Large creature in a 10 foot deep Created Pit

[Jubal Breakbottle]

If I read RAW, a large creature needs a DC 25 Climb check to escape a 10 foot, right? But the creature can physically reach the top and brace against the sides to climb out. If a medium creature fell into a hole 5 foot deep, it seems to me that it would be easier to climb than DC 25.

Is there RAW to transition a climb check to an obstacle where the creature automatically climbs but takes more time?

thanks

[LazarX]

Remember that RAW makes asssumptions and when the assumptions aren't true, you have to adapt and improvise.

[DM_Blake]

At some point, the depth is significant. Use the 25 DC. Beyond that point, it's just difficult terrain and counts as 10' of movement instead of 5'. It's up to the GM to determine when that is.

A large crocodile might have difficulty with a 10' pit/wall (I hope so, modern zoos usually put them behind lower walls than 10'). A large ogre might be almost (but not quite) tall enough to see out of the pit - it's just a bit deeper than he is tall. So he cannot just step out of it, but it doesn't seem like DC 25 applies anymore (how hard is it for YOU to get over a 6' wall?). A huge fire giant might just hop out of a 10' pit, about as difficult as you hopping onto a kitchen table. Anything bigger than that probably wouldn't have fall into it int he first place.

[Korlos]

Since a large creature can brace against opposite walls, a -10 DC applies, so for the giant, it's a DC15 that costs 40 feet of movement. If they accept a -5 to their check, they can do it in 20 feet of movement. In 3.5, the giant would be able to make a DC15 climb check as a move action to scale a height less than 16 feet.

Also remember that in a create pit pit, any creature can brace against the corner for -5 to the DC.

[Knight Magenta]

Keep in mind, the -10 for a chimney and a -5 for a corner stack. So the giant needs to get only a 10 on his climb check. Pretty trivial for most large creatures.

[Gauss]

Knight Magenta is correct. While the starting DC is 25, it drops to 10 for a large creature.

[Kazaan]

Two things to note. 1) "Creatures who fall into the pit take falling damage as normal. The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round."

It isn't "climbing out of the pit" that has a DC of 25, but the walls themselves. If you have any benefits that would apply, you can use them. Which brings us to: "Climb DC 15: Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands." If you're able to dangle by your hands, then it's a DC 15 check to pull yourself up.

2) "You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect." The lip of the pit isn't a hard edge, but it's sloped sufficiently that a creature adjacent must make a reflex save to avoid slipping into the pit.

In conclusion, if it were an ordinary pit with an even lip, then yes, a large creature could just pull themselves up with a DC 15 check. But that's not what we're dealing with; we're dealing with a sloped lip that wouldn't provide enough of a handhold from which to dangle. If the pit has a corner (it doesn't say the pit is perfectly square, just that it occupies a 10x10' space), you can cut -5 off the DC. But just because the pit is 10' wide doesn't mean it counts as an "opposite brace" benefit because the creature only takes up 10 square feet of tactical space. A chimney is only about 2' on the inside on the inside, not 5'. Essentially, if you aren't squeezing into the space, you can't use it as an opposite wall brace for climbing.

[Gauss]

Kazaan, how do you figure that you have to be squeezing?

Lets use an example the average human male. According to Pathfinder the average human male is 5'9". That means that he can absolutely brace across a pit that is 5' wide.

Large creatures are often even taller than their space.

Since we don't have heights for all creatures the simplest solution is to assume that if you have a space of 5x5 you can brace in a space that is 5' across and similarly for a space that is 10x10 bracing across a 10' across space.

Yes, a large creature can, and should, be able to brace 10'. Is it perfectly realistic? No, but nothing in this game is.

As for it having a corner, it clearly has a corner, it is 10'x10' which is the definition of a square. Squares have corners.

[Kazaan]

Do you... understand what it means to "brace" against an opposite wall? It means that you're climbing up one wall and your back is braces against the opposite wall. A medium sized creature can brace in a chimney or similar space and that is about 2-2.5 feet deep; last I checked, that would qualify for "squeezing" rules. A large creature would be able to brace in a 5x5' pit, but a 10x10 foot would be too big; it would have to have its hands planted on one wall and its feet planted on the opposite wall and "walk" its way up.

As far as having corners, a large creature is also 10x10 feet; does that mean large creatures, by definition, have corners? The grid has corners; the pit doesn't necessarily have corners. It could be a circular pit 10' in diameter centered around a vertex and it would still take up 10 feet by 10 feet on the grid. Does that mean that said circular pit has corners? Not so much.

[Gauss]

Kazaan, please provide rules evidence for that being the only way to brace in Pathfinder (hint, there is none).

Placing your hands on one wall while your feet are on the other is also a form of bracing. Watch America Ninja Warrior or rock climbing sometime. Now, if you say that a 5' 9" person cannot brace against opposing walls using that technique I would really like to hear your logic there.

