Do martial characters really need better things?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
There is no way on Earth his robe isn't magical though. It's got at least some sort of self-regeneration magic on it. Given the amount of crap he goes through, there's no other explanation for how he's still wearing the same one after all this time.

He's stuck in the future. His robe might be designed to repair itself.

Not so for his sandals though.


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Or any hat he's wearing. Or anything the Scotsman is near..


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Insain Dragoon wrote:
Azraiel wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
All he has is an +1 Adamantine Aku bane Katana.
It could be Excalibur, with or without the scabbard, and it wouldn't make him any less badass, or less of a "pure" magic-is-fer-pussies martial. An awesome magical sword is always an acceptable accoutrement!
What I meant is that in compared to Pathfinder Martials he generally accomplishes a lot more with a lot less. We're all collecting magical trinkets and artifacts like it's Pokemon, but Jack does it all with just a magic sword and a robe.

Or even JUST a fundoshi at times.


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Bare Buttcheeks are the strongest armor known or unknown to man.


I've started up like 5 home games in the last 2 years (college town) and every time someone has looked at the classes and been. I want ROGUE! And then is super upset that it doesn't do what they want, or as much as the other classes.

One guy in a higher level campaign with hero points super stats and a bonus celestial template had their rogue die basically every session. I mean the first few sessions he survived, but as we kept going he died every time. And this rogue was meant to work with this inquisitor, taking teamwork feats and totally duo teaming it up and it would work sometimes but... Dead every time. Different things too, wasn't sneaky enough, was but didn't see the enemies in ambush, (hard to be a scout if you can't do both REALLY well) couldn't sneak attack and stuck doing 1d6 damage, fort saves, will saves. Pretty much all the things in the rogue sucks thread. At first he was okay with it, but then as it happened so often he really got annoyed, as nothing he did could keep up with the other classes.

Thing is the rogue and martial and core monk don't live up to what flavor they give off as being able to do. Even in a no magic campaigns they'd still struggle. But the new people are convinced that a Rogue has to be able to be a good Rogue character, it's in the name!


Chess Pwn wrote:

I've started up like 5 home games in the last 2 years (college town) and every time someone has looked at the classes and been. I want ROGUE! And then is super upset that it doesn't do what they want, or as much as the other classes.

One guy in a higher level campaign with hero points super stats and a bonus celestial template had their rogue die basically every session. I mean the first few sessions he survived, but as we kept going he died every time. And this rogue was meant to work with this inquisitor, taking teamwork feats and totally duo teaming it up and it would work sometimes but... Dead every time. Different things too, wasn't sneaky enough, was but didn't see the enemies in ambush, (hard to be a scout if you can't do both REALLY well) couldn't sneak attack and stuck doing 1d6 damage, fort saves, will saves. Pretty much all the things in the rogue sucks thread. At first he was okay with it, but then as it happened so often he really got annoyed, as nothing he did could keep up with the other classes.

Thing is the rogue and martial and core monk don't live up to what flavor they give off as being able to do. Even in a no magic campaigns they'd still struggle. But the new people are convinced that a Rogue has to be able to be a good Rogue character, it's in the name!

To be fair, I almost always see a rogue in the party no matter what.

But yes, between vanilla Rogue, Monk and Fighter I'm not sure what happened.

Fighter's exclusive feats are just straight bonuses for 4 feats unless you want to go crit fishing at late levels. Weapon Training 2-4 are borderline useless because of course you want to always use the weapon you have a full bonus to. But of course with you get straight numerical bonuses instead of abilities that y'know, DO something. Bravery doesn't actually matter when it needs to due to low will save and no incentive to up Wis.

Rogue has an okay-ish chassis but it's talents, the thing that could have made the class are more often than not a joke. 1 per day abilities is NOT cool for a 3/4 class with no spells.

Monk promises a lot of abilities but unless you have a phd in classbuilding-fu and access to a ton of archetypes then you mostly get a class with a million abilities that do nothing, leading to a ton of disappointment. Its probably the best class out of the bunch because it can does have good saves and the ability to move up and tag a caster with a stunning fist easily. If Rogue and Fighter were efficient caster killers despite not having the raw power of spells they'd get as many defenders and respect as Monks but that just doesn't happen.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

For the people saying that no writer ever randomizes results for a story he gets published, I would question that.

