My reading is no, but ambiguous. Press to the Wall says you count the wall/object as an ally "when determining whether you flank a foe." My reading is that Solo Tactics' conditions happen after you determine that you're flanking. Thus, sneak attack clearly works because you're flanking, but Solo Tactics requires you to actually have a real ally to trigger.
That said, I do think it's ambiguous. I could certainly be wrong here.
If the wall is an ally which allows flanking, then it should allow outflank which has the same conditions -- although I doubt the wall can get attacks of opportunity.
The same thing would apply for precise strike, all the conditions are satisfied.
I do not see anything wrong with what you are working towards. It just so happens that your ally with the teamwork feats (per Press the wall, and Solo Tactics) is an inanimate object, so benefits of those feats that apply to your ally are largely moot, but you would certainly benefit from them.
I would say that the only time that Solo Tactics works in this way is if you are dealing with teamwork feats that involve flanking, however.
My understanding is focused around "when determining whether you flank a foe". That means that for all other intents and purposes that are not explicitly flanking, the inanimate objects do not count as an ally. I see no part of solo tactics that allows you to give inanimate objects feats. I could see an argument for the other side though.
Press to the Wall: Wall helps YOU gain flank.
Outflank: If the wall had outflank, you could improve to +4 (wall does NOT have Outflank)
Solo Tactics: Count 'allies' as having your teamwork feats for the purpose of YOU gaining the benefit of said teamwork feat. This, combined with the above would allow you to outflank your foe by pushing him to the wall. The wall itself does not gain the benefit of the outflank, so the wall would not gain an attack of opportunity from your critical hit.
So, yes, with this combination, 4 feats would allow you to situationaly gain a +4 flanking bonus when pushing an enemy against a wall. That really doesn't sound too powerful.
These two feats would not work together. Solo tactics allows you to treat "allies" as if they had teamwork feats. It seems like the argument is that Press to the Wall turns walls and such into allies. It does not. It allows you to treat walls as if they were allies for the purpose of determining whether you flank a foe. It's a small difference in language but very important. And, it's a distinction that is made in several places in the Pathfinder rules.
Examples:
So, Mithral armor is treated as if it were a step lighter. But only for specific purposes. Outside of those specific purposes, the armor does not fully function as lighter armor, which is why you still need to take the appropriate armor proficiency feat.
A Sawtooth Sabre can be treated as if it were a light weapon for calculating TWF penalties. That doesn't mean it's actually a light weapon. It can't, for instance, be used with the Weapon Finesse feat.
All you need to qualify for Dimensional Dervish is the ability to cast Dimension Door. Shadow Jump allows you to teleport as if by a Dimension Door spell. However, you are not actually able to cast Dimension Door, and so, don't qualify for the feat.
Similarly to these examples, Press to the Wall doesn't actually turn an inanimate object into an ally. Rather it allows you to treat the object as an ally for a specific purpose, and only that one specific purpose:
Benefit: If you are the only character threatening an opponent, you can treat solid, immovable objects that occupy a square (such as columns, tree trunks, and walls) and are adjacent to that opponent as allies threatening the opponent when determining whether you flank the foe.
The feat is very specific about what it is doing. It is not giving you allies. It is allowing you to act as if you had an ally for a specific, defined, purpose.
The feat is very specific about what it is doing. It is not giving you allies. It is allowing you to act as if you had an ally for a specific, defined, purpose.
Yes, and if those teamwork feats also have those same specific, defined purpose, there is no logical reason for excluding them, as both conditions are satisfied.
At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats.
The wall is not the inquisitor's ally. The wall is only the inquisitor's ally for purposes of flanking and absolutely nothing else. You cannot treat the wall as an ally for any other purpose, including treating them as if they possessed teamwork feats (regardless if the teamwork feat is for flanking or any other purpose).
The wall is not the inquisitor's ally. The wall is only the inquisitor's ally...blah blah blah.
Do you see where you are going wrong here? Your first two sentences contradict themselves.
Now, what I'm not saying is that Solo Tactics should be able to be applied for any teamwork feats outside those that affect flanking. Because the wall is only an ally for purposes of flanking, so it should be logically limiting.
There is no qualification of purpose defined in Solo Tactics. An ally is an ally insofar as Solo Tactics is concerned. It matters not how or why.
The wall is not the inquisitor's ally. The wall is only the inquisitor's ally...blah blah blah.
That is the most blatant use of taking a quote out of context I have ever seen.
If you want to houserule that you can apply teamwork feats that effect flanking through that, I think that's pretty fair. I would even be inclined to agree with you. But RAW you can't do that.
