Martials do more damage and can take damage and fight in melee better than casters in general. A high-level paladin or Invulnerable Rager barbarian will be practically impossible to put down through raw damage. What they can't do is anything else.
How does a high level paladin or AM BARBARIAN compare to a wildshape druid with an AC of lolno? I suspect the answer is "not bad, but not great either". Plus, y'know, fullcaster.
At low to medium levels, the martials are really very strong. The disparity really starts when you get 5th level spells.
At high levels - a wizard needs minions to go out and do their dirty work for them. But at that point, they're likely living in their own demiplane with a half dozen clones, an army of undead/constructs/whatever, and a few bound extra planar servants. They are probably just still friends with that big stupid fighter that kept dragging their ass around dungeons, keeping them safe from level 1 to 5 or so and might feel a sense of obligation to keeping them around.
But I don't like playing the very high levels. The game gets rather silly.
In the campaign I am running, C/M disparity started happening straight away. Druid and Witch manage to repeatedly shut down encounters, Inquisitor is consistently solid but not spectacular, UnMonk is either useless or comes within an inch of being downed after maybe 1 full attack every fight. It started at level 3, by the way. 2nd level spells and Hexes are enough. And neither the druid or witch are that optimized, by the way.
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A couple of things:
1) Player ability matters. I had a player join one of my games saying he wanted to play an archer fighter. We recommended Inquisitor, as it gets a bunch of cool stuff, plus the spellcasting, and is generally awesome. What we DIDN'T know is that he'd proceed to do basically NOTHING but fire a crossbow once every 2 rounds for 6 levels.
Martials are easy, and some players need easy classes that are still effective. They may not always be optimal, but they're easy to make viable.
2) Group composition matters. You need a balance of abilities, especially at low levels. Starting with generally better defensive proficiency is important at lower levels, and having very few spell slots means that you need someone that can swing a weapon well all day long to survive combat, and martials do it best at low levels. By the time you get to mid levels, they start to plateau in usefulness, but they're still handy to have around.
At low levels, though, martials can be a crucial part of any party in regards to longevity and survivability.
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They are probably just still friends with that big stupid fighter that kept dragging their ass around dungeons, keeping them safe from level 1 to 5 or so and might feel a sense of obligation to keeping them around.
"Now you're just somebody that I used to know"
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The caster/martial disparity is significantly lessened by having a capable DM. If you have the kind of DM who only knows how to throw generic mooks with low will saves at you, lets you rest after every battle, doesn't understand how to use combined arms for encounter design, can't be bothered to read up on the numerous (but rarely used) rules intended to help balance casters, and never really fortifies his villains with the appropriate magical defenses, yeah, casters are going to dominate your game.
So, why would you want a martial in your party? If this is seriously the kind of question you're pondering, maybe you need to ask yourself a different question: "Why don't I get (or become) a better DM?"
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It doesn't help that Paizo is releasing archetypes that allow the clever played Full caster into combat...
Lets see a Break down
First, the Arcanes
ARCANIST
Exploits:
Shift Caster+Altered Shifting allow for the Arcanist to adapt to the situations on the fly. And a melee arcanist will most definetely be VERY transmutation focused.
Arcane Weapon Gives the Arcanist extra levels of adaptability to deal with things like elemental Weaknesses or even give himself an edge with dancing off sword with a primary Black Blade.
Dimensional Slide Is a terrifyingly useful ability when combined with Fly By Attack and Dragon Form. You can move, attack, then shift away with ease.
Shadow Veil Allows for a easy 20% miss chance which is always nice. At lower levels this is especially handy to have on.
Alter Enhancements- A greater exploit that allows a Melee focused arcanist to have even greater versatility to switch out some enhancement enchantments with more obscure ones. The most obvious use is to pretty much replicate the Inquisitor's ability to have a bane weapon tuned to your enemy on demand (just change from Bane Abberation to Bane Dragon for instance).
Archetypes:
Blade Adept Here... lets give this nifty black blade the magus has and to the Arcanist.
