So, I know it's already debated, but I found something that seems to me a paradox, or at least incoherent: if I have a gauntlet, and I cast then move to touch my enemy, and during move I incur into an aoo, and the aoo give me an aoo itself, it seems that you can use the aoo to make an armed aoo with the gauntlet to discharge the spell (let's say a chill touch, multile charges, so no prob on subsequent hits), but once you do that, and you continue move toward your enemy, you can't hit him with nothing but a poke. But... a second ago you punched in the face that badass, punch+str+spell, and now you can't anymore? Wtf? Why? How can it be? Or do the aoo I made is the "free touch attack" of the spell? But in that case, what happen if I end my move toward my enemy? I can't touch him? It's a bit mindblowing.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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You post is a little tough to follow, but if understand correctly, you have up a touch spell with multiple charges, and you move to an enemy to touch him. On the way, another enemy provokes an AoO and you punch him, with the spell, as your AoO. You can still keep moving and finish your normal attack on the original target. Using an AoO doesn't take away your actions for the round. As long as the spell doesn't restrict uses to 1/round I'm not sure there's any issue.
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
" it seems that you can use the aoo to make an armed aoo with the gauntlet to discharge the spell "
You have two options to discharge the spell
1) Is the standard touch against touch ac
2) is to punch them in the face against their regular ac and deal + gauntlet damage. Since the gauntlet doesn't make your attack armed , this is no different than punching someone. If your punch draws an AoO, then so does this since neither the spell nor the gauntlet change that.
So if you walk up, the kobold tries to trip you, draws an AoO. You chill touch him. If you use just the chill touch, thats it. If you PUNCH TO THE FACE him, you draw another AoO if he has combat reflexes. When you get to the orc in th eback of the room you can punch him in the face drawing an AoO or just touch him and don't.: perfectly consistent.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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He is trying to make sense of the fact that he full on attacked the guy with an AOO but is only able to do a touch and not an attack against his primary target. Rules are in the way of visualization flavor.
Magus casts spell moves in to touch enemy 1 for the spell
Enemy 2 AOO, Magus AOO against enemy 2. Attack and spell touch BAM!
Magus continue to move to enemy 1 just touch spell.
Magus now wonders, why could i attack enemy 2 with a punch and the spell touch but i could only spell touch enemy 1. rules...
AHH ok.
Its because during the six seconds you're going, so is everyone else. The mini is just standing there like a ball of lead but the creature is parrying, dodgeing, and shifting about.
It only takes half a second to sucker punch the kobold because he left himself open. Because you cast the spell you don't have time to get through the Orcs guard with a punch.
Tap a 2 by four as quick as you can.
Punch it as fast as you can to break it.
The second has a MUCH longer wind up.
Sorry, BigNorseWolf, but ruleswise the rounds are not at the same time. As Shadowlord said, it makes absolutely no sense to me. I can punch with an aoo in the round of cast, but I can't punch my enemy in that very same round. That is, a punch in the fly is more effective than one for which I precisely do the cast. That's a non sense.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ah, now I understand your objection. I disagree with it, but I understand it. The rules are just an abstraction. Conceptually everything is going on at the same time - we use turns so that we can run combats without needing math software to crunch the numbers.
You get a punch at the enemy that provoked because he let his guard down and basically gave you a free shot. You only get to touch the original foe because he didn't let his guard down, and you're trying to land even a touch while he's actively trying to avoid you and hurt you in return.
AoOs already sacrifice some verisimilitude for convenience. I mean, letting your guard down for a spell provokes, but standing absolutely paralyzed does not. That bothers me much worse than your example.
Sorry, BigNorseWolf, but ruleswise the rounds are not at the same time. As Shadowlord said, it makes absolutely no sense to me. I can punch with an aoo in the round of cast, but I can't punch my enemy in that very same round. That is, a punch in the fly is more effective than one for which I precisely do the cast. That's a non sense.
you do not cast to punch. You cast to TOUCH.
Punching and touching are not remotely the same.
While what you as the player do is walk up to the orc and punch him in the face, what your character has to do is walk up and wait for a good time to punch him in the face, like when he has his axe up over his head, or has swung it, isn't blocking you etc. That takes a lot more time than just a touch.
Nope, a touch let you to defend actively, just as punch. The difference is that you don't need to bypass additional protection like armor or shield. Because if you say so, I could argue that a spellblade with arcane accuracy can punch you with the exactly same easyness of a touch. But even aside that the problem is still here. As an aoo, I have the choice, punch or touch. As a free attack I haven't. And why if they're different, for an aoo I have the choice?
Characters hold a charge are considered armed. Feel free to take your AoO with the touch attack or the gauntlets, since both options are available.
Taking the AoO will not interfere with your free touch attach, assuming you have at least one charge remaining and the spell is not specifically restricted to 1 touch/round.
If you understand the rule but just don't like it, it isn't really a rules question.
