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Actually, now that I think about it wouldn't Samurai Jack be the poster boy for what we want out of a non-magical Martial?
-Only thing Magical about him is that he owns a +5 Aku Bane Adamantine Katana
-Can take a ridiculous amount of punishment
-Has powerful leadership, speaking, and intimidating skills
-Can leap several hundred feat
-Has a combat insight bordering on precognition
-Has combat skills adaptable to any combat situation
-Is so good at sneaking he may as well be invisible
Next thread: Can Martial Characters be more like Samurai Jack?
I am pretty sure characters stop being normal mortals around level 6. That's around where even skills let you surpass human limits to a large extent. That is when you can jump farther than any human can, regularly.
Woah man, no need to make this personal. If someone else's unimportant opinion offends you that much maybe you should step away from the thread.
Just remembered another good example was Guts from Berserk until he got some supernatural powers.
I've never considered high level characters to still be 'human.'
Neither do I. The important question here is not the "if" of their (in)humanity, but the "why". If that "why" is defined as they-just-are-shut-up, then I would submit that superficial is about the nicest word one might use to describe it.
@Dragoon: I don't know where you get the idea that I am offended. My disdain for certain tropes is primarily an aesthetic objection, not a moral crusade.
Woah man, no need to make this personal. If someone else's unimportant opinion offends you that much maybe you should step away from the thread.
Just remembered another good example was Guts from Berserk until he got some supernatural powers.
It's also when the series started to suck
The closest thing to supernatural powers Guts got was a Magic Sword and Magic Armor.
That's it.
Other than that Guts is nothing more than the culmination of his experiences. A pure badass lightning bruiser who makes every other giant sword wielder look like an amateur.
There is a theory which I subscribe to that after Guts recieved his mark, he stopped being fully human. Similar to how his sword became magically cursed, Guts himself accumulated a curse.
There is a theory which I subscribe to that after Guts recieved his mark, he stopped being fully human. Similar to how his sword became magically cursed, Guts himself accumulated a curse.The closest thing to supernatural powers Guts got was a Magic Sword and Magic Armor.
That's it.
Other than that Guts is nothing more than the culmination of his experiences. A pure badass lightning bruiser who makes every other giant sword wielder look like an amateur.
The mark weakens him and attracts demons. His prosthesis are not as good as his limbs. Putting tech in the arm just compensates a little for the lack of a hand.
Guts survives regardless of handicapps and odds. The armor he eventually gets is a double edge sword and he only really used it because of the soul wound he got after slaying his first god severely weakened him
And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).What build gives you a move speed of 300'?Well, you said 200 ft/sec. So that's 1200 feet per round.
The fastest I can get is 990 feet in one round - without magic.
So not quite up to speed as I originally thought. But pretty darn close! That guy is moving at 165 ft/sec. Or 112.5 mph. Usain Bolt hit around around 23-24 mph as the fastest human.
Someone could probably build a faster guy than me.
Elf. Martial Artist Monk 14. (w/ FCB). Cleric 1 (travel domain). Oracle 1 (Cinder Dance). Barbarian 4 (rage powers: swift foot, sprint). 10 fleet feats. Total movement = 165 with a x6 sprint = 990 ft in one round. And none of these speed bonuses are magical.
Edit: drop the cleric or oracle and add one monk level. That nets us an additional 5 feet of movement. So 170 x 6 = 1020 ft in one round. Without magic. Add in magic (a single first level spell: expeditious retreat) for a 30' bonus and we're now at the same speed as the arrow.
Edit 2: expiditious retreat and monk movement don't stack. :( Both are enhancement bonuses. Ah well.
First, congratulations on putting together a build with such high move speed. Sprint from Barbarian adds a lot (50%), but even without it, that's a ridiculously fast move speed. You can run a ~32 second mile, or a ~14 minute marathon (PF rules only say you can't run for "an extended period of time." I think we can make a case that 14 minutes is not "extended" so it's clearly RAW).