Blood Arcanist can be nasty by getting some bonuses from powerful sorcerer bloodlines
Brown Fur Trasmuter is REDICULOUSLY powerful for druid type melee arcanists....
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Sorcerer
Bloodlines
Aberrant Is nifty for the fortification ability and the extended reach is nifty. The Big bonus here though is the ability to apply free Extend spells on transmutation [polymorph] spells.
Abyssal Very good for EH for Arcanists and Other melee sorcerers. Not as good as a primary bloodline because you mainly only care for the Inherent Bonus for Str, which IS nice.
Div Is actually rather useful for replicating something like TPKs malefactor. You just apply walls of debuffs so the opponent is hurting hard.
Ghoul Now things get nasty. Ghouls can actually make for a very interesting and nasty melee caster. The ability to lay Paralysis and Bleed is quite appealing. Also, the Dig Speed and Fast healing 10 allows for some rather unexpected durability.
Nanite is a very effective bloodline that gives you the aberrant duration boost but also gives you some very powerful durability boosters as well.
Orc and the big Kahone of the bunch. This bloodline, by itself, can net you +6 Nat armor, +4 saves vs fear, +12 Str (6 inherent, 6 size), +4 con, immunity to fire, AND DR 5/-... and that is before dropping a single spell...
Archetypes:
Eldritch Scrapper now just to add icing to the insult cake... I mean, now the Sorcerer is even more versatile in MARTIAL COMBAT than the fighter... AND he still got his spells...
Imma get to the Divines later... that is gonna take A WHILE... since the Divines are the reason mundane martials REALLY have no reason to exist...
Two Paladins closed down the end boss in the scenario we ran last night in one round one hit each , 148 damage and one of them is a sword and Board.
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because I am fun to play with and I enjoy playing this game
Now the real questions that are inevitable, what level were the Paladins?
Also, no one is saying martials are COMPLETELY useless. No one said they can't do damage.
The problem is that they have a harder time doing is consistently without either:
a Full caster to help them
or
GM plays soft ball.
The most common example is a dragon encounter. If played intelligently, they will have a AC that is tough to beat thanks to magic, resistances, and the oh so popular Move+Flyby attack breath weapon+fly away with a 200+ ft fly speed. Often, unless you are specifically an Archer type, that will be a near impossible fight for melee martials....
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Imma get to the Divines later... that is gonna take A WHILE... since the Divines are the reason mundane martials REALLY have no reason to exist...You forgot Core Wizard [Transmuter does it best, but any of them can pull it off if they see fit to and squeeze in at least a 14 strength at the start of character creation.]
Yeah, but wizards are a little more spell focused instead of ability focused. Generally speaking a wizard will just do what the arcanist or Sorcerer does but slightly worse since they dont have the super ramping abilities that they got specifically for melee coverage and they really don't have archetypes that help much like the Eldritch Scrapper or the Blade Adept. For the most part a Wizard is kinda the worst "martial replacement" outside of Summon Spam. Now granted, a "melee replacement wizard" while not as solid on the melee side of things, does still have the edge on versatility since... well... they are freaking wizards. They may not gain much on melee, but they don't lose out for specializing either.
Witchs I have also not done yet since, truthfully, I'm not too sure there IS much a witch can do in melee outside of spells.
Unless you count beast Bonded shinanigens I guess :P. Then, in that case they are the BEST at melee xD.
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I just need 5 things a martial can do that's necessary to a group that's not easily filled by the spell casters.
Challenge accepted:
1. You need a Martial in your Party to make you feel better about yourself in comparison. They improve party morale by setting an example of mediocrity.
2. You need a Martial in your Party so that you help this downtrodden soul with magical support and thus feel better about yourself even more. They improve party morale by encouraging charity.
3. You need a Martial in your Party because there has to be at least ONE person in your party who you can prank with impunity because they don't have ranks in spellcraft or access to detect magic.
4. You need a Martial in your Party because they save you a 'Summon Monster I-X' spell slot every now and then.
5. You need a Martial in your Party to remind you why you don't play a martial.
7th and 11th playing in a 7-11 at high tier in Vengeance at Sundered Crag, Playing a Martial Smart means you can do just as well as a Caster.
hahah oh true that true that.
