take Manyshot by level 9. Less SAD then I had hoped.
I'm running a sacred huntsmaster inquisitor6/mindchemist1/boltace1/master of many styles 2. He has great AC, un-touchable saves, and uses Wis to hit and dmg with his guided crossbow. I would recommend 10/10
I should have specified, This is for PFS. Guided isn't an option.
Hmmmm. Well it should still work pretty well. Just swapping out MOMS with sen Archer.
Just a 3 level dip though. Juuuust need wisdom to hit and you will be golden. The DMG from guided is just butter really.
Spells > Anything.
Eh. I never really thought the inquisitor spells that offer saves where realy good. They have great buffs though, so maybe just take those if you go this route. However, your only really losing out on 2 ups to your DC's so even then its not to bad.
Zen Archer has a lot of useful abilities after 6th. 9th level gives you the ability to make attack of opportunities with the bow. 10th level gives you three rolls on perfect shot. 11th level gives you the ability to ignore total cover or total concealment, and even have your arrows shoot around comers. 12th level gives you abundant step.
There are also a lot of little things that add up that you are forgetting. The pure Zen Archer has full BAB with his bow so gets 5 attacks at 11th level at +9/+9/+4/+4/-1, taking the inquisitor levels drop you to three attacks at +7/+7+/2. So you have lost 2 attacks and +2 to hit on each. You also lose 1 bonus feat, but get a teamwork feat instead. You lost 2 points of Ki and 5 uses of Perfect strike. The Zen Archer can also make attacks of opportunity with his bow which can give you at least another attack per round maybe even two. The Zen archer also has the ability to fire shoot someone from the rear window of a building while he is in the front of the building. The Zen archer also has an extra 10 feet of movement. You lose one point of AC. You have also lost 5 point of favored class bonus so figure you are down 5 HP.
The inquisitor does give you some abilities but a lot of them are fairly weak or limited for an 11th level character. You will run out of bane very quickly and only get judgements twice a day. You gave up 6 caster level so you are way behind on spells and the duration of the buffs will be way down.
The extra BAB on flurry will mean you are getting the bonus from deadly aim sooner so actually doing more damage. The pure Zen Archer is a lot better with the bow.
Well that's kind of why I like ZA1/InqXX, the point is not comparing to ZA, but comparing to full Inq,
compared to whom you're only 1 level behind for spells, domain abilities, other class abilities.
ZA is very front loaded, so you end up saving alot of feats and being "on line" from level 1 @ 100%.
when you start getting into a heavier multiclass, it really starts missing out on alot either class offers full-class,
but I think a very small dip like that can work great (better dip on ZA end because it isn't X/day limited)
Zen Archer 1 does not really give all that much except for a free feat. It would be better to go straight inquisitor, or straight zen archer instead.
I found no problem playing it and thought it was fun.
I felt it didn't maybe have maximum upside offensively, but didn't think that was needed.
And it worked well with all Inquisitor skills, abilities, domain etc. I had a Love Domain PC.
Any way, thats my 2c.
The inquisitor is a great class, but I would not bother dipping. All it does is delay getting class abilities. The inquisitor has more level dependent abilities than any other class. You give up way too much by dipping.
Both monk and inquisitor are ¾ BAB classes. This means that you are a full point behind the straight monk or inquisitor. Since many feats have BAB requirements this may delay your ability to get the feat. Also any scaling feats based on BAB will also be delayed.
Inquisitors get their spells slower than clerics so they are already a level behind in that. A single level dip puts them a full spell level behind. When you are getting 2nd level spells the cleric is getting 3rd level spells. You also lose a caster level but this can be made up with a trait, but that still means you don’t have the trait for something else.
You also delay getting bane which is probably the single most valuable inquisitor class feature. Even when you get it you lose a round off the duration. The same is true for all your other class features.
What does the level of Zen Archer give? You get increased unarmed damage, a free bonus feat, and perfect strike. You do get the ability to add WIS to AC but only when not wearing armor. Since the bonus does not scale you are probably better off wearing armor. Magic armor can give you more than just AC. The shadow enchantment for example can give you a +5 to stealth and is fairly cheap. You can get the bonus with a cloak or other item but that usually uses a magic item slot.
