I can't find an official, or even unofficial, ruling on this, are mindless creatures able to deliver coup de graces? I'm fairly certain they are able to perform any and all of the combat techniques.
I'm asking because a GM is letting my play an army necromancer, and I'm thinking of giving my bloody skeletons spell storing armor with Ghoul Touch stored in it. It would be nice for them to be able to coup de grace paralyzed enemies.
I get that the attack bonus against a paralyzed creature is atk mod+4 vs its flat-foot minus its shield bonus (if the bonus is from a wielded shield) and -5 dexterity due to having a dex of 0, but we are talking skeletons here who, even at 20 HD, will have at max a BAB of +15.
What is the general consensus around here?
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They do what they are commanded to do.
If commanded to attack, they roll to hit and roll damage.
If commanded to coup de grace helpless opponents, they do that too.
If commanded to do so.
They don't impose limits on the 'programming' allowed for undead (unlike animals, which HAVE an INT score, ironically, but have limited 'tricks), so you could theoretically 'program' a skeleton to do some very interesting and complex stuff...
Like teach it write.
With enough time, and enough 'programming' it could approximate intelligence.
:D
This is actually why I allow unintelligent undead in my games to gain sentience.
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:D
I just have to remember to yell, "now, rip out his throat! Good, good, a new minion, or maybe I should make this dead paladin into a skeletal champion...."
:DI just have to remember to yell, "now, rip out his throat! Good, good, a new minion, or maybe I should make this dead paladin into a skeletal champion...."
Actually, you only have to tell them something like this:
"If an opponent falls near you, and you can't reach another opponent to attack, finish off the one within your range by attacking him as brutally as you can."
They don't forget commands.
You literally program them, like robots. :D
Under the spell command undead:
When you control a mindless being, you can
communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go
there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on.I would rule that coup de grace is not a basic command.
That only applies to the command undead spell. The animate dead spell has no such limitation. It just says they obey spoken commands.
Definitely going to fall under DM fiat.
Personally I would rule that activating a magic item is too complex for a mindless undead.
Definitely going to fall under DM fiat.
Personally I would rule that activating a magic item is too complex for a mindless undead.
Agreed.
Like I said, I allow mindless undead to gain sentience in my games. It's fun to have a lich's valet of hundreds of years suddenly speak up and disagree with his boss.
Hilarity ensues. :D
Using items is one thing, but a Coup De Grace is just dealing a deathblow to something that can't fight back.
Killing living things is literally the only instinct undead have. Killing is hard-coded into their being. It's the reason mindless undead are evil by default, because they are a mass of negative energy (which is neutral but harmful to living things) animating a corpse and making it kill any living things it encounters. All undead know how to kill. It's the ONLY thing most of them know.
Nature vs Nurture...
How can a mindless thing have alignment?
It's late here, i'm getting philosophical...
I'd say that they can coup de grace paralyzed enemy. Balance-wise, this might not be the best move, but balance was defenestrated the moment "army necromancer" appeared on screen. These unintelligent undead are battle-savvy enough to attempt to evade enemy attacks (DEX bonus), skilled enough to use weapons, and smart enough to know who you're talking about when you want a particular enemy killed. It would not be an unreasonable step in logic to assume they will coup de grace an enemy that they can coup de grace, especially if it kills what they're trying to kill faster.
They don't do ANYTHING unless programmed to.
If you just cast the spell and walk away, they just stand where you summoned them until they get attacked.
I'm of the opinion they can do so (and have killed a player this way).
Skeletons (and other mindless undead) have the singular thought in their minds of "If it moves, kill it". "Kill it now" is a simple enough command for them IMO.
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They do what they are commanded to do.
If commanded to attack, they roll to hit and roll damage.
If commanded to coup de grace helpless opponents, they do that too.
If commanded to do so.
They don't impose limits on the 'programming' allowed for undead (unlike animals, which HAVE an INT score, ironically, but have limited 'tricks), so you could theoretically 'program' a skeleton to do some very interesting and complex stuff...
Like teach it write.
With enough time, and enough 'programming' it could approximate intelligence.
:D
Turing's undead?
Turing's undead?They do what they are commanded to do.
If commanded to attack, they roll to hit and roll damage.
If commanded to coup de grace helpless opponents, they do that too.
If commanded to do so.
They don't impose limits on the 'programming' allowed for undead (unlike animals, which HAVE an INT score, ironically, but have limited 'tricks), so you could theoretically 'program' a skeleton to do some very interesting and complex stuff...
Like teach it write.
With enough time, and enough 'programming' it could approximate intelligence.
:D
It can get pretty funny if you put enough effort into it.