I was bringing up more the fact that, with recent expansions in archetypes, bloodlines, and the like, that they made it so that the "squishy" arcane casters can very well take over the spot with very capable strength and skill. I mean, a Ghoul Sorcerer is utterly nasty.
(BTW, this thread has inspired me to create a Ghoul Sorcerer in a homebrew game my GM is about to run :P. Imma be a melee counter part to the party Bloodrager, utilizing my magic to get into flanking positions).
hmm.... Ghoul Sorcerer with EH Orc... that could be doable... getting the huge boosts to Str, and the Claws help counter act the poor BAB and lack of iteritives...
Or a Blood Arcanist with Ghoul Bloodline, EH Orc,... and something xD
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Because it would be fun to roleplay? I'm not in the camp that it's 'all about' eeking out every last advantage... <shrug> Just not my play style. :-)
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Here's an experiment you should try: Delete everything you've ever heard online about "martials suck" from your brain, forget you ever heard it, then play a few games with a well-mixed party and observe the proceedings with fresh eyes. I think you'll find that there's nothing at all wrong with "martials." They do exactly what they're supposed to do, damned well, and without the limitations and drawbacks that mages pay for their power with. The idea that they're no good is really just the result of a hivemind effect that prejudices people to see what they've been told to see.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
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Martials are a wonderful addition to a party. That is not what caster / martial disparity is about. Martials can use a wide variety of weapons in order to do damage, and they have a fair amount of hit points to absorb damage.
The problem is what martials can do OUTSIDE of combat that can't be accomplished by, say, a commoner or expert? The martial also has very limited ability to alter the narrative.
This can lead to martial PCs becoming bored outside of combat unless the player is highly motivated.
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Or just play and don't worry about it. Play the game that makes you and yours happy, adjust the rules to your liking, use the material that makes your game what you want.
Worrying about what sucks more or less is a waste of valuable time playing.
Some good answers here. I agree with Harry Canyon and Headfirst.
Quantum spellcasters are the real problem -- those pesky wizards who seem to have every spell needed for any situation and enemies always fail their saving throws against them. Too bad these spellcasters only exist on internet forum discussions. A good martial has high AC, high HP, and is a killing machine.
As for martials outside of combat: Martial characters are respected by the populace, and by the rulers. Fighters are covered in metal and carry deadly weapons. They tend to be (as they ought to) belong to organizations of reknown, whether it be a paladin's order or a pirate band.
For example: an "arcanist kitsune with draconic bloodline and a level dip in stormwind sorcerer" will likely get roasted on a spit by a hungry village. A "Human Hellknight of the Order of the Nail" will be invited to the feast, and asked to tell of his exploits.
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Now why is that? Besides GM fiat?
Remember, kitsune are VERY good at pretending to be human. And the Sorcerer will be MUCH better than the hellknight on social abilities (cha and all...)
Also, AC means little vs touch, only Pallies, normal.monks, and chained barbarians with superstition have strong saves all around, and high damage means nothing when you can GET to the enemy.
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As long as Summon Monster is a spell that is on just about every caster in the game's list, martials are more replaceable than socks
Until level 5, when full casters can do things like Fly or Fireball... the Martials kick ass.
After that... they suck donkey balls.
You guys are clearly terrible at making balanced casters. It's really not that hard to make one who doesn't outshine martials and break the CR system. Focus on buff spells and battlefield control. Also, don't just use up all your spells early and then rest - conserve them so you can fight eight or nine encounters in a day. As for out-of-combat situations, adopt the philosophy that it's wrong to use magic to achieve anything that could be achieved without it.
Martials will then start to look pretty darn useful.
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You guys are clearly terrible at making balanced casters. It's really not that hard to make one who doesn't outshine martials and break the CR system. Focus on buff spells and battlefield control. Also, don't just use up all your spells early and then rest - conserve them so you can fight eight or nine encounters in a day. As for out-of-combat situations, adopt the philosophy that it's wrong to use magic to achieve anything that could be achieved without it.
Martials will then start to look pretty darn useful.
