Okilly-dokilly!! I have a problem as a GM of my party, and I could use your support... and I apologize in advance for this wall of text!
We are playing Rise of the Runelord (I won'be post spoiler!); I manage a party of 5 PCs (three 4rt-level and and two 5nt-level characters) and we are at the end of the 1st adventure. One of the players (let's call him Bob) have 19 years and, in the game, is a CG shoanti warpriest5 of Gorum, an indomitable warrior whose temperament was forged in Cinderlands, and fights without fear rows of enemies. For the glory of Gorum, off course!
Unfortunately, in the last sessions, I encountered problems with Bob. I can appreciate that he let fascinate by my descriptions about the game world and interactions with NPCs... but his euphoria him to shout on the table. “Check of Spellcraft: TWENTY-THREE!”, or “Roll for attack the monster... CAN I HIT HIM WITH NINETEEN?” More than once it was pointed out that gives no little annoyance; he apologizes, promises to stay but then the next roll of the dice he starts screaming again. Also, while I am describing a room or interpret an NPC (or when players communicate with each other or with the PCs), Bob will stop making off topic comments. In my sessions I use music (for example the site Tabletop Audio) to give greater emphasis to places and situations - do not know about you, but I find it irritating that Bob proves not to pay attention to the descriptions, stopping me in the middle of doing his work that there 'enter anything with the play or, worse, lets out metagame comments.
But this is just the tip of the iceberg. He try to be nice to everyone, but this attitude is clearly forced. When players come with new PCs, it should Shoanti of suspicious nature warmly welcomes newcomers and declares them his friends, whoever they are (even a tengu, although he never see this race in his life). "We can trust them, do not worry!" This is an attitude that is anything but consistent with its BG.
Bob likes to point that is eager to face new battles... but our campaign is not purely EUMATE (Italian acronym of “Entra-Uccidi-Mostro-Arraffa-Tesoro-Esci” → in English is known as Hack'n'Slash), then when the group is engaged in activities that do not relate to the fight Bob begins to look bored. And when he finally fights, whenever he misses an enemy or is hit he groans. “Come on, i've buffed mymself with bull's strengh and divine favor, how can I have missed that little s@#t with my bonus?!”
Things got worse in the last session. The group, to take their enemies by surprise, have decided to use disguises; some PCs (with camouflage or spells) have dressed as enemies, while others have played the part of prisoners, Bob included. Well, in the beginning he is shown inclined to follow this plan... at least until one of the "captors" did not tell him to pass the greatsword because it was difficult to hide (and enemies, of course, would still suspicious seeing a prisoner with his weapons on him). Then he began to complain, saying that without his greatsword was useless and that he could not do anything for the all time. At that moment he began to think not as a warpriest of Gorum, but as Bob, and the other players were a bit annoyed of his complaints. Eventually they manage to convince him, but Bob had made up his mind that if ever there were any problems, the "jailer" would refuse to give him the greatsword to defend himself. It was not a suggestion, but a direct comment (and repeated several times!), and the suspected player (who plays a CG character that has good relations with the warpriest) felt offended for this accusation.
We have a half hour of pure interpretation - but in all this time Bob took muttering softly that did not enjoy, that others wanted to ruin the play, getting to even say that he preferred at this point to change the character. He's got to have fun when, finally, the battle is incoming. In the battle one of PG is seriously injured by the enemies, but after overcoming the challenge the warpriest starts to go about his business, leaving the group (as these were regrouping and trying to heal the wounded PG).
He find in a room a treasure chest and improvised a burglar ... but the chest was equipped with a trap that is activated (a hidden blade), and again Bob complains that everything must always go wrong (although he, just saw the trunk, he immediately went on without taking precautions). The group realizes that the warpriest disappeared, and hear some noises in the next room; they go to check, and see the warpriest hit several times the chest with the greatsword until to break it. The chest contained several coins (approximately 6000 gp, split between silver and bronze coins, as well as jewelry and weapon), and part of its content is poured on the ground. The warpriest decided to hold the chest for itself, so if it is loaded on the shoulders - then when he realized he had broken through the chest, reverses the contents in a bag and he lose time to bend down and collect EVERY SINGLE COINS utilized on land, between disbelief and protests of the group that were not the place and time for such a thing.