Second, it's a corner case where you've spent almost all of your resources (including all of your feats) to boost a single statistic (move speed while running). I don't believe this character would be viable at high level for much more than a super-messenger boy.
To me, though, this is (once again) a case where Paizo does not expect players to go and cherry pick through all of their published resources to build a character. It's a design failure on their part, and clever building on your part. I don't believe it at all indicates that the designers think characters should be able to move at this speed.
** Also, nit picking, but two of your resources (Cleric Domain and Oracle Revelation) come from divine sources. I know, I know, they're not tagged (Su) or (Sp), so they must be mundane, but ... seriously, they're from supernatural sources.
On the subject of speed demons, one of my favorite 3.5 characters was a Lolth-touched Mineral Warrior Dwarf Rokugan Ninja.
Heh...this almost sounds like a parody of TRICKED OUT 3.5 BUILD MAN!1!, with more titles than a member of the House of Lords. I like it.
And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).What build gives you a move speed of 300'?Well, you said 200 ft/sec. So that's 1200 feet per round.
The fastest I can get is 990 feet in one round - without magic.
So not quite up to speed as I originally thought. But pretty darn close! That guy is moving at 165 ft/sec. Or 112.5 mph. Usain Bolt hit around around 23-24 mph as the fastest human.
Someone could probably build a faster guy than me.
Elf. Martial Artist Monk 14. (w/ FCB). Cleric 1 (travel domain). Oracle 1 (Cinder Dance). Barbarian 4 (rage powers: swift foot, sprint). 10 fleet feats. Total movement = 165 with a x6 sprint = 990 ft in one round. And none of these speed bonuses are magical.
Edit: drop the cleric or oracle and add one monk level. That nets us an additional 5 feet of movement. So 170 x 6 = 1020 ft in one round. Without magic. Add in magic (a single first level spell: expeditious retreat) for a 30' bonus and we're now at the same speed as the arrow.
Edit 2: expiditious retreat and monk movement don't stack. :( Both are enhancement bonuses. Ah well.
First, congratulations on putting together a build with such high move speed. Sprint from Barbarian adds a lot (50%), but even without it, that's a ridiculously fast move speed. You can run a ~32 second mile, or a ~14 minute marathon (PF rules only say you can't run for "an extended period of time." I think we can make a case that 14 minutes is not "extended" so it's clearly RAW).
Second, it's a corner case where you've spent almost all of your resources (including all of your feats) to boost a single statistic (move speed while running). I don't believe this character would be viable at high level for much more than a super-messenger boy.
To me, though, this is (once again) a case where Paizo does not expect players to go and cherry pick through all of their...
Thanks!
I agree with you; I just also think that high level martials should get extraordinary abilities (which could be construed as bordering on the magical). For example, Bladed Dash should be something a martial character could do; it should not be a spell. To me, that would be a great extraordinary ability!
And to your nit-pick; I thought the same thing. I was debating whether or not to include it, but Cinder Dance is explicitly an Ex ability. :)
And really, that was only three books: CRB, APG, and UC (for sprint rage power).
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There was even an article where the 4th Ed devs did admit that they did base elements of the character mechanics on MMORPG mechanics. Just google it, shouldn't be hard to find.I'm sorry but, 4th ed is nothing like "MMO" games, there are fundamental design differences. It's not even similar to any "MMORPG" games that are out there. I'd say that any edition of D&D and most other pen&paper RPGs are more like 4th ed than any "MMO" game. I think you just need to get over your hate for young people and their "MMO" games and motorcycles and their punk-rock music and their "My Little Pony" and their what not. Even when I'm not a fan of MMORPGs, I can't really say "people didn't like it", so 4th ed would probably be better off if it was more "MMORPG"-esq.I dunno...I also get a video-gamey feel from the daily/encounter/at-will breakdown of abilities in 4th ed. It feels like a very contrived and artificial way to achieve game balance which is ultimately quite similar in its execution to games like Diablo.