You literally just said people are bad at the game for playing the game well. Yeesh. EDIT: Although now I think you are probably being sarcastic. Hard to tell at 3AM.
Anyway, are we talking martials here, or just fighters/rogues? Because I can think of plenty of reasons to want a martial. A GOOD martial. Paladins and Barbarians are the two of the most durable classes in the game, thanks to great saves, AC, HP, and DR. Sometimes this matters. Sometimes your DM is going to hit your party with a Mass Suffocation before you even know you are in a fight. The Pally and Barbar can shrug that off and go gank the squishy who cast it while your arcane casters struggle not to die. And unlike the Fighter, they can also shrug off the Dominate Person to avoid killing their teammates. And they can get some utility from rage powers and spells. AND they also hit things really, really hard.
The Ranger meanwhile gets skill points and class features to help out of combat, evasion to reduce some of it's damage, and some spells. Monks have great saves across the board and some nifty abilities to target casters. If you run through most of the expanded class list you'll find nice reasons to have any particular thing around.
The fighter and Rogue are the exception. If the fighter can hit things, it can do it hard. But it lacks defenses beyond AC, so it is functionally less sustainable than the Pally or Barbar. And it brings nothing unique to the table out of combat that you can't do better with something else.
The Rogue just struggles, mostly in combat but skills only get you so far at higher levels.
So, why would you want a good martial in your party? Because often times pure damage can still win the day, and martial can always do that. Because sometimes you don't get to pre-buff and have to take some lumps before acting and the martial weathers that better. Because having the one guy charge screaming at the giant and headbutt it will serve as the distraction you need to cast your fight ending spell. (Yes, a smart enemy may try and target a caster first, but if your caster wears plain clothes and the guy in the robe is actually a monk...) Because the martial can make a strength check and save you a spell. Because when the giant squid starts grappling and you don't have Freedom of Movement, the martial has the CMD to escape and can cut you free.
Will they be able to contribute as effectively in all possible situations? Hell no. Should your DM be mindful of the martial/caster disparity when building encounters? Totally. But even the Summon Monster spells have a 1 round casting time, and having a meatshield already by your side is awesome.
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You guys are clearly terrible at making balanced casters. It's really not that hard to make one who doesn't outshine martials and break the CR system. Focus on buff spells and battlefield control. Also, don't just use up all your spells early and then rest - conserve them so you can fight eight or nine encounters in a day. As for out-of-combat situations, adopt the philosophy that it's wrong to use magic to achieve anything that could be achieved without it.
Martials will then start to look pretty darn useful.
So... your suggestion is to play down a class that is easy to over tune so what? So the fighter gets his participation award?
You guys are clearly terrible at making balanced casters. It's really not that hard to make one who doesn't outshine martials and break the CR system. Focus on buff spells and battlefield control. Also, don't just use up all your spells early and then rest - conserve them so you can fight eight or nine encounters in a day. As for out-of-combat situations, adopt the philosophy that it's wrong to use magic to achieve anything that could be achieved without it.
Martials will then start to look pretty darn useful.
You are, in fact, hilarious.
It is easy to make a crappy caster. It's also easy to make a very powerful one.
It's not hard to make martials look useful if you all work towards that goal, but as a class, they do NOT compare to casters.
As the game evolves, grouping "martials" and "casters" becomes a bit less appropriate. Among the casters there is a pretty big difference between a sorcerer and a psychic; one can be shut down by any martial character making a skillcheck.
Likewise, it's fairly inappropriate to group a barbarian, with a fighter. Hell, it's almost inappropriate to group a melee great sword wielding fighter, with a properly built archer.
The people who are claiming magic invalidates mundane as early as 5th level also are a bit overzealous. Sure, you can cast fly at 5th level, but you're using one of your extremely precious high level slots to do it. The true breakdown begins to happen at around 9th/10th level from my experience and it's partially supported by the way casters lower level spells scale with level; it simply adds to their exponential growth in power.
Martials don't require a place in your campaign, by that token, neither do spellcasters of the full scale 9th variety or any other. Martials are required in the SYSTEM, to uphold the status quo and to give people the option to be, that guy who is good at hitting stuff.