You are also give up 2 skill points and a favored class bonus.
While I understand that having fun is the most important part of the game, I don’t think that pointless dipping is fun. Before dipping always ask yourself how this is going to make the character more fun to play. In this case I really don’t see what extra the Zen Archer brings to the character. What I do see that is it delays the cool abilities that make playing an inquisitor fun.
While 3 levels of ZA allows Wisdom to AC and attack which is huge I agree that 1 level doesn't do much. Pure Inquisitor has to wait until 9th level for Manyshot and since this is for PFS the character will be retired before getting Improved Precise Shot.
I don't want to go pure ZA because I already have a ZA 10/Fighter 3. I like archers but wanted to do something a little different.
Minor point but Inquisitor isn't just 1 level behind Cleric, They are partial casters like Bards and Summoners.
Well, 1 level in ZA is giving you 4 Feats for free (5 if you consider not needing PBS for Rapid Fire which Flurry is equivalent of)
and that Flurry is effective equivelent of +1 BAB with Rapid Shot, while leaving your Feats free.
And you get +2 to all Saves on top.
For me, it happened to match my character concept anyways (monk devotee of deity, Aasimar so Feats are tighter),
and I eventually "bought" Stunning Fist taking advantage of having 1 Monk level to get +1 extra usage/day,
combined with Weapon Finesse + Mantis Style to have a nice AoO/melee fall-back, so free UAS was not "wasted" for me.
Not even having Human Bonus Feat, it let me get ALL the basic tier of Archery Feats (or equivalent) from Level 1
(Rapid AKA Flurry w/ effective BAB+1 + Precise via Monk Feat, PBS via Normal Feat)
AND Perfect Strike is actually pretty nice, and makes up for not getting Multi-Shot at high levels.
If you are Human and have a Bonus Feat / are happy spending early Feats on Archery Feats,
then paying your dues to get Rapid Fire the normal way may be preferable to delaying Inquisitor by 1 level to get +2 Saves and UAS.
(and that allows more top-end offensive output with Rapid+Multishot, it just takes longer and more Feat investment)
Inquisitors do get early access spells, albeit spells with DC are not going to be their high point with that.
So given they are already losing that game to Clerics, spells/DCs being delayed 1 level is less significant to me.
Since the Zen Archer benefits synergize with Inquisitor combat abilities (like most martial multiclasses combos do) it works for me.
Rregardless, if you are looking at Inquisitor,
You can/should look at Domains (/Inquisitions, although I've always used Domains) for effects whose DC scales with level.
Your WIS probably won't be as high as a Caster-focused Cleric, but a 10+1/2*Level DC will still be impressive enough to be relevant.
(and certainly better than any of your Inquisitor spells, important even if a Domain ability replicates an Inquisitor spell)
The feats you get free as a first level monk are not that valuable. Improved unarmed strike is ok but not really that important. Perfect strike is a good feat for a monk especially a Zen Archer because you get 1 use per level. The inquisitor does not get this, he also only get to roll twice instead of 3 times.
Flurry is useful at low levels, but not at higher levels. All you really get is the extra attack from first level. It does not work with rapid shot or many shot, so if you want many shot, it is wasted. The whole idea behind an archer is to full attack as often and with as many attacks as you can. At 12th level the pure inquisitor with only rapid shot will have the same number of attacks at the same bonus as the character that dipped 1 level of Zen Archer. The Zen Archer can of course pick up rapid shot and many shot but the level of monk drops his BAB when not flurrying so he is at a -1 penalty vs the pure inquisitor. The loos of the BAB also mean you do less damage from deadly aim. So what you end up with is an inferior archer.
Sure, 1 level of ZA just grants 1 bonus attack. Just like Rapid Fire, no better, no worse: Why I equated the two,
and why I said the comparison was vs. full Inquisitor NOT vs. full Zen Archer as you seem to want to use as 2nd goalpost.
You are +1 BETTER in effective attack bonus while Flurrying*, although for Feat Pre-Preqs you are 1 behind.
* at least 3/4 of levels you are +1 better, 1/4 of the time you are equal
Per the official FAQ, Feats like Power Attack and Deadly Aim use EFFECTIVE BAB when Flurrying, benefitting ZA dip.