I think 4th ed. is a perfect example of designers taking the easy way out in terms of game balance. Balancing limited-use magic with at-will martial abilities is hard, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done.
And the same MMOs based most of their mechanics on RPGs, so it's just going back through the filter of mass playtesting.
I myself have studied some of the mechanics of MMO gameplay where it was succeeding at things that tabletop RPGs were failing at and the information was quite valuable. There is a lot of things that tabletop RPGs can pull from games like World of Warcraft and be better for it.
The thing is, people get the wrong idea (out of sheer ignorance it seems as many of the people I've met who criticize RPGs based on WoW also don't know much about WoW or where WoW works) as to what elements are desirable. It's not about things like pickup groups, color-coded items (hmmm, there's an idea), or whatever. It's just about what works.
In WoW, warriors make a transition from the mundane to the majestic. At lower levels, warriors in wow can do things like...
1. Cause a wound with severe bleeding that deals damage over time.
2. Hit someone with their shield and daze them.
3. Wound their legs to cripple their movement.
4. Parry an attack and counter it.
At high levels, warriors in wow can do things like...
0. Everything the low levels did but better.
1. Hit the ground so hard that it produces a shockwave that hurts and stuns foes.
2. Wield two-handed weapons in a single hand.
3. Leap into a crowd of enemies and turn into a tornado of blades that is unstoppable by man or magic.
4. Spank incoming spells back at their caster with their shield.
5. Dispel magical auras on a creature by striking with their shield.
6. Throw their weapon at an enemy and shatter their protective spells.
7. Leap through the air and crash into enemies stunning them in an AoE.
8. Become the avatar of a god of war.
9. Shout a roar that causes enemies to wet themselves and run screaming.
10. Charge around the battlefield rapidly and over great distances, crashing into enemies, and even from in the air, allowing you to look like you're pseudo-flying.
All things that are appropriate for high level heroes, that is - so far beyond divorced from the mundane realities of warriors - should probably be able to do. Since they do so much more than just hit people for some damage they can be very strong in team play even against enemies who are saturated in magical abilities.
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One factor to all of this is that bigger numbers are pointless if the enimies numbers also get bigger.
This guts the point behind most martial class features.
Weapon training is garbage because you need it to hit things. Power attack is garbage because you have to use it. Once a Paladin can pass 95% of saves, further boost are pointless.
I just wanted to point out a few things.
1. Martials are usually sitting at between +5% to +25% accuracy by virtue of class when compared to their 3/4 competitors. This is prior to buffs or class features (with most martials having up to an additional +30% to even +70% hit chance abilities) which gives them an edge and makes them slightly better buff targets in many cases (Paladins w/ Divine Power are really awesome for example).
2. Power Attack is optional. IMHO, it's sweetest spot is actually 3rd-10th level. At 1st level, enemy HP is usually too low to matter and to-hit modifiers are in high demand. At 3rd level and fourth level the damage boost is significant for the types of foes you're facing and AC hasn't budged much from 1st level (most enemies in this theater have ACs around 16, and NPCs can't afford magic armor or even full-plate yet). However, as iterative attacks come online, the extra accuracy afforded by BAB, class features, and buffs, combined with damage bonuses from ability scores (which get up to around 30 easily enough at high levels), class features, and enhancement bonuses, makes many situations more attractive to the guy not using Power Attack (the penalty to hit keeps increasing) as it's very possible to hit with most if not all of your iterative attacks later on.
Let's take a well built Ranger for example. By around 16th level, our ranger has a +16/+11/+6/+1. He's probably sitting at around a 28-30 Strength score (+27/+18/+13/+8). He's sporting a +3 weapon (+30/+21/+16/+11). Boots of Speed and Heroism bring him to +33/+33/+24/+19/+14. He can drop instant enemy to bring him to +41/+41/+32/+27/+22 and if he really needs to, Quarry for +43/+43/+34/+29/+24 and auto-confirming critical threats.