A random element of the unknown, to the right type of writer [such as myself] can be a great motivator for very interesting and dynamic stories which occasionally buck established tropes in fascinating ways.

While I agree the VAST majority of published works were written entirely from the author's mind, I can imagine a few outliers that were crafted from dice.

Honestly I'm of the belief that Game of Thrones is actually a campaign being played and adjusted rather just written as main characters seem to have too frequent deaths from frivolous things to be intentionally written that way...

I also know that Brent Weeks is a fan of tabletop to the point he actually made an interactive adventure featuring his "Night Angel" trilogy protagonists for his book tour for the third book from the Lightbringer "trilogy"... and I believe at the time he mentioned rolling dice when he gets stuck(though Idr exact words or the validity of that statement so don't quote me on that).


Repeating my mantra, 20 levels is the devil.
If Pathfinder was broken into two separate books, into high and low level, there would be no problems.
Like how 40k rpg books did.


???? No problems would be solved I think? All the same issues would be around.

I would do wholesale spell netfs like I did in a thread a while ago.

I might buff martials but with reasonable spells they are mostly fine.


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CWheezy wrote:
???? No problems would be solved I think? All the same issues would be around.

I think the idea is to split the game into the lower level part where "realistic" fighters and rogues belong, with casters restricted more than they are now at those levels; and a higher level part where the casters get their full abilities and characters who aren't spell-hurlers get to pick from the whole range of mythical abilities that have been suggested.

It runs into the problem of the people who demand twenty levels of anime caster-man and twenty levels of ordinary bloke in the same game and refuse to tolerate anything else, of course.


CWheezy wrote:
I might buff martials but with reasonable spells they are mostly fine.

Good god no.

Magic is rather crazy, but martials are aweful by modern gaming standards.


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As Bluenose said.
40k as setting is even more ridiculous than Golarion, by huge bounds. Hell, it is a brand that was built on BIGGER, DARKER, EDGIER than competition.
Yet still, playing the bottom level scum works just as well as playing actual space marines. While lot of people are attracted to the bolters, warp demons and fighting with plasma cannons, there is also something for those who just want to survive at the bottom of a scum hive, beating mutated freaks with rusty pipes and makeshift shotguns.

It is not like Pathfinder also doesn't love to have its own "grimdark" places and happenings, Pathfinder also wants to play the same game of giving players those "grounded" scenarios where you just try to survive being in very s%~&ty situation, without the fantastic of fantasy. Too bad they rarely work because the game hardly exists at lvl 1.


Envall wrote:
the game hardly exists at lvl 1.

Can you please explain this comment for me Envall? What exactly do you mean by that?

As a note, although it defies standard expectations you can totally pick a level and run an entire campaign at that level without regard for EXP. I've done it many times with excellent results, you just need buyin from your players so they don't feel cheated.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Azraiel wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
All he has is an +1 Adamantine Aku bane Katana.
It could be Excalibur, with or without the scabbard, and it wouldn't make him any less badass, or less of a "pure" magic-is-fer-pussies martial. An awesome magical sword is always an acceptable accoutrement!
What I meant is that in compared to Pathfinder Martials he generally accomplishes a lot more with a lot less. We're all collecting magical trinkets and artifacts like it's Pokemon, but Jack does it all with just a magic sword and a robe.

Yeah, I got that, no worries. What I was getting at was that having a cool magic sword isn't "cheating" at being a pure martial. Rather that acquiring an important weapon (magic or not) is almost an expected part of your average martial hero's journey.


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kyrt-ryder wrote:

Steve: I'll jump in, hit his central neck with a clothesline, bounce off the ropes and drive my knee into him while he's still down and finish him with a Stone Cold Stunner.

Ally: Or I could summon a horde of angels.

How did I miss this reference?!

I would give you more than one +1 if I could, kyrt-ryder.