Regarding the pit dimensions, if it were a 10'diameter pit it would say that. It doesn't. Clearly, there are spells that have areas listed in diameters (or radius). This has a distance listed in a square and thus, it is a square. Perhaps they did that on purpose so people cannot try to say 'but the pit is a circle so I can jump a smaller distance by jumping along the edge!'.

Summary: Brace can also be done with hands and feet on opposing walls. If the pit were a circle that would be stated in it's dimensions as a radius or diameter.

Of course, you can house rule it any way you want, but the rules are pretty clear here.

[Kazaan]

Gauss wrote:

Kazaan, please provide rules evidence for that being the only way to brace in Pathfinder (hint, there is none).

Placing your hands on one wall while your feet are on the other is also a form of bracing. Watch America Ninja Warrior or rock climbing sometime. Now, if you say that a 5' 9" person cannot brace against opposing walls using that technique I would really like to hear your logic there.

I already did, but here it is again for your benefit:

PRD wrote:

Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls.

dictionary wrote:

Brace (v): to fix firmly; make steady; secure against pressure or impact:

A standard chimney, as stated earlier, is about 2 to 2.5 feet deep and maybe 3 to 3.5 feet wide. This serves as an exemplar for what it means to "brace against two opposite walls". You aren't going to be employ span-climbing in so narrow a gap. Furthermore, even if the gap were wide enough, you wouldn't be "fixed firmly", "steady", nor "secure against pressure or impact" with span climbing. That's rather a precarious way to climb. Maybe a feat would allow you to do that, but that's why Ninja Warrior is a challenge; not just anyone can pull it off. Bracing yourself against an opposite wall, by definition of "brace" as well as the exemplar provided by the Chimney, means you are supporting your weight firmly against the wall while you move your hands and feet to new grip locations.

Gauss wrote:

Regarding the pit dimensions, if it were a 10'diameter pit it would say that. It doesn't. Clearly, there are spells that have areas listed in diameters (or radius). This has a distance listed in a square and thus, it is a square. Perhaps they did that on purpose so people cannot try to say 'but the pit is a circle so I can jump a smaller distance by jumping along the edge!'.

If it were a square pit, it would say that. Rounded vertexes are a thing, you know. Also, it wouldn't make any significant difference regarding jump distance because, diagonally across a perfectly square pit half way between the corner and the center would only be 7.1 feet. In fact, a circular pit would be harder to rationalize jumping across a narrower portion between the edge and the center due to how circles work. Half way between the center and the edge of the circle would be a secant distance of 8.7 feet. All the description of the pit indicates is that it occupies a space 10 feet by 10 feet. A medium or small character occupies a space 5 feet by 5 feet, but they aren't squares. A large creature occupies 10 feet by 10 feet, but they aren't squares. Therefore, 10 feet by 10 feet of tactical space, on its own, doesn't guarantee a perfect square. It may not be perfectly circular every single time, but it also isn't definitively perfectly square. In other words, you fell victim to the Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle Term. Cats have 4 legs. Dogs have 4 legs. But that doesn't mean that Cats are Dogs. Created Pits are 10 feet by 10 feet. Squares have equal length sides. Therefore, Created pits are Squares. The conclusion is logically invalid.

[Gauss]

Where are you getting the measurements for a chimney? I was unable to find anything that states a chimney's dimensions. Unless Pathfinder defines the size of a chimney it can be of any size.

Regarding the rest of your brace/chimney, show the rules please. You keep pulling concepts in from outside the game, concepts that simply do not belong in a generalized game like Pathfinder.

You are flat out wrong regarding the pit, its specific dimensions are 10x10. It is perfectly square. You really should read the spell.

[Gauss]

So, to bring this back to a rules discussion, even if it is 3.5rules we have the following:

In 3.5 the PHB climb skill rules for bracing was the same as in Pathfinder's CRB.

But, in 3.5 they also came out with Dungeonscape which codified when a person could use bracing in a "chimney".

Dungeonscape p27 wrote:

Chimneys

Little more than a narrow pit, a chimney might be a natural feature or built to allow air flow. It can be ascended or descended with a Climb check. The DC for this check is normal for that of the surface of the chimney. Often a natural chimney is slippery, increasing the DCs of Climb checks by 5 as normal. The Climb check DC is reduced by 10 if the climber can brace himself against opposite walls (PH 69). For a Small or Medium creature, this means that the chimney can be no wider than 5 feet in one dimension (5 feet wide and 20 feet long, for example). Add 5 feet to this width for each size category larger than Medium.
For example, a human rogue, having just robbed a fire giant’s treasure, attempts to escape down a chimney with adequate handholds that is 10 feet wide, 10 feet long, and 40 feet deep. The fire giant’s guards are chasing her. While the rogue must make successful
DC 15 Climb checks to descend the chimney, the Climb check DC for the pursuing fire giants is only 5 because they can brace against the opposite wall.