Obviously the ZA dip is a waste of time if you plan to buy Rapid and Manyshot normally: You don't take those Feats if you take the dip.
So as I spelled out, Manyshot is the ultimate difference, although Perfect (and 3/4 of +1 to-hit) ameliorates that.
(you get 1 use of Perfect per 4 non-monk levels, with 1 bonus usage from ZA dip)
The OP seemed not so excited about waiting until 9th level (pure Inq) for Manyshot,
and the ZA dip is flat-out superior in archery/feats before then, and not so horribly worse after that.
Between (3/4) +1 to-hit + Perfect + Judgement/Bane keeping damage high enough,
nobody could complain about my damage before level 9, and nobody suddenly started complaining after then.
For my character without Human Bonus Feat, and a desire to spend Feats on non-archery stuff (particularly UAS related ones), it worked.
There is no way for full Inquisitor to use archery in melee AFAIK, so UAS+Stunning Fist+MantisStyle is very nice to have.
(both for when a Stun in preferred, particularly on Surprise Rounds, +just for some variety vs. Full Attack Archer monotony)
No doubt it also works to go full Inquisitor and buy all Archery Feats normally, but you will be behind until 9th level, (if only by 3/4 of +1 att, and Perfect Shot)
and be cramped for Feats that you might want to spend on other stuff, for Inquisitors possibly including Extra Bane or Judgement Feats.
Inquisitor abilities generally work great with Archery, but it is stingy on Feats, which Archery needs alot of.
Full Disclosure: I'm also a fiend for killer Saving Throws :-)
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Obviously the ZA dip is a waste of time if you plan to buy Rapid and Manyshot normally: You don't take those Feats if you take the dip.
So as I spelled out, Manyshot is the ultimate difference, although Perfect (and 3/4 of +1 to-hit) ameliorates that.
(you get 1 use of Perfect per 4 non-monk levels, with 1 bonus usage from ZA dip)
I actually disagree with this. The sheer amount of bonus feats ZA gives can make the dip worthwhile even if you don't plan on using flurry. You can even use the bonus feat to pick up rapid shot, which is something that is normally a trap option for a ZA.
What are all these great feats the 1st level Zen Archer gets? Perfect strike is really weak if you only have a single level of Zen Archer. A Zen Archer 1/Inquisitor 11 has three uses. A 12th level inquisitor has three uses. If you really want to hit pick up true strike as an inquisitor spell.
Improved unarmed strike is also not that strong. Yes it does 1d6 damage but so do most weapons. Always having a weapon is good but how often will you use it?
So that leaves us with a single bonus feat. Since flurry does not stack with rapid shot and many shot you are left with two choices. The first is take precise shot so you do better at lower levels, but then you either give up on getting many shot or end up having to take the feats latter. Second you can use the bonus feat to pick up rapid shot, but then you really are not getting anything until 9th level. Either way you end up wasting resources.
Now let’s look at what you give up. Since this is for PFS you never get greater bane, and you lose 1 round of regular bane. You are also down one for the following judgments Destruction, Healing, Piercing and Resistance. You also lose one teamwork feat, and a 4th level spell. You also lose one BAB which will affect things like deadly aim and getting more attacks. You can use flurry to keep the BAB but then you can’t use rapid shot or many shot.
You are also delaying all your inquisitor abilities by a level. Now you need to be 6th level to get bane and Discern Lies, Cunning Initiative and detect alignment does not kick in till 3rd level, Second Judgement comes at 9th instead of 8th. Stalwart is now gained at 12th level. You are also down one caster level and delay getting your higher level spells by a full level. You also lose one level of favored class bonus. This might seem minor but if you are playing a human that is an extra 3rd level spell.
OK so here is a question. ZA 11 with maxed out Wisdom vs Inquisitor 11 with maxed out Dex: Which makes for the better archer? In PFS.
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OK so here is a question. ZA 11 with maxed out Wisdom vs Inquisitor 11 with maxed out Dex: Which makes for the better archer? In PFS.
Zen Archer. Improved Precise Shot alone brings it on top. However, with Bane, Spells, and Judgements, Inquisitor can top it for dpr for a few rounds per day, and inquisitor is much better for utility.