I suppose the only question is: When they attempt to kill a downed enemy (something they would absolutely do), would they perform a coup de grace or just attack it normally? I would say by default they would just attack normally, butchering the fallen enemy with no precision or skill. But if their controller was nearby and said "Slit his throat.", in that case I would allow it.
Thematically, what is the difference between a mindless undead clawing at your soft weak spots to murder you.... and a Skeleton ripping your throat out while you're helpless?
Honestly, I feel Coup de grace exists only so you don't have to go through the ridiculousness of nickle and dimeing every hit point when your enemy is lying in front of you helpless. Stab them till they can't move... then one more once they stop moving.
I would rule that any singular attack against a helpless person that you didn't have to move to get to... (Full round action) could/would be a Coup de Grace.
It's just a mechanic to justify finishing off the helpless.
Not entirely phantom. In combat you may have the need to execute an enemy lest he receive healing and enter the fray again. In such a case, attacking vs coup de gracing is a difference. Coup de grace has a better chance of finishing them, but it's a full round action that provokes. A little different from taking a swing at the person.
In the end DM decision.
A Coup de Grace needs precisicion and actual knowledge that there are and where "vital spots" of an opponent are. Thats more intellectually engaging as simply attacking an opponent.
I'd rule that that is a too complex combat tactic for mindless undead.
I'm of the opinion they can do so (and have killed a player this way).
Hopefully merely a character?
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I'm of the opinion they can do so (and have killed a player this way).Hopefully merely a character?
Yeah, sure, you're free to think that if you want.
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Yeah, sure, you're free to think that if you want.I'm of the opinion they can do so (and have killed a player this way).Hopefully merely a character?
Spooky!
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Yeah, sure, you're free to think that if you want.I'm of the opinion they can do so (and have killed a player this way).Hopefully merely a character?
Well, then, could your undead perform a coup de grace or not? Actual empirical evidence trumps theorising, after all.
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I think the mindless undead can't do a Coup mainly because it requires them to know where to hit to effect that "you are now dead" action.
They don't *know* where your squishy bits are- they just flail away mindlessly until you stop wiggling. In fact, they'll keep flailing away long after you are done wiggling until told to stop.
A Coup isn't merely an expedient way of dealing with the nickel and dimeing of killing someone, its knowing where to hit to turn those nickels and dimes into a dollar and be done with it *quickly*. And IMO they just do not have that knowledge.
-S
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There will be no empirical evidence. Nowhere in the rules does it explicitly state every action a mindless creature can and cannot do. It will be up to interpretation.
Personally, I would only allow it of the undead was given very specific instructions by it's master. Other than that, they mindlessly flail.
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Define mindless undead?
Skeletons have "an evil cunning" and a decent WIS score. That doesn't sound exactly mindless. Sure, they have no brains and that makes them immune to charms (etc.), but to me, it seems that having WIS and an evil cunning should be more than enough to figure out how to kill their target effectively.
Also, skeletons retain weapon proficiencies and can use weapons. Extrapolating from that, it seems they should be able to do anything with their weapon that any other cunning proficient user should be able to do, with the possible exception of anything that requires an INT score (e.g. Combat Expertise).
Finally, there is nothing in the Coup de Grace rule that says you need certain prerequisites to be able to do it. It doesn't require having an INT or being proficient or any other prerequisite (except the bits about total concealment and about the victim having anatomy). Which means EVERYTHING can use this rule, mindless or not.
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Yeah I definitely wouldn't have a problem with a mindless creature performing a coup de grace. I think it's pretty on the fence. As a DM I would just have them butcher their target instead of an official coup de grace action. Gonna die anyways.
A more interesting point is why would any creature, mindless or not, do a coup de grace?
To wipe out unconscious survivors after the battle is over? At that point, who cares? The winners (skeletons in this case) live on and the losers roll new characters. The mechanics of coup de grace are irrelevant - somebody lost and their adventuring days are over.
To eliminate one downed foe while the battle yet rages? Maybe. At least for me, I roleplay just about everything such that they're far more worried about downing foes who are still up and dangerous than they are about wasting time keeping a downed foe down longer. Unless they've seen downed foes get back up, perhaps because the enemy has a healer - even then they're more likely to eliminate the healer as a priority target. In this vein, any creature who chooses a coup de grace against an enemy that is no longer a threat, while other enemies are still threats, needs to have a VERY good (and IME very rare) reason.
Other roleplay reasons, like killing one helpless captive as an example to make the rest more submissive? Let the roleplay decide, but it seems that only enemies who are capable of making such decisions would do this, which implies a rational/logical thought process (not saying it's "right", just saying they used logic, flawed or otherwise, to get there). Probably not a mindless kind of thing, even with evil cunning.
