Creative Director
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Where is everyone getting this idea that making a lich requires "unspeakable horrible acts"? I do not see any such mention of this in the lich description, or the "becoming a lich" text. It just says it's difficult and expensive, not necessarily evil. I'm looking here in particular:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html
yes I know the alignment says evil, but I'm referring to the creation of the lich:
a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks.The exact methods ... should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
In the bestiaries, there's often not enough room to get into the flavor details that a monster deserves, particularly if the monster is complicated or a template. The lich is both.
In these cases, we generally focus the flavor information in other books, or in adventures. That's where folks are getting it from—the canonical lore for Golarion.
Obviously that doesn't set the lore for any other realm, but it IS what you're gonna get from us here at Paizo regarding additional information about the lich.
But what books or entries are you looking at?
Where is everyone getting this idea that making a lich requires "unspeakable horrible acts"? I do not see any such mention of this in the lich description, or the "becoming a lich" text. It just says it's difficult and expensive, not necessarily evil. I'm looking here in particular:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html
yes I know the alignment says evil, but I'm referring to the creation of the lich:
Doesn't actually matter really, since a liches template will set him to evil. He will be evil from doing whatever it is to become a lich, unless you houserule it as otherwise. Though there is nothing stopping that evil individual from turning good at a later date.
So since your alignment is forcibly shifted do you get a save? If I become a lich and then adopt a puppy does my alignment shift to good again? I thought 1 bad act could not force a alignment shift?
So since your alignment is forcibly shifted do you get a save? If I become a lich and then adopt a puppy does my alignment shift to good again? I thought 1 bad act could not force a alignment shift?
The 1 bad act is obviously horrendous enough to cause alignment change. Just because it's one act doesn't mean it wont cause alignment change. If a person has been good, but then knowingly pressed a button that commits omnicide to everyone but them, it would make them evil, even though it is a single act.
YMMV, if a player wanted to entertain this, my house rules would create unspeakable, horrific acts as part of the necessary ritual to become a lich.
No adopting puppies (unless the lich used them for nefarious reasons.)
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No adopting puppies (unless the lich used them for nefarious reasons.)
So since your alignment is forcibly shifted do you get a save? If I become a lich and then adopt a puppy does my alignment shift to good again? I thought 1 bad act could not force a alignment shift?The 1 bad act is obviously horrendous enough to cause alignment change. Just because it's one act doesn't mean it wont cause alignment change. If a person has been good, but then knowingly pressed a button that commits omnicide to everyone but them, it would make them evil, even though it is a single act.
Yeah, the usual rule is that one act shouldn't cause an alignment change unless it's a really extreme act. From what's been said, it sounds like attaining lich-dom involves things like ritual murder and sacrifice. Which would mean it's arguably not a single act (Since it's multiple killings/sacrifices) and a pretty extremely evil act.
Where is everyone getting this idea that making a lich requires "unspeakable horrible acts"? I do not see any such mention of this in the lich description, or the "becoming a lich" text. It just says it's difficult and expensive, not necessarily evil. I'm looking here in particular:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/lich.html
yes I know the alignment says evil, but I'm referring to the creation of the lich:
a prospective lich must also learn the secrets of transferring his soul into the receptacle and of preparing his body for the transformation into undeath, neither of which are simple tasks.The exact methods ... should involve expenditures of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces, numerous deadly adventures, and a large number of difficult skill checks over the course of months, years, or decades.Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.
The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.
In the bestiaries, there's often not enough room to get into the flavor details that a monster deserves, particularly if the monster is complicated or a template. The lich is both.
In these cases, we generally focus the flavor information in other books, or in adventures. That's where folks are getting it from—the canonical lore for Golarion.
Obviously that doesn't set the lore for any other realm, but it IS what you're gonna get from us here at Paizo regarding additional information about the lich.
Seriously, are you a robot? That answer is just perfect.
:D
Golarion liches are unspeakably evil.
The ones in my games potentially can be redeemed.
I like redemption.
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I cant recall where (maybe it was written up in Carrion Crown) but I thought being a lich sort of dampens, damages, or destroys the soul. After ages of being immortal, liches no longer have any connection to the living and morality simply goes by the way side. They dont get any redemption because becoming good is of no consequence to them. Basically a lich becomes a powerful echo of a former soul they used to be. If any of this is correct it makes little sense why a lich would ever want to become good or be redeemed.
But what is required to become a lich? Why does it seem like we are just getting these vague "They do unspeakably evil things" as a default. Sorry but if I don't see what specific act is so terrible I am having a hard time with why they are evil off the bat.