Bottom line is casting a touch spell gives you a free touch attack, while getting an attack of opportunity gives you a free melee attack of any type. One of those 'free attacks' is indeed more versatile than the other one.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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As a free attack I haven't. And why if they're different, for an aoo I have the choice?
I've totally read every post by you and I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.
I think you are asking "why can't I get two castings of a spell for one standard action if I get to make an AoO?" and you totally don't get why because it doesn't make sense.
How about I say it this way, once expended you can't expend it again without casting the spell again. Better?
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As a free attack I haven't. And why if they're different, for an aoo I have the choice?I've totally read every post by you and I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.
I think you are asking "why can't I get two castings of a spell for one standard action if I get to make an AoO?" and you totally don't get why because it doesn't make sense.
How about I say it this way, once expended you can't expend it again without casting the spell again. Better?
He specifically calls out Chill Touch, which does allow multiple charges. He does get to expend it multiple times and multiple times a round.
His issue is that he gets a free touch attack, instead of a regular attack, when in the middle of the same turn he could make an AOO that is a regular attack that uses a charge on the spell, but his 'free' attack is still only a touch.
It might be a 'I don't like the rules' but there is no interpretation problem.
He specifically calls out Chill Touch, which does allow multiple charges. He does get to expend it multiple times and multiple times a round.His issue is that he gets a free touch attack, instead of a regular attack, when in the middle of the same turn he could make an AOO that is a regular attack that uses a charge on the spell, but his 'free' attack is still only a touch.
Exactly.
It might be a 'I don't like the rules' but there is no interpretation problem.
Wait. It's not an "I don't like it" thing. It's just that I can't see any coherence in this rule this way. It's something like "you cannot do that, but since someone cross your way, you can do it with him, just because". Really, I can't find a bit of coherence. I know how the rule works. I just don't understand where lies the coherence in that. I really feel like they miss a "you can discharge your spell as normal even in the round you cast" line. I repeat: it's not a like our not question, it's a "why there's no consistence in that? " question.
Easiest way to put it is that it is game rules arbitrating reality. I would like to make note that it is really hard, if not possibly impossible, to be granted an aoo while you are moving. I believe Attacks of opportunity do not themselves provoke. I don't have the rule set for that handy, but it is intended to Prevent infinite loops. Of course I may be imagining that rule...
Taking an AoO does not in and off itself provoke, but what you do with that AoO may. E.g, making a trip attempt without improved trip will as your AoO will itself provoke AoO's.
It does not become an infinite loop though as, without feats, a character only gets on AoO per round. And even with feats (outside of mythic rules) there is still a cap.
@Blackstorm, the rules do not have 'coherence' in all things. Largely they align pretty nicely with out we visualize the real world. Sometimes they do not. If you are a GM (and not PFS GM), you are free to change them if you don't like them. If not, you will just need to learn to accept that the rules have some limitations in this regard.
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There is no contradiction. Your standard action is the casting of the spell. When you get to your target, you get a touch attack for "Free", it's not technically a Free Action, but it cost the same. It's a freebie given to casters in round 1. In round 2, you have to touch with a standard action.
It has nothing to do with the AoO, which is an "opportunity" that comes up due to someone leaving themselves open. And there is no contradiction in allowing an AoO, but not allowing a second standard action in the same round.
It is a lot easier to just touch someone than to punch them. You don't have to try to touch them in an area that will hurt them like you would a punch. Someone can block a punch (meaning full AC, not touch AC), but can only dodge a touch. If they try to block you can actually touch their block to deliver the charge, which is why touch AC is lower.
If you don't like it, then the "fair" thing to do is not to allow you to punch the target (this would give you a second standard action), but to take away the free touch attack in round one.
It's because the touch is FREE.
Attacking with a spiked gauntlet is a Standard Action.
Casting a spell is a Standard Action.
You can't Cast a spell AND attack with a spiked gauntlet in the same round (unless you are a Magus).
So when you Cast the touch spell, you are given the opportunity to discharge it on the same round by getting a free TOUCH (because giving you a free attack instead would be inconsistent with standard action economy rules, which is only ok for Magus :P)
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One thing I've seen be forgotten in this thread, is that Touch spells do not trigger attacks of opportunity. If you're holding the charge of a touch spell you're every bit as armed as when you're holding a sword. This even includes delivering the touch spell via unarmed strike with a gauntlet.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
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One thing I've seen be forgotten in this thread, is that Touch spells do not trigger attacks of opportunity. If you're holding the charge of a touch spell you're every bit as armed as when you're holding a sword. This even includes delivering the touch spell via unarmed strike with a gauntlet.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.[/b]
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Actually, if you are making an unarmed attack and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or a gauntlets, you provoke, even if you are holding the charge of a touch spell.
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I think it might be for one of two reasons:
If touch attacks to deliver spells provoked, no casters would use them. As it stands most don't use them anyway. So it's just for balance.
Or Secondly, punching vs touching is different in that you can be more careful while delivering a touch, and you don't have to get as close. You can touch their shin or elbow. But to punch effectively you have to commit, and hit them where it hurts. Like the difference between a jab and cross.