Right, solo tactics does not limit what kind of ally it is. But the feats in question do.
If something is treated as an ally, it is an ally. The rules are applied as such.
Now, if the application of the rules state that the scope of being an ally is limited (and in this case it is), then any other rules that fall within the same limited scope should also also apply, logically.
The Press to the wall allows for making the wall an ally for flanking (limited scope).
Solo tactics says that you get to use teamwork feats as if an ally has them too. Solo tactics does not in any way limit the scope or make any test as to determine who or what is an ally, when or why are also untested. There is no limit applied of any kind.
Ergo, since the wall is an ally for a limited scope, then solo tactics should apply for that same limited scope.
Precise strike and out flank both fall under the limited scope as determined by Press to the wall feat. Ergo, they apply.
Now, other teamwork feats that do not involve said limited scope would not apply.
The limit of solo tactics says the target must be an ally. The wall is an ally for the purposes of flanking only.
Just because the abilities would mesh well doesn't mean they work together. Arcane strike is an awful feat to take when you're playing a magus despite it being absolutely perfect flavor-wise.
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If something is treated as an ally, it is an ally. The rules are applied as such.
If something is treated as an ally, it is treated as an ally. That does not make it an ally for any purposes other than determining whether you are flanking a foe. Your assumption that "treated as" implies "is" is flawed.
That said, it is a reasonable house rule.
What about the specific case of teamwork feats that apply to flanking. In the context of flanking the wall is an ally, so would solo tactics allow the wall to apply in that context?
Press to the Wall allows a wall to count as an ally for the limited purpose of determining flanking and for no other purpose. That includes the scope of Solo Tactics. No teamwork feats at all, benefiting flanking nor otherwise, would apply because the wall isn't even an ally so far as Solo Tactics is concerned. Only the rules element of "are you flanking the enemy" can see the wall as being an ally.
If something is treated as an ally, it is an ally. The rules are applied as such.
If something is treated as an ally, it is treated as an ally. That does not make it an ally for any purposes other than determining whether you are flanking a foe. Your assumption that "treated as" implies "is" is flawed.
That said, it is a reasonable house rule.
Being treated as an ally means you are an ally. There is no meaningful distinction in the english language between the two.
Let's say you only give candy to your allies. If you have two poeple, one whom is your ally and the other is a perfect stranger you are going to treat as your ally...guess who gets the candy? Both of them (you should have brought enough for the entire class).
The end result is the same, regardless. You are out two pieces of candy.
...Press to the Wall allows a wall to count as an ally for the limited purpose of determining flanking and for no other purpose.
Solo tactics makes no test at all whatsoever as far as the reasons why something is an ally, all that needs happen is that some condition, any condition places that thing in the category of ally and then Solo Tactics applies. Solo Tactics does not limit itself in any way shape or form.
Now, Press to the Wall, puts the wall on the other side of your opponent in the category of ally, and gives you the bonuses provided by the condition of flanking due to the existence of that ally on the opposite side of the guy you are attacking.
Since you now have the conditions of "ally on the other side" -- then you get to apply your teamwork feats that cover "ally on the other side". Those teamwork feats happens to be outflank and precise strike.
Note that if for some reason, "the other side" no longer applies (a 5' step ruins this entire effect), then the state of being an ally also goes poof, just like if your ally were to move out of flanking position.
The same logic applies to other teamwork feats that allow for "virtual flanking" under other conditions that are different than standard flanking.
Example:
Flanking requires 3 conditions -- you, an ally, and a positional requirement (being on opposite sides of your enemy).
Pack Flanking satisfies gives "positioning" virually while requiring you and an ally. If you had Solo tactics and pack flanking, would you deny the application teamwork feats to your attacks.
No, that would be ludicrous. All the conditions are satisfied for Outflank and Precise Strike -- you, ally, position (virtually)
Press to the Wall satisfies the "ally" condition while requiring the you and positional requirement (opposing side).
Since press to the wall gives you the ally you need for flanking, it also gives you the ally you need for teamwork feats involving flanking. Solo Tactics allows you to actually apply those teamwork feats to yourself when the ally doesn't actually have them.
Teamwork feats should apply through Solo Tactics for the same reason.
This is no different than an Pack Flanking being permitted while having an ability that gives you a virtual position similar to the Flanker ability of the Elocator prestige class from Dreamscarred Press -- Ultimate Psioncs pg. 358). With flanker, you aren't actually adjacent to your animal companion, you can be "virtually" and if you have Solo Tactics along with an animal companion, lo and behold, you are now flanking without having to be adjacent, nor on the opposite sides.
The wonders of RPGs.