So can someone provide me with the information? What adventures have this information? What splat books? I am seriously curious at this point.
Ideally, it's a custom process for every single lich.
Essentially, every lich has committed his or her own separate series of crimes against demihumanity to reach that state.
Also, the phylactery's the easy part. The hard part is figuring out how to kill yourself in such a way that you become an undead horror instead of a mere corpse. Classically (like, going back to earlier editions), it involves a special elixir that annihalates you or transforms you upon consumption.
It's also worth noting that in Golarion lore you can force the lich transformation, as was the case with Arazni.
Undead Revisited has a whole section on liches with more details on the process, IIRC.
Shadows of Gallowspire (The last part of the Carrion Crown Adventure Path) and Undead Revisited both have information on how the Lich is handled in Golarion canon.
They both also state that becoming a Lich requires at least a few Evil deeds done in pursuit of undeath.
In my games we all assume the lichification process requires evil acts...
That doesn't lock you in permanently, however.
This is not to say that a Paladin would consider the process (especially since he isn't an arcane caster), just that something that once was evil has the CHANCE to be redeemed.
So...
IMO, all liches are evil, at first.
But they can change.
*cue hand-holding and Kumbaya singing*
If Angels can fall and Fiends can ascend, then I can believe in a Lich rejecting the path of Evil.
That doesn't mean I would not try and destroy a Lich. My goddess does not tolerate the Undead, regardless of their alignment.
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Okay so I looked it up and apparently Undead Revisited basically says "They get evil because it takes so much focus concentration that they don't have time for love." And not really any other explanation.
...
Yeah. Everyone with a strong work ethic and no friends is an evil abomination I guess.
I used to have a strong work ethic and no friends. Then, the night before Christmas, a series of ghosts visited me, told me that I was living a bad life, and demanded I changed my ways.
I assumed that since they were undead they were all evil, and had them exorcised. Bah! Humbug!
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I just looked and my reading says it's nothing about focus. They gradually lose interest in love and such things. There are parts of our personalities and preferences that are biological. For example, my mom loves me because I'm great and everything, but also because there are biological forces predisposing her to do so.
Becoming a lich rewrites those basic biological tendencies. Natural tendencies toward affection and cooperation are replaced with distrust and paranoia. When the lich thinks about what happened in the last century, the group of adventurers who disrupted his plan and threatened to destroy him weigh much more heavily than the dozens of adorable children who helped him across the street. Even more so than we would because he's hardwired to weigh things that way.
Now, can a lich defy its nature and become good? Sure. It's harder than when he was mortal, though. Then he had competing natural urges pushing him toward helping others and toward selfishness. He can make a decision to defy his nature, but if he was driven to seek and achieve undeath in this way while alive means he's fairly entrenched in that mindset and it'll be a long, steeply uphill battle.
As for why some details but not others, the lich needs Craft Wondrous Item before turning, so you need to build it into their feats. The cost of the phylactery may or may not factor into their wealth. Plus, they may need to remake it when the PC destroy it. Those are mechanical concerns that are still relevant to how you build the monster, not just the backstory. That's what the Bestiaries make sure to include. Where they come from is left vague just like the mating patterns of aberrations.
I just looked and my reading says it's nothing about focus. They gradually lose interest in love and such things. There are parts of our personalities and preferences that are biological. For example, my mom loves me because I'm great and everything, but also because there are biological forces predisposing her to do so.
Becoming a lich rewrites those basic biological tendencies. Natural tendencies toward affection and cooperation are replaced with distrust and paranoia. When the lich thinks about what happened in the last century, the group of adventurers who disrupted his plan and threatened to destroy him weigh much more heavily than the dozens of adorable children who helped him across the street. Even more so than we would because he's hardwired to weigh things that way.
Now, can a lich defy its nature and become good? Sure. It's harder than when he was mortal, though. Then he had competing natural urges pushing him toward helping others and toward selfishness. He can make a decision to defy his nature, but if he was driven to seek and achieve undeath in this way while alive means he's fairly entrenched in that mindset and it'll be a long, steeply uphill battle.
As for why some details but not others, the lich needs Craft Wondrous Item before turning, so you need to build it into their feats. The cost of the phylactery may or may not factor into their wealth. Plus, they may need to remake it when the PC destroy it. Those are mechanical concerns that are still relevant to how you build the monster, not just the backstory. That's what the Bestiaries make sure to include. Where they come from is left vague just like the mating patterns of aberrations.
We spend a lot of time discussing aberrant mating patterns in our games.
I don't know why.