Rhedyn wrote:


3)Plenty of magic item crafting time. Let's pretend that this isn't truly variable in campaigns and that every pally and ranger is just crafting pearls of power or other gear until their wealth is double wbl.
D20PFSRD wrote:


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night

How much time does one really need? If you CAN craft, and AREN'T crafting, it's generally because you don't know the rule or you don't want to, not because you cannot.


Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:


3)Plenty of magic item crafting time. Let's pretend that this isn't truly variable in campaigns and that every pally and ranger is just crafting pearls of power or other gear until their wealth is double wbl.
D20PFSRD wrote:


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night
How much time does one really need? If you CAN craft, and AREN'T crafting, it's generally because you don't know the rule or you don't want to, not because you cannot.

Or because you're going up levels faster than you can spend your money at 2 hours a day.


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thejeff wrote:
Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:


3)Plenty of magic item crafting time. Let's pretend that this isn't truly variable in campaigns and that every pally and ranger is just crafting pearls of power or other gear until their wealth is double wbl.
D20PFSRD wrote:


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night
How much time does one really need? If you CAN craft, and AREN'T crafting, it's generally because you don't know the rule or you don't want to, not because you cannot.

Or because you're going up levels faster than you can spend your money at 2 hours a day.

Rushed crafting is a thing and if you're going up a level every 2-4 days of game time, your campaign is probably far more outside the norm than people think my games are. You'd be 20th level in 1.3-2.5 months of game-time.

EDIT: And again, when upgrading your primary items the process is faster because you only need to make up the difference. So while crafting a +5 cloak of resistance from scratch may take 25 days (13 days by rushing it), upgrading it looks more like...

1. Create cloak+1 for 500 gp and 1 day.
2. Upgrade cloak+1 to cloak+2 for 1,500 gp and 3 days.
3. Upgrade cloak+2 to cloak+3 for 2,500 gp and 5 days.
4. Upgrade cloak+3 to cloak+4 for 3,500 gp and 7 days.
5. Upgrade cloak+4 to cloak+5 for 4,500 gp and 9 days.

This is assuming no rushed crafting but also not while adventuring.
If you're adventuring but not rushing, multiply the required time by 4.
If you're adventuring but rushing, multiply the required time by 2.
If you're not adventuring but not rushing, leave as is.
If you're not adventuring and rushing, cut required days in half.


thejeff wrote:
Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:


3)Plenty of magic item crafting time. Let's pretend that this isn't truly variable in campaigns and that every pally and ranger is just crafting pearls of power or other gear until their wealth is double wbl.
D20PFSRD wrote:


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night
How much time does one really need? If you CAN craft, and AREN'T crafting, it's generally because you don't know the rule or you don't want to, not because you cannot.

Or because you're going up levels faster than you can spend your money at 2 hours a day.

I'll grant that this is theoretically possible, but I am finding it difficult to imagine it actually happening outside of some odd circumstances.

At 13-ish encounters per day, each utilizing some fraction of daily resources (suggested 25%), you are more or less obligated to take 3 or 4 days per level. You're getting at least a little crafting done in that time if you want. Probably not to your full capacity, but a little.


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Zilvar2k11 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Zilvar2k11 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:


3)Plenty of magic item crafting time. Let's pretend that this isn't truly variable in campaigns and that every pally and ranger is just crafting pearls of power or other gear until their wealth is double wbl.
D20PFSRD wrote:


If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night
How much time does one really need? If you CAN craft, and AREN'T crafting, it's generally because you don't know the rule or you don't want to, not because you cannot.

Or because you're going up levels faster than you can spend your money at 2 hours a day.

I'll grant that this is theoretically possible, but I am finding it difficult to imagine it actually happening outside of some odd circumstances.

At 13-ish encounters per day, each utilizing some fraction of daily resources (suggested 25%), you are more or less obligated to take 3 or 4 days per level. You're getting at least a little crafting done in that time if you want. Probably not to your full capacity, but a little.

And that's assuming the fast XP track.

For the standard medium track it takes like 20 equal-CR encounters to bump up a level.

It can take tons more if using the slow-track.

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