An another player (Bob's brother), at this point of the game, began to tease the warpriest (not Bob) comparing him to an Abadar's banker - but Bob shouted "F**K YOU!", he got up and he left the room, slamming the door. I and the other players we were flabbergasted by this reaction.
And for the first time since I started this campaign, I had passed the desire to play and I said that we had finished for that day.
When Bob and I were alone, I was talking to him for about an hour. Bluntly I listed his faults and that, should such a thing happen again, I would feel forced not to play longer with us (and this would be a very bad thing 'cause we play at home of Bob's family). Bob said he feels mocked by the group because they do not take his character seriously and that is secured with statistics and power-playing - but seeing how he is actually involved, I can not give a reason to the other. At this point I suggested, therefore, that one of these days the guys in the group see him and discuss about this.
I am speaking personally: I do not think Bob is bullied only because they enjoy acting so, but because at times the warpriest's thoughts is "replaced" by Bob's thoughts and, later, Bob feels offended if I or an another player makes him noticed about his conduct. Moreover, I was playing many years ago with a group for almost two years, in which the GM (at the beginning) and also the group (later) started to bully me. For two years. So I know what it means to be ridiculed and humiliated by the whole party (in the game and off-game); it is a very bad feeling and I recognize the symptoms. But in this situation is Bob to give other players the opportunity to feel teased for his metagame's behavior.
I am for the diplomacy and communication. If there are any problems I'd rather discuss it and see what's wrong, instead of getting up from his chair, throwing insults and go away slamming the door. I want to give another chance to Bob before I begin to decree “All right, now get off f**k out and never come back with my as GM in this party!”. I want to be sure I can handle this to the best of my ability. August is about to end, and for us guys in the group exams are coming - therefore we will not play for at least two weeks. I advised Bob to use this time to talk with the other members of the party, apologizing for his attitude and try to clarify if their jokes are aimed at warpriest or if really have something against Bob. I then called the boys, contacting them one by one, explaining the current situation and that these days Bob could contact them to talk to them about what happened in the last sessions.
Then going to talk about the game world - it seems clear that, as things are going, the warpriest became CN (behaved selfishly, thinking about his welfare rather than sincerely interested in the conditions of his friends and comrades in arms). And, worse, this attitude is likely to jeopardize its relations with Gorum, thus risking losing his divine powers.
Gorum seems to be identical to Crom (the Hyborean god of Conan the Barbarian); he takes no account of the eternal conflict between good and evil, its aution is dedicated to conflict and war itself, whether for political or religious reasons. I have seen Inner Sea Gods and about Faiths of Balance that this deity has its taboos (not tolerate cowards, those who kill the helpless and those who make use of poisons and diseases), but actually I could not find tips on how a follower of Gorum should behave to be considered chaotic good. Bob has accepted his change of alignment, although I have asked if in future sessions could be some way to go to be good ... but a divine character with a class whose Patron Gorum, frankly, it seems to me not a little easy to be a champion of good.How you should reconcile faith in Gorum with being good?
this guy shouldnt be playing PF. so i say he should either be kicked out or not be invited again. next time you play dont tell him that you going to and have someone secretly get his brother.
this guy shouldnt be playing PF. so i say he should either be kicked out or not be invited again. next time you play dont tell him that you going to and have someone secretly get his brother.
Well, as I said I have granted him a second chance .... only one.