As the game evolves, grouping "martials" and "casters" becomes a bit less appropriate. Among the casters there is a pretty big difference between a sorcerer and a psychic; one can be shut down by any martial character making a skillcheck.
Likewise, it's fairly inappropriate to group a barbarian, with a fighter. Hell, it's almost inappropriate to group a melee great sword wielding fighter, with a properly built archer.
The people who are claiming magic invalidates mundane as early as 5th level also are a bit overzealous. Sure, you can cast fly at 5th level, but you're using one of your extremely precious high level slots to do it. The true breakdown begins to happen at around 9th/10th level from my experience and it's partially supported by the way casters lower level spells scale with level; it simply adds to their exponential growth in power.
Martials don't require a place in your campaign, by that token, neither do spellcasters of the full scale 9th variety or any other. Martials are required in the SYSTEM, to uphold the status quo and to give people the option to be, that guy who is good at hitting stuff.
As a long term proponent of Fighters... I will never play one again. The Hunter class is VASTLY superior to any Fighter (3/4 BAB sure, but an animal companion to make up for that!).
Hunters ALSO get spellcasting!!!
Also! Their pets are better than a Druids (basically a +2 to a stat, as far as I'm concerned)...
AND!!! Hunters share Teamwork feats with pets! (THEY GET BONUS TEAMWORK FEATS BTW!!!)
Yep. Fighters are obsolete.
Only an insane person would play a Fighter, assuming someone explained all that to them.
As the game evolves, grouping "martials" and "casters" becomes a bit less appropriate. Among the casters there is a pretty big difference between a sorcerer and a psychic; one can be shut down by any martial character making a skillcheck.
Likewise, it's fairly inappropriate to group a barbarian, with a fighter. Hell, it's almost inappropriate to group a melee great sword wielding fighter, with a properly built archer.
The people who are claiming magic invalidates mundane as early as 5th level also are a bit overzealous. Sure, you can cast fly at 5th level, but you're using one of your extremely precious high level slots to do it. The true breakdown begins to happen at around 9th/10th level from my experience and it's partially supported by the way casters lower level spells scale with level; it simply adds to their exponential growth in power.
Martials don't require a place in your campaign, by that token, neither do spellcasters of the full scale 9th variety or any other. Martials are required in the SYSTEM, to uphold the status quo and to give people the option to be, that guy who is good at hitting stuff.
As a long term proponent of Fighters... I will never play one again. The Hunter class is VASTLY superior to any Fighter (3/4 BAB sure, but an animal companion to make up for that!).
Hunters ALSO get spellcasting!!!
Also! Their pets are better than a Druids (basically a +2 to a stat, as far as I'm concerned)...
AND!!! Hunters share Teamwork feats with pets! (THEY GET BONUS TEAMWORK FEATS BTW!!!)
Yep. Fighters are obsolete.
Only an insane person would play a Fighter, assuming someone explained all that to them.
Lets not forget the Slayer. full base, better saves, 6+ skills... Ranger feats through talents. That class is nuts.
Lets not forget the Slayer. full base, better saves, 6+ skills... Ranger feats through talents. That class is nuts.As the game evolves, grouping "martials" and "casters" becomes a bit less appropriate. Among the casters there is a pretty big difference between a sorcerer and a psychic; one can be shut down by any martial character making a skillcheck.
Likewise, it's fairly inappropriate to group a barbarian, with a fighter. Hell, it's almost inappropriate to group a melee great sword wielding fighter, with a properly built archer.
The people who are claiming magic invalidates mundane as early as 5th level also are a bit overzealous. Sure, you can cast fly at 5th level, but you're using one of your extremely precious high level slots to do it. The true breakdown begins to happen at around 9th/10th level from my experience and it's partially supported by the way casters lower level spells scale with level; it simply adds to their exponential growth in power.
Martials don't require a place in your campaign, by that token, neither do spellcasters of the full scale 9th variety or any other. Martials are required in the SYSTEM, to uphold the status quo and to give people the option to be, that guy who is good at hitting stuff.