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Still, the reason touch attacks don't provoke is because the enemy is to wary of the spell to risk making the AoO. So the same should hold for unarmed strikes. I just personally dislike the rule. although typically characters i've had that punch with touch spells have either worn spiked gauntlets, or had monk levels anyway so I suppose its moot.
...One thing I've seen be forgotten in this thread, is that Touch spells do not trigger attacks of opportunity. If you're holding the charge of a touch spell you're every bit as armed as when you're holding a sword. This even includes delivering the touch spell via unarmed strike with a gauntlet.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.[/b]
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. [b]In this case, you aren't considered armed and
You only bolded part of the statement.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack
You can choose to make a standard unarmed attack instead of a touch attack while holding a charge, but provoke normally if you choose to do so.
Wait. It's not an "I don't like it" thing. It's just that I can't see any coherence in this rule this way. It's something like "you cannot do that, but since someone cross your way, you can do it with him, just because".
Don't bother looking for coherence.
AoOs don't really make sense in the first place. I can get an extra attack against someone who retrieves a potion because he lets his guard down? Why can't I have one against a paralysed character? Surely his guard is down? If I have a special ability that lets me take AoOs with a bow, why can I fire a fourth shot in a round when someone runs past me if I can only fire 3 when I'm making undistracted shots at a target?
The extra touch attack you get for free when you cast a touch spell makes no real sense either. Why can I cast a touch spell, then move, then touch an enemy as a free action (as long as those things are all in one round and not in the same order but across two different rounds), but not when I cast any other spell or take any other action at the start of my round?
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You can choose to make a standard unarmed attack instead of a touch attack while holding a charge, but provoke normally if you choose to do so.One thing I've seen be forgotten in this thread, is that Touch spells do not trigger attacks of opportunity. If you're holding the charge of a touch spell you're every bit as armed as when you're holding a sword. This even includes delivering the touch spell via unarmed strike with a gauntlet.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.[/b]
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. [b]In this case,...
And the point of your "You only bolded part of the statement." comment is?
You are saying exactly what I wrote.
Actually, if you are making an unarmed attack and you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike or a gauntlets, you provoke, even if you are holding the charge of a touch spell.
To be clear, the rules argument/question is resolved here and it has now moved on to a "but that doesn't make sense in this fantasy and magic world whose rules are just an abstraction of combat".
Maybe I should have posted somewhere else, but there's still an incoherence. I still don't get it. While for basically all the other rules I don't have problem to figure them out, I really have trouble to figure this rule when I try to imagine it. And that's because an unarmed strike or a punch is NOT a standard action to discharge. That's just the bare min in my turn.
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It's because everything is simply an abstraction. The easiest and worst that could come out of changing these rules would be 'no, you don't get a free touch when you cast a spell'.
Not to mention that this is a very, very slim chance of interaction - you have to cast, then provoke, and the provoker must use an attack that would provoke from you, for you to even have the opportunity to hit them. That basically limits it to untrained combat manuevers. Yes, when you get a few layers deep, the combat system starts to make less sense, because it is all abstractions.
Not to mention that this is a very, very slim chance of interaction - you have to cast, then provoke, and the provoker must use an attack that would provoke from you, for you to even have the opportunity to hit them. That basically limits it to untrained combat manuevers. Yes, when you get a few layers deep, the combat system starts to make less sense, because it is all abstractions.
Hmmm. I think I can't get anybody to the point: if the limit case could happen, then the standard case still get no sense. "It's simply an abstraction" seems not to work for me. I don't want to seem someone who want to get right at any cost, but really, I just want some help to understand why, while I can punch in the face during the aoo, I can't do the same when I reach the enemy. It's totally nonsense.
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Well, if that's it, then here you go:
"Because that's the way the rules are written."
It's a game system and as such, is not written perfectly for every instance. You aren't going to get someone who can explain in a way that makes sense exactly 'why' it is that way - those are the rules as written, clearly.
Now, if it doesn't make sense to you to the point where you don't like it, as a GM, you can always create a houserule however you would like.
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Try this,
1. When holding a charge the spell discharges if you touch anything.
2. Touching an unwilling enemy is an attack that normally requires a minimum action economy of a standard action.
3. When you cast a touch spell you get to Touch something for free that turn.
4. A Punch is unarmed strike, not the same as a Touch, but is also an attack which under normal circumstances requires a minimum action economy of a standard action.
5. An opponent triggering an attack of opportunity against you gives you a free Attack, You may use this attack to make any sort of attack allowed by the AOO rules including both Touching an opponent and Punching him with an unarmed strike.
So since the spell casting rule specifically only gives a free touch, and not a free attack, then when the AO is triggered you can first take your free punch, then your free touch. I agree that if you're imagining combat cinematicaly (like if you were watching a movie) there would seem to be very little difference and it doesn't make sense that you can punch for one and not the other, but unfortunately rules don't have to be perfect reality simulators to function, they merely need to be followed.