So, that means a Small or Medium creature climbing 5' wide space or a Large creature climbing a 10' wide space resulted in a -10 to the climb DC.

Now, Pathfinder has not published expanded rules on climbing, but it has not changed them either. It is not a stretch to think that 3.5's rule in this regard is how it is still intended to operate.

[Finlanderboy]

keep in mind climbing also take 4 times your movement, So most creatures need to double move to get away from that ledge.

[Weirdo]

Climbing.com wrote:

["Chimney"] refers to any fissure that your body fits inside, ranging from a squeeze chimney (one to two feet wide) to much wider, where you must stem the gap with a foot and hand on each side.

[Gauss]

Thank you Weirdo, I think that quote corresponds perfectly with how 3.5 rules indicated chimneys work.

Clearly, not just 'back against the wall' type of climbing.

[Gisher]

Yes, yes this is all very interesting, but I would like to know how you calculate the DC to jump over this 10' pit with a large creature in it.

Runs for cover.

[Joesi]

I'm conflicted, but I tend to agree with Kazaan. It's not helpful to have a wall so far away that you can barely reach it. Ninja Warrior's spider climb walls are only 4 Feet apart, and even then it's difficult.

Chimneys/flues are generally 2 feet or less in width. That's enough space for even a fat or very large person to fit into. That said, the rules don't give any indication that a chimney is at all the max width for that. It could very well be much larger. It's not specific, and up to GM interpretation.

Either way I'd certainly say that the corner and opposite wall bonuses don't stack.

I'd also say that the pit is circular (no corners to brace), but just takes up a 10x10 square on the game board, but that's more of a GM interpretation.

Overall for this scenario I'd say it depends on the creature's limb span (which is generally proportional to their height, at least for the tall-type creatures) as to whether or not it should gain such a bonus.

Regarding the OP's question I'd say that it would definitely be an easier climb to scale a 10 foot wall for most large creatures. Only the smallest large creatures (8 or 9 feet tall) might have trouble.
The 2 bonuses giving for climbing isn't an exhaustive list of possible environmental bonuses for climbing.

[Gauss]

Joesi, if the pit created by Create Pit was circular then the dimensions of the pit would be listed as a diameter or radius. It is listed as a square. There is no interpretation here, that is what the dimensions of the spell is listed as.

As for the wall, I have already shown how, in 3.5, the developers wrote rules stating that small/medium creatures can use bracing to climb 5' wide chimneys with a -10 to the climb DC and that for every size increase there is a 5' increase to the distance the creature can use bracing.

Pathfinder has not changed the climb skill bracing rule so that should still be the intent until such a time Paizo states otherwise.

Finally, by referencing "flues" I think you may be thinking 'chimney' as in 'passage for flame, smoke, and hot gasses' when chimney also has the more applicable term (to climbing) of any near-vertical passage in rock or stone. There are no set definitions for the width of a chimney.

Summary: Create Pit, by rule, is absolutely square.
By legacy intent that does not appear to have changed with the current edition, a small-gargantuan creature is able to brace a distance equal to it's space.

The first is written, the second appears to be reasonable intent based on legacy rules.

[_Ozy_]

A small creature bracing across 5'?

How?

[Gwen Smith]

I'd let the creature make the climb DC with whatever bonuses they can add (corner climb, rope and grappling hook, any other gear, etc.), but when they get to the top, if they don't have enough movement to get out of the square, they will have to make the Reflex save to avoid falling back in.

(I would also let them end their movement just below the lip, then on the following round climb the last foot or two and continue their move so they don't end their move adjacent to the pit.)

[Paulicus]

The simple answer is that this is a game, and the rules are simplified for ease of use.

[Jubal Breakbottle]

So to summarize the answer to my OP:

Knight Magenta and Gauss say DC 10 = 25 Create Pit RAW -5 corner -10 chimney, right?

Kazaan says DC 20 = 25 Create Pit RAW -5 corner, right?

So, the only thing in conflict is whether the chimney rules apply, right?

thanks

PS Sorry if I didn't mention your opinion. I'm just trying to summarize. Thanks

[Kazaan]

Jubal Breakbottle wrote:

So to summarize the answer to my OP:

Knight Magenta and Gauss say DC 10 = 25 Create Pit RAW -5 corner -10 chimney, right?

Kazaan says DC 20 = 25 Create Pit RAW -5 corner, right?

So, the only thing in conflict is whether the chimney rules apply, right?

thanks

PS Sorry if I didn't mention your opinion. I'm just trying to summarize. Thanks

I'd say DC 20 only if the pit was created with viable corners. If the pit automatically had corners, I'd say that would be included in the description of the DC to climb.