What about the specific case of teamwork feats that apply to flanking. In the context of flanking the wall is an ally, so would solo tactics allow the wall to apply in that context?
They are saying no, I'm saying yes. See above.
I would allow it because all the abilities as applied are very synergistic.
Press the wall gives the bonuses for flanking and allows for sneak attacks, the teamwork feats improve those bonuses and a little extra oomph to the precision damage.
I like it just for the idea.
Being treated as an ally means you are an ally. There is no meaningful distinction in the english language between the two.
Let's say you only give candy to your allies. If you have two poeple, one whom is your ally and the other is a perfect stranger you are going to treat as your ally...guess who gets the candy? Both of them (you should have brought enough for the entire class).
The end result is the same, regardless. You are out two pieces of candy.
Once again, you completely ignore the "for the purposes of flanking" section of the feat. You are taking information out of context and thus twisting the wording. Your are cherry picking, your third logical fallacy. Your entire argument hinges on this and completely falls apart without it.
Order of Logic
1) I treat the wall as an ally for the purposes of flanking.
2) I have solo tactics, so my allies are treated as if they had a teamwork feat of my choice.
3) The wall is not my ally outside of the purposes of flanking, which includes treating them as allies with regards to teamwork feats.
It doesn't matter if the synergy sounds like it would be cool, RAW it doesn't work.
If something is treated as an ally, it is an ally. The rules are applied as such.
Explicitly not true. There are even cases where your ENEMY can be treated as an ally for specific reasons. That doesn't make them an ally.
Unwitting Ally (Ex): A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue's next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must succeed at a Bluff check opposed by the opponent's Sense Motive. If the check succeeds, the opponent acts as an ally for the purpose of providing a flank. Whether or not the check succeeds, the rogue cannot use this trick again on the same opponent for the next 24 hours. If the rogue fails the check by 5 or more, she cannot use the unwitting ally ability on any opponent within line of sight of the failed attempt for 24 hours.
There are many things that are treated as X, for the purpose of; that does not make them equal to X, in all regards.
Solo Tactics is looking for allies. PttW does not provide allies, it allows you to treat objects as allies for the purpose of determining flanking.
If allies = X. Solo Tactics is looking for X. It will not find X. Instead it will find X(y), which is very similar, but not equal to X.
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Being treated as an ally means you are an ally. There is no meaningful distinction in the english language between the two.
Really? I think any good spy would disagree with you. I think there is quite a big difference between being an ally and simply treating someone as if they were an ally. But that's beside the point because it doesn't matter if the English language provides meaningful distinction. In this case we are working with language that has been repeated in many PF rules and carries it's own meaning. It is a well established rule trend in PF that: as if X =/= X.
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I like it just for the idea.
Sure, what's not to like. I LOVE the idea of Shadowdancers qualifying for the Dimensional Dervish feat chain with Shadow Jump. That's an excellent reason to house-rule, but doesn't really mean anything in determining RAW/RAI.
"Treated as X" and/or "As if by X", ... etc, are not = to X.
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.
Perfect example of the treated as rule trend. As long as no one beats my Stealth check (and I meet the other requirements for Stealth), I am treated as if I have Total Concealment (invisibility). But guess what, the second someone beats my Stealth check with Perception, my as if Total Concealment swiftly disappears. At which point I am left completely visible.
Solo tactics makes no test at all whatsoever as far as the reasons why something is an ally, all that needs happen is that some condition, any condition places that thing in the category of ally and then Solo Tactics applies. Solo Tactics does not limit itself in any way shape or form.
You're focusing on the wrong feat. Press to the Wall is the side of the equation with the "tests" and "limitations" you are saying don't exist. PttW allows you to treat objects as if they were allies for the purpose of determining flanking. So, when you are looking for a flanking position, this feat allows you to treat objects as allies. However, when Solo Tactics is looking for allies it will see nothing, because those pretend allies don't exist for the purposes of benefiting from class features, or teamwork feats, the Menacing weapon enchantment, or any other bonuses to basic flanking.
So, you'd be perfectly fine allowing the outflank bonus if there was a 4 year old with a wooden stick standing behind the enemy, instead of the solid wall. Both have about the same combat capability, yet the 4 year old would provide the outflank with just Outflank and Solo Tactics, but even with an additional Press to the Wall feat, the wall couldn't?
1) Outflank requires two other people. So you would need two 4 year olds.
2) Yes. They are actually allies as far as the solo tactics ability is concerned.
So, you'd be perfectly fine allowing the outflank bonus if there was a 4 year old with a wooden stick standing behind the enemy, instead of the solid wall. Both have about the same combat capability, yet the 4 year old would provide the outflank with just Outflank and Solo Tactics, but even with an additional Press to the Wall feat, the wall couldn't?