Because it's hungry and wants to eat? Fine, but that's not a coup de grace; it's just ongoing bite attacks. Would it use a coup de grace to kill the downed prey and then eat it? Probably not; most animals are fine with starting the feast while the prey is still alive. What if it's something like prefers dead food? Then maybe, but this is getting back into roleplay reasons.
Because the have been ordered to do it? Well, that's the easiest one since their decision has been made for them. Don't need a mind for that (probably just makes things easier for the boss when the minions don't have a mind - no talking back, no refusals, no "but, but, but...").
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One point in this is determining an unconscious foe from a dead foe. I know it can be hard for real human beings with full capacity. A mindless being doesn't have any ranks in the heal skill.
I'd argue that if you did this:
"If an opponent falls near you, and you can't reach another opponent to attack, finish off the one within your range by attacking him as brutally as you can."
You'd end up with part of your forces CdGing already-dead foes. If you command them specifically to only do this once, then if the CdG fails they will not try again.
Of course you can specifically order them to CdG specific foes.
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I think the mindless undead can't do a Coup mainly because it requires them to know where to hit to effect that "you are now dead" action.
They don't *know* where your squishy bits are- they just flail away mindlessly until you stop wiggling. In fact, they'll keep flailing away long after you are done wiggling until told to stop.
A Coup isn't merely an expedient way of dealing with the nickel and dimeing of killing someone, its knowing where to hit to turn those nickels and dimes into a dollar and be done with it *quickly*. And IMO they just do not have that knowledge.
-S
Except that's not RAW. It states you can't Coup De Grace anything that is immune to Crits... which as an 'auto-crit' makes sense. However, it doesn't say anything about precision damage or heal checks or knowledge anatomies. It's not even an actual combat maneuver... it's just 'Combat Modifiers,' in fact the whole section is listed under 'Helpless Defenders,' When an opponent is helpless you can either attack normal with bonuses... or make a full round action to kill him dead...
As for Skeletons??
I've never seen anyone play Skeletons as TRULY mindless. When someone says ATTACK... they go for the enemies. They don't start smashing tables or chewing on chairs and bookcases. They always have that 'Hate all life and want to destroy it...'
Doesn't say anything in Skeletons... but Zombies are pretty close.
Zombies are unthinking automatons, and can do
little more than follow orders. When left unattended,
zombies tend to mill about in search of living creatures
to slaughter and devour. Zombies attack until destroyed,
having no regard for their own safety.
How many Zombie movies have you seen where they go for the throat or the stomach and get the squishy bits out? Or a lion rip out a throat? They don't just chew on the leg till you bleed to death.
It's all a matter of opinion, but I really don't see the extra training/precision/whatever elevating Coup de grace above 'Stab him in the neck while he's not moving...'
How's the mindless undead supposed to know the difference between a helpless and motionless victim and an already dead victim?
Easy. It makes a heal check, just like everybody else.
Uh, in your game, when somebody goes down, the the GM makes them use an action on a heal check before they do a coup de grace, right? Or else the GM sometimes have them do a coup de grace on a totally dead corpse when they didn't check? And the PCs have the same challenge of telling when and when not to use a coup de grace, right?
Actually, in my games, my parties pretty don't bother using the coup de grace action during or after combat, for the most part. Once the combat is over, one character in particular always just goes around smashing skulls of the downed foes until said skulls are sufficiently pastey. He doesn't even bother with a heal check on the off chance he failed it.How's the mindless undead supposed to know the difference between a helpless and motionless victim and an already dead victim?Easy. It makes a heal check, just like everybody else.
Uh, in your game, when somebody goes down, the the GM makes them use an action on a heal check before they do a coup de grace, right? Or else the GM sometimes have them do a coup de grace on a totally dead corpse when they didn't check? And the PCs have the same challenge of telling when and when not to use a coup de grace, right?
Yep, that's a coup de grace, just like you said.
Wait, you said they don't bother with it.
Apparently, they actually do perform coup de grace attacks but you just don't make them roll for it. That works too; the battle's over, none of them are getting back up (barring a regenerating bad guy or some such) so why use rounds and rolls? It still is a coup de grace to do this, just simplified by taking the dice out of it.
My point was that ... I can't imagine a mindless undead ever even considering using a Heal check to determine if the subject is live or unconscious, as the simple act of considering anything requires a mind. To me, that requires a degree of tactical acumen that is beyond something that is defined as being mindless.
Yeah, that was my point too, although I tried to make it sarcastically.
A more interesting point is why would any creature, mindless or not, do a coup de grace?
What about temporarily helpless enemies - e.g. a mummy using CdG on a paralysed PC?
A more interesting point is why would any creature, mindless or not, do a coup de grace?What about temporarily helpless enemies - e.g. a mummy using CdG on a paralysed PC?