I do not like to bring discord, especially between two brothers. But it is also true that Bob is a boy of 19 years, and that should try to behave as a mature person rather than as a petulant brat.and if this behavior occurs again then I will be forced to leave the group... obviously, if this were to happen, then I should find another place for the party; I can feel guilty about going with the party to play in Bob's house, and the excluded player is Bob :SAny hit about roleplaying a good follower of Gorum?
to be a good follower of Gorum you should be thee first one in battle and always kill someone in battle. avoid bluff, diplomacy, and knowledge checks. take what you want and if someone says you shouldn't punch them in the face. BE A JERK. it should be easy for him, right?
Sounds like there are two issues:
1) His character is a jerk. For this, let it play out in game.
2) He is a jerk. Talk to him and be clear of the specific things he's doing that ruin the game for others - the shouting, the complaining, the interruptions - and let him know politely that he needs to stop them.
@TheWhiteWingFamily: i meant for a CG follower of Gorum.
@MeanMutton: i choose option 2, and it's the decision i've made since yesterday
I say that followers of Gorum should be TN/CN unless its a paladin.
have him play like a barbarian would mostly fighting and screaming and shouldn't really try to do things out side of battle.
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Bob is very emotionally involved in the game, to the point of appearing somewhat bi-polar (I'm not saying that he is, but judging by your words the severity of his feelings resemble those of my bi-polar daughter). I do not encourage you to simply kick him out, because as you said he is a friend. However, Bob is old enough that his friends and peers can expect him to behave like an adult, or at least to behave like an adult when it is important.
If your group is like mine then you have certain expectations of each other, such as:
Show up on time, get along with everyone in the group, do your job as part of the team
Don't sabotage or harm players or characters in the group (don't be a jerk)
Know the difference between fantasy from reality
Be a good sport, practice mutual respect, know boundaries
These gaming expectation mirror those in real life, and we want thes expectations fulfilled a majority of the time. A rationale person shouldn't expect them fulfilled without fail, but maybe some percenatage between 65% and 95%, depending on the people and situation? It sounds like Bob is slipping far down the scale, to the point that you expect him to take the fun out of gaming with your friends. And if gaming isn't not fun, then what is the point?
You or another member of the party must talk to Bob again one on one. Before the talk, you must accept that removing him from the party must happen if he cannot get his act together. Judging by what have written, Bob has not taken the feedback he has already received seriously. Let him know that he is harming other people's fun in the game, and that if he doesn't get his act together he will not be invited back. Obviously, you should say it in your own words. I'm not telling you to be confrontational, but if he doesn't take it seriously then the words are worth nothing.
Okay, Bob just contacted me and the party saying he had an announcement to make.
Some time ago, after a few visits, the doctors diagnosed him with chronic obesity is at risk for diabetes and diseases such as thrombosis. So, in September, he will be forced to be hospitalized (in an another region) in a specialized clinic. It will remain until December or January, then he losts faculty's exam and will stay away from friends.
Obviously this does not justify his actions, but he explains his behavior in this last weeks: he was afraid, and did not know how to handle this situation. Bob's brother confirmed his story; Bob apologized to everyone for causing trouble and discomfort to the party. So this is the last session he had with us .. and I'm sorry that things turned out well
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If it's not too far away, you all should go see him and have a game there. It should not only make him feel better, but also change his attitude towards the game. If you show him you really care, he might just start caring back.
Well... after a mid-month, I am here again to update the situation.
So, what's happened? After discussing several times with Bob (and the other players), it seemed that the situation was restored. The party has been exploring the dungeon, facing various encounters until the BEG and his servants. This was a hard fight (a CR 8 encounter againts an APL 5 party!) but after various imprecations, rains of dice, a druid's animal companion died and terrible critical hits they have managed to win. This is mainly due to Shoanti for addressing the situation very well, not complaining as he did earlier and facing three enemies alone.
Then, this morning, we found that Bob cheated.
He was of the view that Strength's bonus to wield a two-handed weapon would apply not only to damages but also to attack rolls. His "rule" has applied since the beginning of RotR. That is, we talk about six months of gaming. And we found out only this morning 'cause Bob told us about her "doubts" to the two-handed weapons.