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I don't intend to pull large segments out of books, so I hope this doesn't cross a line but will understand if it's deleted, but this is from Undead Revisited.
Yet for most, these pleasures eventually begin to pale. Though they may start out simply seeking more time in which to continue their work, with no true predilection toward evil, in the end, all liches inevitably cycle down into madness or a paranoia that mortals seek to annihilate them—the latter, of course, often being true. Through the endless centuries, the cycle of time speeds ever faster, and the faces of those lesser beings still trapped in death’s plan become a blur, nameless and forgettable, with the lich remembering only those who seek to destroy it. Is it any wonder then that most liches grow to nurture a generalized hatred for life, or that they surround themselves with horrific magic to destroy interlopers?
eventuallyinevitably cycle down intoI.e. they didn't start that way. This thread asks the question of whether ANY liches can be non evil.
The stuff you're quoting explains why multiple hundreds of years old liches might be evil, but it doesn't explain why week old liches would be evil, because "eventually" hasn't happened yet. The only explanation for the week old liches being evil seems to be that "they're lonely / workaholics" or something.
Although again, I can't speak to what may be mentioned in carrion crow.
Again though, the guy who became a lich last week also completed a series of ritualistic acts of such depravity and horror that he was catapulted from mortal wizard to immortal lichdom.
Those specific acts are left vague because they vary by the lich and also to let GMS have room to design a backstory relevant to the group playstyle and content rating.
This thread is accidentally hilarious.
Ultimately, we will ALL agree that MOST liches are evil.
Is anyone disputing that?
More importantly, is anyone saying that ALL liches MUST be evil?
I agree that my stuff was about why they tend to stay evil rather than how they get there (or if somehow they start non-evil why they go there). But I read your quote a little differently.
In every life, there are factors that push them towards good. Compassion, honor, mercy received, etc. Relationships can reinforce these feelings and behaviors. There are also factors that push toward evil. Selfishness, greed, wrath, etc. Some deeds can also inflame these (e.g. murder). The way these balance out is complicated but I suspect we agree about this on the platitude level at least. (I try to avoid putting words in others' mouths, which is why I'm being so cagey on that point :-))
While they're becoming liches, the things they have to do and that they're exposed to weigh heavily on the evil side of that ledger. The focus means they lose track of the good side of the ledger. I don't entirely agree with the way they parsed that sentence, but that's the way I read it.
And for the record, it's not clear from what I wrote, but I don't think you have to be evil to want to become a lich. I do think, though, that there are sacrifices you have to make and lines you have to cross that (outside of ridiculously exceptional circumstances) you either wouldn't do it if you weren't evil or that will push you over the edge.
Edit: the process to me means either the research or the things you do to get it done. That drives you to corruption and we fill in the gaps about why.
This thread is accidentally hilarious.
Ultimately, we will ALL agree that MOST liches are evil.
Is anyone disputing that?
More importantly, is anyone saying that ALL liches MUST be evil?Yeah for sure most of them are evil. Even if not causally NECESSARY, I think there would still be a strong correlation between the sort of egotism you'd need, the lack of care about being a rotten looking skeleton, and so forth, compared to the list of evil people out there.
But some of the exceptional/rare concepts set forth near the beginning of the thread were pretty convincing as other routes, the eternal protector, or chronicler of the world's knowledge, etc.
Here's an interesting thought:
A lich who has gone to great lengths to maintain their pre-death appearance... Gentle Repose or whatever spells maintain/restore dead flesh to a fresh state.
Not all liches have to look like rotting corpses, do they?
They could be... HIDING AMONG US! *insert scary music here*
Pixie, the vow you quoted still states that the paladin would destroy undead. Regardless of alignment. Even if they are good or neutral he would still destroy them as he sees undeath as an unholy affront to the natural order. Just because it's good does not mean he won't destroy it. He just does it with empathy instead of malice for evil.Read it again.A paladin with this oath vows to restore the natural state of death to any animate corpse she encounters, and destroy the undead energy in the process. While a few paladins who take this oath recognize that not all undead are evil, others are quite willing to purge neutral and good undead along with all the evil ones.
You read it again. In other words this vow says they Vow to destroy Undead and return the natural order of death to the animated corpse, or more simply "Put the unnatural undead thing to rest".
Alright Ill admit that the second part of the vow pretty much contradicts the first. Since the first pretty much says they vow to destroy any undead they encounter, but the second seems to indicate that some may not destroy good or neutral undead. Yet another instance of Paizo's ability to confuse things further.
It is a little confusing, but the second half makes it clear that a paladin's personal judgement is the final arbiter.