As a long term proponent of Fighters... I will never play one again. The Hunter class is VASTLY superior to any Fighter (3/4 BAB sure, but an animal companion to make up for that!).
Hunters ALSO get spellcasting!!!
Also! Their pets are better than a Druids (basically a +2 to a stat, as far as I'm concerned)...
AND!!! Hunters share Teamwork feats with pets! (THEY GET BONUS TEAMWORK FEATS BTW!!!)
Yep. Fighters are obsolete.
Only an insane person would play a Fighter, assuming someone explained all that to them.
Ugh, haven't even bothered with more than a cursory glance. I'm a pet guy, and Hunter has that built in.
:D
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Step 1. Get a pet giant eagle or Griffin or large flying animal.
Step 2. Have it pick up and move your martial into full attack range during its turn.
Now you are OP and doing way to much damage or no damage because the AC is too high. Martials are garbage not as a concept but because of the full attack mechanic.
Step 1. Get a pet giant eagle or Griffin or large flying animal.
Step 2. Have it pick up and move your martial into full attack range during its turn.
Now you are OP and doing way to much damage or no damage because the AC is too high. Martials are garbage not as a concept but because of the full attack mechanic.
LOL if the GM actually pits you against something the Fighter can't hit, that... sucks...
If it's common, it's a bad GM.
Let me begin with martial classes with casting abilities.
Take, for example, a semi-optimized Inquisitor with a built-in handicap.
I once had a craving to see how much damage I could do with a knife, without sneak attack damage, and- for funsies- throwing them.
Excellent party face- minimum roll of 40 for Bluff/Intimidate/Sense Motive.
Excellent for infiltration- Minimum 34 for Stealth, minimum 29 Disguise. All of these things able to be increased by spells, but- for these figures- no.
Excellent for attack/damage- When under the effects of maximum buffs (from self only), a FRA yielded five attacks at level 15: +35/+35/+35/+30/+25 (within first range increment), 1d4+33+4d6 damage per hit. Potentially as much as 305 damage in one round, assuming no critical hits.
Remaining feats (not used to optimize attacking) and spells (not used to buff) are to assist with battlefield control.
Perhaps I've not answered the question of what a martial may do that a (full) caster cannot, but I believe I have posed the question of what (relevant) actions a full caster may take that a sufficiently developed predominantly-martial character cannot.
But, I've been unfair. I used a class with spellcasting, martial though it may be in function. Let me try with a full martial.
Monk. Level 14. Sub-optimal equipment, a fair amount of wealth left unspent.
Defensive statistics: AC 41, Touch 33, Flat-Footed 30. CMD: 44. Saves: Fortitude +17, Reflex: 18 (w/improved evasion), Will: 23 (+2 v enchantment). Spell Resistance: 24.
Offensive statistics: FRA yields 5 attacks, at +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 for 2d8+2 damage per hit, crits at 19-20/x2. Not impressive, in my opinion. However, CMB +16, +20 for grapple, and the Neckbreaker feat (as well as the appropriate feats to allow him to make multiple grapple checks in a round). Adequate for most, although admittedly not all foes, particularly with a potion of enlarge person at negligible cost.
Very difficult to hit. Fair odds of negating critical hits due to enchanted bracers of armor. Very difficult to meaningfully affect with spells. Can heal 14 damage 7 times per day.
Not the most punishing character in a martial sense, but fair. I utilized him as a DM against a party of about 6 level 12 characters. He killed one before they hit him even once (with the player's consent, I'm not a monster), and the fight against the remaining PCs was... A long ride. Approximately half of the party in question were full casters, for the record.
Again, I may have dodged the question of what a martial character can do that a full caster cannot. But (assuming you're willing to trust my math and general equipment/feat allocation) I believe this ought to answer the question of why one would want a martial character in the party. If someone asked me "Which would you rather have on your side- a mage capable of bending the world to his whim, or the guy who can survive his magic and snap his neck?" I, for one, would pick the latter.
In my opinion Martials don't have casting.
That means paladins, rangers etc aren't martials.