What I am fine with is detailed in my posts above. If you can provide stats for a 4 year old NPC, generated using PF rules, I will be happy to specifically answer your question.
So, you'd be perfectly fine allowing the outflank bonus if there was a 4 year old with a wooden stick standing behind the enemy, instead of the solid wall. Both have about the same combat capability, yet the 4 year old would provide the outflank with just Outflank and Solo Tactics, but even with an additional Press to the Wall feat, the wall couldn't?What I am fine with is detailed in my posts above. If you can provide stats for a 4 year old NPC, generated using PF rules, I will be happy to specifically answer your question.
Stats don't matter to this discussion - Solo Tactics works for any Ally. That could be a goat, and it would work. The contention here is that someone trained in using a wall behind their opponent to aid them in flanking (Press to the Wall), and who is trained in using untrained ally's to their advantage in combat (Solo Tactics), is more able to take advantage of that ally if it is breathing than if it is a solid object, regardless of that ally's actual abilities.
1) Outflank requires two other people. So you would need two 4 year olds.
2) Yes. They are actually allies as far as the solo tactics ability is concerned.
Outflank does NOT require two other people. Outflank requires one ally who also has Outflank.
Stats don't matter to this discussion - Solo Tactics works for any Ally. That could be a goat, and it would work. The contention here is that someone trained in using a wall behind their opponent to aid them in flanking (Press to the Wall), and who is trained in using untrained ally's to their advantage in combat (Solo Tactics), is more able to take advantage of that ally if it is breathing than if it is a solid object, regardless of that ally's actual abilities.
You're right, stats don't matter. That was his point. Any ally will work. We're not saying the wall doesn't have stats. We're saying the wall is not an ally for any purpose other than flanking. Being treated as an ally for the purposes of solo tactics is not flanking. If you allow solo tactics to work with walls, then you allow stealth synergy to work with walls. My stealth check is now always a nat 20 because I'm going to treat every single inanimate object in sight as an ally and have every single one of them roll a stealth till one of them gets a nat 20.
Also, read the bolded part again. That is where the conversation should end. They use the wall for purposes of flanking, they do not use the wall as an ally.
Outflank does NOT require two other people. Outflank requires one ally who also has Outflank.1) Outflank requires two other people. So you would need two 4 year olds.
2) Yes. They are actually allies as far as the solo tactics ability is concerned.
Oh I was confusing it with gang up. Regardless, the point remains the same.
I would say that if we were talking about a cavalier here, training his allies how to work together using his tactician ability, then certainly, the wall could not aid him in outflanking an opponent. However, we are talking about Solo Tactics here. Solo Tactics is just that, using pretty much anyone to pull off an advanced teamwork feat, by one's self (solo). That's why solo tactics doesn't grant the benefit to the baboon you're using, they have to literally put nothing into this activity. Walls can do that just as well as they can.
Quint, you are catastrophically missing the point.Solo Tactics works on allies. Is the wall an ally? No. Solo Tactics does not work on walls.
No, Solo Tactics does NOT work on other allies. It allows the Inquisitor to use teamwork feats when the normal conditions for teamwork feats (i.e. allies not having the same teamwork feats) do not apply, as long as he has an ally within 30'. Note that Solo Tactics expressly does not define why something is an ally. It is applicable regardless of *why* the ally exists.
It is an ability that is simply a enhancement of the training of the inquisitor, no more no less.
It expressly says that the other allies do NOT gain the benefits of said teamwork feats.
This is different than say Dreamcarred's Tactician's ability to actually share teamwork feats to the effect of allowing the ally the benefits of the teamwork feat -- thus satisfying the requirement of the teamwork feat in a different way.
Solo tactics simply allows the Inquisitor to benefit from the teamwork feat when his allies don't actually have it.
Stats don't matter to this discussion - Solo Tactics works for any Ally. That could be a goat, and it would work. The contention here is that someone trained in using a wall behind their opponent to aid them in flanking (Press to the Wall), and who is trained in using untrained ally's to their advantage in combat (Solo Tactics), is more able to take advantage of that ally if it is breathing than if it is a solid object, regardless of that ally's actual abilities.So, you'd be perfectly fine allowing the outflank bonus if there was a 4 year old with a wooden stick standing behind the enemy, instead of the solid wall. Both have about the same combat capability, yet the 4 year old would provide the outflank with just Outflank and Solo Tactics, but even with an additional Press to the Wall feat, the wall couldn't?What I am fine with is detailed in my posts above. If you can provide stats for a 4 year old NPC, generated using PF rules, I will be happy to specifically answer your question.