Some paladins might destroy all undead regardless of alignment (and would probably fall if they killed a good ghost without provocation beyond 'it was undead')
Other paladins would recognize that non-evil undead might not deserve to be destroyed. They might not like it, and they would probably try to convince the undead that it would be best if it moved on or otherwise destroyed itself, but they would recognize that killing something that isn't evil just because of what it is is not a good act.
Regardless of any Oaths, a paladin's primary goal is "do good," not "destroy evil."
It is important not to forget that.
In regards to Doomed Hero's comment about a paladin killing a good ghost...
I've always treated ghosts as tragic figures in my games, and you don't kill them, you free them from their cursed undead afterlife.
I mean, if you're good, don't you want your spirit to go where good people go when they die?
My two cents. I wouldn't punish a Paladin for releasing a ghost from the mortal world.
This thread is accidentally hilarious.
Ultimately, we will ALL agree that MOST liches are evil.
Is anyone disputing that?
More importantly, is anyone saying that ALL liches MUST be evil?Yeah for sure most of them are evil. Even if not causally NECESSARY, I think there would still be a strong correlation between the sort of egotism you'd need, the lack of care about being a rotten looking skeleton, and so forth, compared to the list of evil people out there.
But some of the exceptional/rare concepts set forth near the beginning of the thread were pretty convincing as other routes, the eternal protector, or chronicler of the world's knowledge, etc.
Here's an interesting thought:
A lich who has gone to great lengths to maintain their pre-death appearance... Gentle Repose or whatever spells maintain/restore dead flesh to a fresh state.
Not all liches have to look like rotting corpses, do they?
They could be... HIDING AMONG US! *insert scary music here*
Unguent of Timelessness makes great moisturizer.
This thread is accidentally hilarious.
Ultimately, we will ALL agree that MOST liches are evil.
Is anyone disputing that?
More importantly, is anyone saying that ALL liches MUST be evil?Yeah for sure most of them are evil. Even if not causally NECESSARY, I think there would still be a strong correlation between the sort of egotism you'd need, the lack of care about being a rotten looking skeleton, and so forth, compared to the list of evil people out there.
But some of the exceptional/rare concepts set forth near the beginning of the thread were pretty convincing as other routes, the eternal protector, or chronicler of the world's knowledge, etc.
I agree that they're cool concepts. I would probably give the chronicler a different immortality source. In fact, that smells to me like a creature that the original liches were trying to replicate, so it might have mechanically similar abilities granted by the deities/cosmos that the lich copied poorly. For example, the paralysis would be more of a stasis to properly observe or even catalog individual creatures. Depending on its motivations, though, that creature might be good, neutral, or evil.
The archetypal eternal protector for me is something more like the divine guardian template. I think in exceptionally rare circumstances a lich that violated the sanctum, had a flash of contrition, and took up that mantle as a flawed replacement would be cool.
Passing a lich off as, say, a vampire instead could be SO MUCH FUN!
I wonder what spells/skills the lich would have to use to do that...
(getting ideas for my next game)
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Passing a lich off as, say, a vampire instead could be SO MUCH FUN!
I wonder what spells/skills the lich would have to use to do that...
(getting ideas for my next game)
Disguise would be the big one. Maybe Bluff to fake being repulsed by holy symbols and garlic.
Gaseous Form would help too. Dominate Person could simulate the Enthrall ability. Polymorph or Beast Shape to turn into a bat or wolf.
In combat it would be a little harder. You'd want some way of level draining with a touch to really sell it. Can't think of any way to do that besides using some kind of Metamagic to convert an Enervate spell from a Ray to a Touch Attack.
So basically any Wizard Lich could pull it off. Everything you'd need is on the wizard spell list.
I actually wrote in a non-Evil Lich to a short story of mine. Said person has taken a different perspective to the "you will outlive all your friends and be all alone" thing and just enjoys immortality and the chance to endlessly pursue knowledge both as part of being a Lich.
"People come and go. I will remember my old friends fondly and forge new friendships with the next ones in line."
Said lich also makes use of items similar to the Unguent of Timelessness to keep the body from rotting.
What the heck- I now have a brand new adventure hook for my game!Here's one to bake your noodle: Can a Vampire become a Liche???According to the thread you can have a paladin lich within a week, so why not?
Make him all three!
Vampalich!
Bloodsucking for GOODNESS!
Actually, is there anything preventing a Vampire from adding Lich template?
Actually, is there anything preventing a Vampire from adding Lich template?There is, unfortunately:
“Lich” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.
DAMMIT!
How about going from Lich to... no... that doesn't work either.
Oh well.
How about a werewolf lich?