He isn't a naive. He owns the Core Rulebook, he knows the PRD site, and he attended an Italian forum dedicated to the RPGs (included Pathfinder). Also, to liaise with the party we use WhatsApp, and I have declared my full readiness to resolve regulations doubts like AoO, concentration's check, SLA and Golarion's lore. Both during the sessions and during the chats.
When I saw the "bonus" on his sheet, Bob replied "Don't worry, I apply this bonus when I use bull's strength". But this morning (after the BEG's fight) he admitted had "misinterpreted the rules", and that applied illegitimate bonus on its PC. We're not talking about a wizard who uses magic missile, but a warpriest of Gorum. A divine gish whose strategy is buff herself with divine favor and bull's strengh before of the battle. The campaign has been going on for six damned months, and in all that time he was convinced that his "rule" was correct and he never mentioned.
I got angry when he replied "it was an honest mistake" - after all the problems that have sprung up in recent sessions, after all his whining about things like "I do not enjoy" or "the other players laugh at me," after which we were part including for his weight problems and AFTER I talked to him about various issues and he had said he would put back... the fact that he did this "revelation" only after finishing the 1st adventure, well, I can't say that it was an "honest mistake".
So, albeit reluctantly, I was forced to tell him that he was no longer welcome with me as the party's GM.
Really, I did not enjoy this situation. Many people (including users of this community) advised me to throw him out unceremoniously. Instead, I wanted to give him a second chance, thinking that the best way to solve problems was to communicate and talk quietly. Also because this is my first time as GM, and other players say that they are having fun like crazy in my campaign. I thought then that things were going well.
Well, once again I was wrong.
Well... after a mid-month, I am here again to update the situation.
So, what's happened? After discussing several times with Bob (and the other players), it seemed that the situation was restored. The party has been exploring the dungeon, facing various encounters until the BEG and his servants. This was a hard fight (a CR 8 encounter againts an APL 5 party!) but after various imprecations, rains of dice, a druid's animal companion died and terrible critical hits they have managed to win. This is mainly due to Shoanti for addressing the situation very well, not complaining as he did earlier and facing three enemies alone.
Then, this morning, we found that Bob cheated.
He was of the view that Strength's bonus to wield a two-handed weapon would apply not only to damages but also to attack rolls. His "rule" has applied since the beginning of RotR. That is, we talk about six months of gaming. And we found out only this morning 'cause Bob told us about her "doubts" to the two-handed weapons....(snip)
While I understand that there were other factors that went into this whole thing, I do think this could have been an honest mistake.
I've considered myself a fairly competent optimizer for the past 10 years of my life, through 3.x and pf both. During this time I've played a total of 1 two-handed weapon user, so my knowledge of that area had always been sketchy. Fast forward to a few recent games when this very rule was brought to my attention. I had thought, for ten years, that str x 1.5 was for both to-hit and damage, so this guy's 6 months isn't super terrible, haha.
I mean, if you were looking for a reason to remove him from the group, that's fine; I understand the whole 'straw that broke the camel's back,' but sometimes honest mistakes are just that. Even from people that are otherwise knowledgeable about the game. Though if he was aware of it after, say, two months of the game and didn't change it. Yeah, that's a definite GTFO moment. :)
Is there a feat for adding the two handed weapon bonus to, to hit?
I had a problem with a player who when I asked her how many arrows she had left, she admitted she forgot to bring her character sheet. I told her she could not play if she did not bring her sheet. She never came to a game again. It's better for some people to play online games where all this stuff is taken care of by the program.
In summation, if they want to learn the rules, great. If not, maybe you can still be friends, without the game. It sounds like hiking would be better for him anyways.
Arrows are so damn cheap though, it's common sense they would buy at least 100 or so for the 2gp it costs anytime they come by a town.
Now a Gunslinger's bullets, that'd make a bit more sense to keep track of in the low levels.