Mummies are not mindless. They have an intelligence score.
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A more interesting point is why would any creature, mindless or not, do a coup de grace?What about temporarily helpless enemies - e.g. a mummy using CdG on a paralysed PC?
Good question.
First, I think everything should AUTOMATICALLY know what it can do, how it works, and especially the best way to use it. Not intellectually or mechanically, but instinctively. Sure, something that was just born, or just polymorphed into a new form, or other weird edge cases don't fit this model, but 99.9% of encounters probably do. (I made up that statistic, I don't have data).
For example, an octopus knows it can grapple, a wolf knows it can trip, a scorpion knows it can sting, etc. And they all not only know this, but they have instincts plus experience that makes them flawlessly capable of using their innate abilities to maximize their own survival.
This does not turn every creature into a tactical genius. A scorpion won't automatically seek high ground or flanking, although a wolf might prefer trying to flank, if only because they like to go for tendons on the backs of legs. Any creature can still make poor tactical choices while still using their innate abilities perfectly.
Given that a mummy has a 15 WIS, it should be absolutely capable of "common sense" type decisions, and it knows that enemies are only paralyzed for a very brief time. It's smart enough to know danger and definitely clever enough to make reasonable decisions about which opponent "seems" scariest.
That said, if it sees an enemy paralyzed, and considers that enemy dangerous, and it has NO other enemies threatening in, then it would absolutely use a coup de grace. If it has multiple paralyzed enemies and no threatening enemies, it will coup de grace either the most threatening or the nearest, depending on who or what is near to hand, and keep on doing so until a real threat appears or it runs out of paralyzed targets.
But, if it has a paralyzed target AND some active threats, it has to make a decision. Eliminate those threats before I get hurt but risk the paralyzed victim recovering from his short paralysis, or eliminate that victim now before he gets un-paralyzed but risk taking extra damage from the existing threats.
That's a complex decision and I think the mummy's WIS makes him competent enough to make that call. Or more accurately, he's wise enough to understand the variables. But he's also a moron with a 6 INT so I might also have him make stupid choices, especially strategic choices (which this qualifies as).
In the end, as a GM I could easily justify the mummy making good or bad decisions based on his two very disparate mental scores, so my motivation would be:
1. what's good for the story?
2. what's good for the drama of this encounter?
3. is the mummy winning the battle? Maybe it's time for some stupidity.
4. are the PCs winning too easily due to random chance? Maybe it's time for the mummy to do something really wise.
6. are the PCs winning too easily but it's due to really good decisions by the players? Don't interfere with that; players deserve to enjoy their good decisions.
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My point was that ... I can't imagine a mindless undead ever even considering using a Heal check to determine if the subject is live or unconscious, as the simple act of considering anything requires a mind. To me, that requires a degree of tactical acumen that is beyond something that is defined as being mindless.Yeah, that was my point too, although I tried to make it sarcastically.Oh, sorry. My internet sarcasm detector must be due for routine maintenance.
(I should've figured it out since I often seem to be in agreement with your interpretations as far as GMing is concerned.)
Of course, only mummies can routinely make Heal checks because they're the only undead with a built-in Healer's Kit...
I ran this for years based on the controller, what he would prefer. None of my BBEGs would casually kill unless called for, though an Evil BBEG would be more likely.
A raving CE mastermind beat the 'party' several times, but never went for the kill. They eventually cornered him and he begged for mercy/got away. Not so the next time.
Nope.
Extremely well said DM_Blake. Bravo.
One point in this is determining an unconscious foe from a dead foe. I know it can be hard for real human beings with full capacity. A mindless being doesn't have any ranks in the heal skill.
I'd argue that if you did this:
"If an opponent falls near you, and you can't reach another opponent to attack, finish off the one within your range by attacking him as brutally as you can."You'd end up with part of your forces CdGing already-dead foes. If you command them specifically to only do this once, then if the CdG fails they will not try again.
Of course you can specifically order them to CdG specific foes.
Exactly, this is why I actually write out my commands that I have programmed them with.
It's fun.
If it's simple, it's easy to adjudicate. The more you tell them to do, the more room for failure.
I once had a horde with about 30 different commands programmed in, it got ludicrous sometimes. :D
I think at one point I put in something about living targets, so when we faced another necromancer, my stupid skeletons just stood there not attacking the other skeletons.
:D
the issue is commanding them to perform a coup de grace (game mechanic) without having the in-game commands use game terms.
Also, to anyone saying you need to command your undead: incorrect.
You can give them orders ahead of time (what I have been calling programming)-you don't need to take actions (free or otherwise) to tell them to do stuff in combat.