Against a 34 AC foe (typical naked AC for CR 19 enemy), he has the following chances to hit: 95%(150%)/95%(150%)/95%(105%)/80%/60%. Power Attack gives him a -25% chance to hit for +15 damage, bringing his hit-% to 95%(125%)/95%(125%)/80%/55%/35%. Furious Focus doesn't help 'cause you're hit-% capped on the first attack either way. Now the +15 from PA might make up for the lost hits but probably not, because at this point we're looking at +24 static damage (Str + Enhancement + Favored Enemy) so hitting with your three iterative attacks is netting you another +75 damage (assuming you roll nothing but 1s on a d8).
The higher your enemy's AC scales the worse PA is for you (unless your to-hit % is so bad that you're hit capped at 5%, then PA all you can). This is against an unbuffed enemy. A pit fiend (who sports a naked AC of 42 before magic items) has little to fear from the power-attacking ranger by comparison to the non-PA ranger (as the PA ranger's DPR is going to suffer from it). The more damage per hit you can push the less PA's bonus damage helps (I'm being pretty generous in assuming only a +3 weapon as rangers can make their own magic weapons and having a golfbag of bane weapons and having your party's wizard cast greater magic weapon on them is not hard).
PA is good in certain situations. It is very far from required and is actually bad for most 3/4 classes who are relying on things like divine power to keep their hit/damage relevant.
3. Paladins reaching 95% saves and still getting more save potential is not wasted. In further insulates them from save-bombing. Having a 150% chance to save capped at 95% means you still get to laugh at the wizards using limited wish to give you a -45% chance to save. Similarly, when your enemies coordinate their debuffs, it means that you will still be sitting at 75% or better when everyone else would have gone from 95% to "roll a 20 or die".
Other than those little tidbits, carry on. :)
PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.
Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.
His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
Speed is usually abstracted, hence my cat and leopard example. That being the case, I'd have his speed at 30 with the run feat.
Speed is usually abstracted, hence my cat and leopard example. That being the case, I'd have his speed at 30 with the run feat.His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
Not according to the math. Usane bolt would have to be a level 3 commoner in PF with fleet, fleet, and run.
Not according to the math. Usane bolt would have to be a level 3 commoner in PF with fleet, fleet, and run.Speed is usually abstracted, hence my cat and leopard example. That being the case, I'd have his speed at 30 with the run feat.His speed per move action is 40ft with the run feet.Usane Bolt can run 200ft per round. Making his move action either 50ft or 40ft. Being 6 times faster than him is still well within the realm of possible.Honestly, he'd probably have a 30 speed, as well with probably the run feat. If cats and leopards have a speed of 30, then I don't see a reason why he shouldn't, too.
Yes, but in game where things are abstracted and not absolute that might not be the case. Leopards can run 35+ mph, but still have 30 speed and high dex. Another example is the lightning stance feat, where you run so fast that you have 50% concealment. Even with concealment from running, you still have 30 land speed, but you still have to meet a 17 dex requirement. So it would seem speed can be represented through dexterity, too, because speed is another abstraction.
Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.
And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.
Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.
All of which are incredibly high priced in the game itself.
==Aelryinth
Well the solution then is to make combat feats get unrealistic or give martials a little bit of magic. I'm trying out both over on the homebrew forums.
Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.
And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.
Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.
All of which are incredibly high priced in the game itself.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, but if your talking about people that can do that sort of thing those are the rules they would fall into. So Spider-Man would likely have 32 strength plus the mythic ability. They wouldn't just give him a whopping 52. Just like jumping very high, covered by a mythic ability, as they wouldn't give him +400 on acrobatics.
As for hand eye coordination and seeing bullets, monks can catch bullets at like level 2. As for running fast, there's a feat that allows you to have 50% concealment while running. IDK how fast that translates to, but being nearly invisible while running sounds pretty fast.