Bing...GO!
There is nothing here that does anything to the wall. It simply enhances the attacker's abilities according to a very specific set of circumstances.
For a very large feat investment and a 3 level dip in Inquisitor.
Let's take a step back and examine it from another direction.
If the inquisitor was beside a wall and he gains +1 to all saves when by allies would he get +1 to his saves?
No. The wall is no ally. Not as far as solo tactics is concerned.
Press is a great trick. But this combo doesn't work.
This is expressly NOT what we are saying.
We are saying that as long as the conditions for Press to the Wall are satisfied, and because Press to the Wall turns said wall into an ally for flanking, thus satisfying the conditions for flanking, he now has the ally within 30' that satisfies the conditions for Solo Tacitics to apply, thus allowing the use of teamwork feats that also involve flanking.
What doesn't happen is the combination does not allow generic non-flanking teamwork feats to apply at all whatsoever.
The wall is not an ally for any purpose other than flanking. That includes treating them as an ally for the purposes of solo tactics. It is irrelevant that you want to use a flanking teamwork feat, because the wall is not your ally.
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Press to the Wall is like Solo Flanking.
Solo tactics: you can act like allies have Teamwork feats even though they actually don't.
Press to the Wall: you can act like you have an ally flanking with you even though you actually don't.
Those two effects don't, by the rules, stack with each other for greater effect.
Press to the Wall is like Solo Flanking.
Solo tactics: you can act like allies have Teamwork feats even though they actually don't.
Press to the Wall: you can act like you have an ally flanking with you even though you actually don't.
Those two effects don't, by the rules, stack with each other for greater effect.
If those teamwork feats involve flanking, they do.
They are designed to stack under their normal circumstances (the teamwork feats involving flanking), so they should logically stack here because the combination of Press to the Walls and Solo Tactics fulfills all the needed requirements for those two teamwork feats to apply.
Teamwork feats grant large bonuses, but they only function under specific circumstances. In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield. Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met.
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There. Black and white RAW.
At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the inquisitor to receive the listed bonus.Teamwork feats grant large bonuses, but they only function under specific circumstances. In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield. Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met.
Note that allies who are paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise unable to act do not count for the purposes of these feats.
+1
Stats don't matter to this discussion - Solo Tactics works for any Ally.So, you'd be perfectly fine allowing the outflank bonus if there was a 4 year old with a wooden stick standing behind the enemy, instead of the solid wall. Both have about the same combat capability, yet the 4 year old would provide the outflank with just Outflank and Solo Tactics, but even with an additional Press to the Wall feat, the wall couldn't?What I am fine with is detailed in my posts above. If you can provide stats for a 4 year old NPC, generated using PF rules, I will be happy to specifically answer your question.
Specific stats don't matter, but RULES do matter in a RULES QUESTIONS thread. I thought that would be fairly apparent. Since, it's not; my point was this: It seems very much, like you are trying to make a detailed, RAW based, argument seem absurd by comparing it to an absurd scenario involving a 4 year old combatant. My answer was challenging you to actually back your absurd scenario with RAW, because I know that you can't. In a RULES QUESTIONS thread, it's important to be able to back your challenges, and interpretations, with actual Pathfinder Rules. I have been very detailed about posting mine, and I've provided many similar RAW examples. But instead of a logical argument, what I get back is a silly argument of absurdity that cannot even be supported by RAW.
That could be a goat, and it would work.
Yes, a GOAT could be a combatant, and hence an ally; it could be a familiar. However, your absurd 4 year old combatant scenario is not supported in RAW, so not worth answering.
Seriously guys, let's keep the tone civil.
Seriously guys, let's keep the tone civil.
We're using formatting for emphasis, not to imitate shouting. I've been in a lot of rule disagreements and this one has been extremely civil so far, and I have great respect for the other side of the argument due to how calm the talk has been.
We're using formatting for emphasis, not to imitate shouting. I've been in a lot of rule disagreements and this one has been extremely civil so far, and I have great respect for the other side of the argument due to how calm the talk has been.
Seriously guys, let's keep the tone civil.
Wasn't sure, sorry for the intrusion.
There. Black and white RAW.Teamwork feats grant large bonuses, but they only function under specific circumstances. In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield. Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met.
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That is the basic rule for teamwork feats generically, as unmodified by Solo tactics.
Solo tactics takes away the need for the ally to possess the teamwork feat at all, it's most basic requirement. So the ability to act is pretty much immaterial.
Similarly, the Push to the Wall feat allows for flanking without the wall needing to be able to threaten the opponent as well.