Also, @Gauss, again, 3.5 rules aren't exactly relevant because the ones that were ported over would actually be in the Pathfinder book. The fact that they deliberately omitted that rule should demonstrate that it was recognized how ridiculous it would be that a Human can brace himself horizontally in a 5' span and, even more so, a Halfling could do the same. The rule, in Pathfinder, is that you need to be able to brace yourself to provide a benefit to climbing and I demonstrated that, just because a medium creature takes up 5' of tactical space on the grid doesn't mean that they are a perfect cube that can satisfy the meaning of the word brace by stretching across the gap. That extrapolates to the same concept regarding a Large creature across a 10' gap. The 3.5 line simply makes no sense and is a failure on the designer's part.

[Jeff Merola]

Kazaan wrote:

Also, @Gauss, again, 3.5 rules aren't exactly relevant because the ones that were ported over would actually be in the Pathfinder book. The fact that they deliberately omitted that rule should demonstrate that it was recognized how ridiculous it would be that a Human can brace himself horizontally in a 5' span and, even more so, a Halfling could do the same.

Uh, no. It wasn't deliberately omitted for any reason other than it couldn't be added. That 3.5 rule wasn't part of the OGL content, so it couldn't be replicated by Paizo.

[Finlanderboy]

Let the giant climb out. It is not an easy thing once they are out. To go over the lip of the pit is a hard corner, and the movement drained from climbing whittles down their options.

Once they get out of the pit they need to move away or they can easily fall in again. So they get slammed by your allies right there.

Create pit is a giant slayer spell as their low reflex saves and big space makes them easy targets .

[Gauss]

Kazaan, as Jeff Merola stated, they could not port it over due to OGL restrictions. Many gaps in the Pathfinder rules exist because of rules that were not OGL and thus not able to be ported over.

Does that make the intent any less clear? No.
Does your opinion that the 3.5 designers failed on this matter as far as the rules forum is concerned? No.

You have yet to show, in the rules, why someone cannot brace in their space. You keep bringing up real life examples that are ultimately irrelevant. This is a game, it is not real life. If this were real life people would not be able to swim while carrying 2x their body weight in lead or any number of other things that Pathfinder rules do (without magic!).

How about flight? My gaming group has a bird biologist. She regularly laughs at the inaccuracies of flight mechanics let alone outfitting a (non-magical) bird in light armor. Simply cannot be done in real life. But Pathfinder is not real life and she understands that.

Please keep Real Life out of the game in the rules forum and put it where it belongs, in the Pathfinder RPG forum or the houserules forum.

Summary: do you have a rule you can quote that shows why a large creature cannot brace in a 10' pit? I have shown the rules intent here that clearly shows you can, it is up to you to show the rules that states you cannot.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some off-topic back and forth posts.

[Kazaan]

Gauss wrote:

Summary: do you have a rule you can quote that shows why a large creature cannot brace in a 10' pit? I have shown the rules intent here that clearly shows you can, it is up to you to show the rules that states you cannot.

No, you've shown a rules intent from a different game that is catastrophically bad design because it allows a small creature to brace across a 5' gap. Do you have an actual rule in Pathfinder which says a creature can brace in its full tactical space? Because, as has often been said, Pathfinder is a game of permissions; if it doesn't say it can be done, it can't be done. The rules say that you get -10 on the Climb DC if you can brace yourself against the opposite wall. A large creature cannot brace themselves, by the definition of the word brace, across a 10' gap.

[TriOmegaZero]

Kazaan wrote:

No, you've shown a rules intent from a different game that is catastrophically bad design because it allows a small creature to brace across a 5' gap.

That's an opinion. What isn't is that the different game you speak of was written by the same designers that worked on Pathfinder. What is also an opinion is 'a Large creature cannot brace themselves...across a 10' gap'. Gauss and I both agree that a Large creature can, and unless you provide a rule otherwise, you've no firmer ground on the rules than we do.

[Gauss]

Kazaan,

First, yes, I claimed it was the rules intent from the predecessor game. I am not sure how you saying it is a different game is any different a statement.

Second, the rule is no different in Pathfinder so why would the interpretation be different?

Third, it being 'bad design' is your opinion. An opinion that has no bearing on the discussion in this forum.

Finally, definitions of bracing vary. 3.5 clearly used a different definition from the one you use when they wrote the rule. The rule has not changed in Pathfinder, why would the definition have changed?

Again, please show why the operation of this rule is different than the previous version when the rule is not different.

[TriOmegaZero]

And if we want to talk about real world measurements, this image shows how a Large creature could brace across a 10ft gap. Specifically, the topmost representation. Hill giants are listed at 10ft tall, fire giants at 12 to 16ft, and trolls at 14ft.

[Gauss]

TriOmegaZero, except that, to Kazaan, that is not bracing (or so he stated earlier in the thread).