You're missing the point Sauce.
The Mythic rules were a mistake. They kind of sort of bring martials up to roughly where they should be in the normal rules [barring a few outlier abilities that don't belong, and a few generic 'mythic crushes nonmythic just because' rules] but then they take casters up to 11.
I agree those rules should be normal for martial characters, but since it's not the case the mythic rules is where many of those Marvel characters would fall into. I was just bringing that up since that's how the game in its current state would handle it.
I agree those rules should be normal for martial characters, but since it's not the case the mythic rules is where many of those Marvel characters would fall into. I was just bringing that up since that's how the game in its current state would handle it.You're missing the point Sauce.
The Mythic rules were a mistake. They kind of sort of bring martials up to roughly where they should be in the normal rules [barring a few outlier abilities that don't belong, and a few generic 'mythic crushes nonmythic just because' rules] but then they take casters up to 11.
I'd have to agree considering how difficult it is to kill a marvel character. :)
Except there's no indication that Spider-man has special strength for lifting things. He punches things really hard too. Every game...Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.
And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.
Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.
Yeah, but if your talking about people that can do that sort of thing those are the rules they would fall into. So Spider-Man would likely have 32 strength plus the mythic ability. They wouldn't just give him a whopping 52. Just like jumping very high, covered by a mythic ability, as they wouldn't give him +400 on acrobatics.
As for hand eye coordination and seeing bullets, monks can catch bullets at like level 2. As for running fast, there's a feat that allows you to have 50% concealment while running. IDK how fast that translates to, but being nearly invisible while running sounds pretty fast.
Just about any martial has the ability to hit way harder than their strength normally allows because of modifiers and feats.
I'd have to agree considering how difficult it is to kill a marvel character. :)I agree those rules should be normal for martial characters, but since it's not the case the mythic rules is where many of those Marvel characters would fall into. I was just bringing that up since that's how the game in its current state would handle it.You're missing the point Sauce.
The Mythic rules were a mistake. They kind of sort of bring martials up to roughly where they should be in the normal rules [barring a few outlier abilities that don't belong, and a few generic 'mythic crushes nonmythic just because' rules] but then they take casters up to 11.
If we're sticking to that, concept-wise physical prowess doesn't fall into super-power mode unless mythic, then what ways would be acceptable for 'martials getting nice things'? Outlandish techniques? Creating abilities for strength levels of a person that can lift more than the world's record? I admit that Spider-man level prowess is kind of out there for a guy to just get but what about Captain America, who technically doesn't have super strength? What about minor magic or alchemical tools?
Captain America can basically be built in Pathfinder already.
The problem is he doesn't fully represent Cap's prowess 100% until the mid teens or above, when Capatain America isn't over level 8.
EDIT: that, and Cap has a will of freaking Iron when every martial in Pathfinder is an enchanter's wet dream.
Superficially he can be made but he is much more capable than a Cap-build Brawler, particularly in the mobility department. Although it is a poor example because Marvel will cut a lot of heroes out of the equation that can handle a situation more readily. For example during Civil War, Hulk and Thor were out because they are incredibly powerful and would unbalance the situation.
Of course, implementing actual superheroes in PF is pretty silly anyway, despite the "superheroic" power levels you can reach. The tropes are too different.
And just as a nitpick to earlier description - Spidey doesn't "see bullets and dodge them". His danger sense kicks in and he dodges. Seeing them isn't really involved.
This is pretty much textbook Uncanny Dodge. Spiderman has an insane agility + Uncanny Dodge which allows him to retain his AC against attacks despite being unaware of them.
A secondary feature of Spiderman's spider-sense is pretty much textbook diviner's initiative. If combat starts, he's on the initiative track. Venom has an ability that explicitly allows him to get a surprise round against Spiderman despite his awesome modifiers.