Of course the Zen Archer is going to be the better archer. They are essentially an archery focused martial class. Most of their class features are designed to make them better archers. They are highly specialized and a specialist will always be better at his specialty than a generalist. But take away his bow and the Zen Archer just took a major nerf. They can still do the unarmed attacks so they are not helpless, but they are a lot less powerful without the bow.
The inquisitor is just the opposite. Their major class abilities function equally well on any weapon regardless of if it is melee or ranged. They can even use it on improvised weapons. While the idea of an undead bane barstool may seem strange and even silly it works well when you have nothing else. Judgements are also weapon independent and when combined with bane a buff or two the inquisitor can adapt to almost any situation. If you were in a social setting like a royal court most weapons will probably not be permitted. Carrying a knife or dagger is probably going to be ok, but a long bow and quiver is just not going to fly.
The inquisitor also has a lot of things besides combat he gets. The Zen Archer on the other hand is pretty much straight up combat with a little skill and utility throw in for good measure. The Inquisitor is one of the best skill monkeys in the game and a full caster. He also gets a lot of abilities that can be used outside of combat.
Both characters are actually very good classes but they focus on different things. If you want to be a kick ass archer than the Zen Archer is probably better. If you want more versatility and noncombat abilities the inquisitor wins hands down.
I recently built an Inquistor Archer with the Green Faith MArshall Archetype for PFS. This allows you to pick up the falcon domain which gives you access to Aspect of the Falcon which is prolly better than Divine Favor in regards to DPR. You also get a nice little percision and perception boost and a flying animal companion. Pretty awesome trade for your Domain me thinks.
Also the Deadeye Bowman Trait handles the need for improved precise shot.
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I recently built an Inquistor Archer with the Green Faith MArshall Archetype for PFS. This allows you to pick up the falcon domain which gives you access to Aspect of the Falcon which is prolly better than Divine Favor in regards to DPR. You also get a nice little percision and perception boost and a flying animal companion. Pretty awesome trade for your Domain me thinks.
Eh, I don't think the improved crit range really makes up for Divine Favor + Fate's Favored. The +2-3 static damage is going to do more for your than the crit range.
Also the Deadeye Bowman Trait handles the need for improved precise shot.
If you are okay with being in one step of LG and worshiping Erastil, sure.
Well I have a ZA 10/Fighter 3 already but I wanted to play another archer and I wanted to play a Dwarf. But I agree that ZA is pretty one dimensional.
So I might play a full Inquisitor though I won't have access to Improved Precise shot.
Here is what I came up with.
Race: Human
Class: Inquisitor (Sanctified Slayer/Preacher) of Milani
I like the skill bonuses study target gives you. Milani grants me Good Hope as a 3rd level spell.
Str 14
Dex 17 (19)
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Chr 7
Domain: Liberation (Feather is good but I won't have the skill points or charisma bonus for Handle Animal)
Trait's: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Rapid Shot at 3rd, Deadly Aim at 5th, Improved Initiative at 7th, Manyshot at 9th, Clustered Shot at 11th.
Skills will be spread out at first but will focus on Perception and probably Sense Motive. I can't support maxing all of my knowledge skills so I'll pick 1 or 2 to max. Study Target gives a small bonus to the identify check as well.
For identifying monsters you could always pick up improved monster lore.
Not sure you really want good hope as it doesn't stack with Heroism and that's prolly the best 3rd level inquisitor spell and has a way better duration.
Also I agree that Human is prolly the way to go for an Archer inquisitor you really need the feats.
Bane Baldric item would help you get Bane earlier, and more often.
For inquisitor archetypes, I really like the Preacher. Not sure if there's one more suited to archery, though.
The Bane Baldric has been clarified that it doesn't grant early access to greater Bane. It just adds rounds of the ability.
I plan to take both Good Hope and Heroism. Sure they don't stack but I can have Heroism for some battles and cast Good Hope to help allies during boss battles.
I went with Int 8 Con 13 and the Deadeye Bowman trait.
I know it doesn't work for greater bane, but it should at least do something for regular bane. The intention is certainly not to do nothing for an inquisitor before level 5.
Best bet would be ask your GM, or the local VO for PFS.