Honestly, building super hero-esque characters in Pathfinder isn't that hard. I've wanted to do a super-hero-adventurer game for a while but the concept of it confuses people who can't make genre-salad.
Similarly, Urban adventures place PCs in a position where their murderhobo-ing isn't very appreciated. Law and order doesn't lend itself to adventuring like wilderness and dungeons do, and heroes taking the law into their own hands probably aren't going to make many friends among those in power (especially if those in power may be at least a little corrupt).
Enter the vigilante (not that horrible class) campaign where the PCs live their lives as mostly normal people but don disguises and aliases to adventure in the urban environment and deal with threats against the citizens and city from within.
If we're sticking to that, concept-wise physical prowess doesn't fall into super-power mode unless mythic, then what ways would be acceptable for 'martials getting nice things'? Outlandish techniques? Creating abilities for strength levels of a person that can lift more than the world's record? I admit that Spider-man level prowess is kind of out there for a guy to just get but what about Captain America, who technically doesn't have super strength? What about minor magic or alchemical tools?I'd have to agree considering how difficult it is to kill a marvel character. :)I agree those rules should be normal for martial characters, but since it's not the case the mythic rules is where many of those Marvel characters would fall into. I was just bringing that up since that's how the game in its current state would handle it.You're missing the point Sauce.
The Mythic rules were a mistake. They kind of sort of bring martials up to roughly where they should be in the normal rules [barring a few outlier abilities that don't belong, and a few generic 'mythic crushes nonmythic just because' rules] but then they take casters up to 11.
I was more trying to make a play on words abilities. Mythic characters have the Hard to Kill ability, while Marvel characters have the Power of Plot.
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One thing that could help is to get rid of some of the artificial limiters that should work if you have the right stats.
For example, naturally eliminate the movement limit for jumping. Eliminate the size category limit for combat maneuvers.
Except there's no indication that Spider-man has special strength for lifting things. He punches things really hard too. Every game...Strength on that level can just be covered by mythic rules. A barbarian with 20 STR + 4 rage bonus with Mule Back Cords and Display of Strength can reach 52 as well. That's just being first level, too. It's really no big deal.PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
but we're not talking Mythic Rules, we're talking normal rules.
And we're talking those Strength scores, not just lift-and-carry. Throw a spell of Giant form on the first level guy and he can lift and carry tons, too. Not quite the point I'm trying to make, here.
Spiderman can jump a ten story building. he can effectively run 100 mph+. He can see bullets and dodge them. He essentially has perfect hand-eye coordination and balance, as well as exceptional recuperation abilities and stamina when fighting.
Yeah, but if your talking about people that can do that sort of thing those are the rules they would fall into. So Spider-Man would likely have 32 strength plus the mythic ability. They wouldn't just give him a whopping 52. Just like jumping very high, covered by a mythic ability, as they wouldn't give him +400 on acrobatics.
As for hand eye coordination and seeing bullets, monks can catch bullets at like level 2. As for running fast, there's a feat that allows you to have 50% concealment while running. IDK how fast that translates to, but being nearly invisible while running sounds pretty fast.
COunter nitpick: Spiderman has reflexes at least 15x faster then human. He can see bullets. His spider-sense allows him to dodge things before they actually happen, and in terms of metapower, is closer to the 9th level ability 'foresight'. He can, after all, sense when to stop a spinning roulette wheel bomb on the one number where it won't go off, and stuff like that. Even in circumstances where his spider-sense gets shut down, it's VERY hard to lay a hand on him. He can sense when Thanos is about to snap his fingers and kill half of all life in the universe.
Or to put it another way, there's an old comic where he's going up against speed demon, who can move way faster then Spidey...Spidey can see him move, he just can't lay a glove on him. Even without his spider-sense, his reflexes are fast enough that he can just barely dodge a gun fired at point-blank range.
Oh, and monks can dodge 1 bullet (missile)/rd, and takes another feat to catch it. Dodge missile has a real limitation on it. Note spidey can't catch a bullet, but certain martial artists in Marvel-dom can.
==Aelryinth
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One thing that could help is to get rid of some of the artificial limiters that should work if you have the right stats.
For example, naturally eliminate the movement limit for jumping. Eliminate the size category limit for combat maneuvers.
Honestly I think that the size category limits for maneuvers are pointless and have always been. Characters of smaller sizes should be much weaker in terms of maneuver potential than larger characters in the system (in 3.x, you had at least a 4 point difference to size-related checks when mis-sized and it got much higher, before accounting for ability scores). Even comparing a human to an ogre, the ogre's got a +10 racial bonus to Strength (+5 CMB/CMD), -2 Dex (-1 CMD), and a +1 due to size. Ignoring BAB, the ogre should already have a pretty huge advantage over a man-sized character and a massive advantage over a halfling-sized character.
If El Flyrkee the Kobold Luchador can manage to grapple, trip, disarm, or bull rush the ogre's CMD, let him!
One thing that could help is to get rid of some of the artificial limiters that should work if you have the right stats.
For example, naturally eliminate the movement limit for jumping. Eliminate the size category limit for combat maneuvers.
Honestly I think that the size category limits for maneuvers are pointless and have always been. Characters of smaller sizes should be much weaker in terms of maneuver potential than larger characters in the system (in 3.x, you had at least a 4 point difference to size-related checks when mis-sized and it got much higher, before accounting for ability scores). Even comparing a human to an ogre, the ogre's got a +10 racial bonus to Strength (+5 CMB/CMD), -2 Dex (-1 CMD), and a +1 due to size. Ignoring BAB, the ogre should already have a pretty huge advantage over a man-sized character and a massive advantage over a halfling-sized character.
If El Flyrkee the Kobold Luchador can manage to grapple, trip, disarm, or bull rush the ogre's CMD, let him!
Quite frankly there are a lot of limiters that don't really need to be there. I'm reminded of my constant house rules that weapon size difference goes by 'handedness' so a Halfling can wield a medium longsword as a two handed weapon and any handedness past that gets a cumulative pentalty. That way when you get to abilities like Titan Mauler instead of some garble that doesn't even work right at first you can just be able to count as a size category bigger for the purpose of wielding weapons and the game doesn't break down.
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Quite frankly there are a lot of limiters that don't really need to be there. I'm reminded of my constant house rules that weapon size difference goes by 'handedness' so a Halfling can wield a medium longsword as a two handed weapon and any handedness past that gets a cumulative pentalty. That way when you get to abilities like Titan Mauler instead of some garble that doesn't even work right at first you can just be able to count as a size category bigger for the purpose of wielding weapons and the game doesn't break down.
Sounds very similar to the house rule I use which is based on 3.0 which was, also, very similar. In 3.0, weapons had size categories right along with creatures.
A short sword = small longsword
A longsword = medium longsword
A greatsword = large longsword
And so forth.
Creatures could wield a weapon their size in 1-hand, a smaller weapon as a light weapon, and up to +1 size category as a 2-hander. It was IMHO very simple and worked well. It also made random treasure suck significantly less for small or large sized races since finding a medium longsword wasn't a huge loss for a halfling, nor finding a halfling-sized longsword a huge bummer for a human. In 3.5 and PF, suddenly they magically take a -2 penalty for it being mis-sized (poor Bilbo and Frodo, Sting was giving them a -2 since that elven blade sure as hell wasn't made for no halflings :P).
It also opened up things that you just can't do in Pathfinder anymore. Like wielding a small-sized longspear 1-handed with a shield (sorry, no phalanx reach + shields, that'd be silly, like fighters having nice things).
EDIT: Because of course it was so very too much OP to let Fighter-types take Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Bastard Sword] and be able to wield bastard swords ranging from small to large size to deal 1d8, 1d10, and 2d8 damage. Oh no, the horror.