Power level of various gods?

[Kalindlara]

CorvusMask wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Also, on starstone, didn't the meteor also ** spoiler omitted **

If you're talking about

** spoiler omitted **

Dang it, again didn't edit fast enough xD

But yeah, it still brought that with it

Hmm... I hadn't heard about a link between the two. Do you recall where you heard this?

[Arcane Addict]

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

[Icyshadow]

I don't quite understand the "staying away from Tiamat" thing. Isn't she open content by virtue of being a mythological being?

[Kalindlara]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

I assume you were referring to Groetus, not Gorum. ^_^

Some of the deceived Razmiri become creatures known as apostasy wraiths. Not sure about the rest, though...

[Kalindlara]

Icyshadow wrote:

I don't quite understand the "staying away from Tiamat" thing. Isn't she open content by virtue of being a mythological being?

Hopefully this is of some interest. ^_^

[Icyshadow]

That's unfortunate, but doesn't really stop me from putting my version of her in Golarion, though I'll probably just keep her in my own setting.

[CorvusMask]

Kalindlara wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Also, on starstone, didn't the meteor also ** spoiler omitted **

If you're talking about

** spoiler omitted **

Dang it, again didn't edit fast enough xD

But yeah, it still brought that with it

Hmm... I hadn't heard about a link between the two. Do you recall where you heard this?

Wiki <_< Page for spoiler thing mentions comet's trajectory changing during earthfall while earthfall page says it was changed due to meteor aboleths summoned pulling it among the other debris meteor pulled with itself

[Kalindlara]

I should read the Wake of the Watcher article about Great Old Ones more often. ^_^

(It was there all along.)

[j b 200]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

The Rahadoumi are not eaten by Groetus. In Deaths Heretic, it is fairly laid out that the souls of the "unfaithed" (for lack of a better term) reside in an unending graveyard in the Boneyard (Pharasma's domain).

Razmiri may be eaten by Groetus, become Apostasy Wraiths (see Innser Sea Bestiary), or (and this it probably the VAST majority, like 95%) they are sent to the plane that best fits their alignment (probably LE, since that is Razmir's alignment).

[Arcane Addict]

Kalindlara wrote:

Arcane Addict wrote:

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

I assume you were referring to Groetus, not Gorum. ^_^

Some of the deceived Razmiri become creatures known as apostasy wraiths. Not sure about the rest, though...

I got a litle mixed up! Thanks for rectifying that, Kalindlara. I wish I could still edit my post...

Those Apostasy Wraiths are actually pretty cool, if very niche.

j b 200, I'm not so sure the followers of Razmir share his alignment all that often. The Razmiri doctrine isn't all that bad in and of itself, right? I mean it doesn't ask you to murder or steal or something. Its just that its a massive scam... On the other hand there is an argument to be made that being duped into complicity doesn't make you any less complicit and so liable for similar judgment...

[leo1925]

j b 200 wrote:

Arcane Addict wrote:

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

The Rahadoumi are not eaten by Groetus. In Deaths Heretic, it is fairly laid out that the souls of the "unfaithed" (for lack of a better term) reside in an unending graveyard in the Boneyard (Pharasma's domain).

Razmiri may be eaten by Groetus, become Apostasy Wraiths (see Innser Sea Bestiary), or (and this it probably the VAST majority, like 95%) they are sent to the plane that best fits their alignment (probably LE, since that is Razmir's alignment).

Razmir may also be claimed by Hell, i am sure that the heresy devils can make a very good case about how Razmir's actions have made their jobs so much easier.

[Zhangar]

Razmir would probably go to the 9th layer, even - Asmodeus likes to collect the souls of lawful evil rulers.

@ Arcane Addict - Razmir's priests are largely just thugs, using their authority to abuse the peasantry in Razmiran (the only river kingdom where the common folk are reduced to being peasants).

Razmir's faith is pretty much a combination criminal organization/cult of personality, and their religious tenants boil down to "obey or suffer."

So yeah, most of them to go to Hell. The ones that don't were probably pretty bad at being priests of Razmir.

[Arcane Addict]

Zhangar wrote:

Razmir would probably go to the 9th layer, even - Asmodeus likes to collect the souls of lawful evil rulers.

@ Arcane Addict - Razmir's priests are largely just thugs, using their authority to abuse the peasantry in Razmiran (the only river kingdom where the common folk are reduced to being peasants).

Razmir's faith is pretty much a combination criminal organization/cult of personality, and their religious tenants boil down to "obey or suffer."

So yeah, most of them to go to Hell. The ones that don't were probably pretty bad at being priests of Razmir.

I'm not talking about his 'priests', I'm talking about those exploited peasants. Surely most of them aren't LE?!

Also, please forgive me but I have to correct this... Its tenet, not tenant. Major pet peeve of mine. Spellingnazis, like myself, are probably LE, too...

[Alric Rahl]

James, comparing Pathfinder and it's story to Lost is a terrible thing to do. Lost was a terrible idea to begin with. The writers themselves didnt know what was going on and the answers they finally gave were such a kick to the junk that no one wanted to remember Lost after they finished watching it.

I doubt your players will "walk away" once a few small mysteries are revealed. I know I wouldnt, Pathfinder is more than just a story, its a game, its fun and engaging. Just because you reveal the plot doesnt mean the game gets boring. Hence why people will go back and play old games they have beaten, even though they know what happens at what point and why. Or read books over and over again, even though they know the story plot.

[Kthulhu]

Alric Rahl wrote:

James, comparing Pathfinder and it's story to Lost is a terrible thing to do. Lost was a terrible idea to begin with. The writers themselves didnt know what was going on and the answers they finally gave were such a kick to the junk that no one wanted to remember Lost after they finished watching it.

Am I alone in both:

1) enjoying Lost, and
2) not predicating my enjoyment thereof upon the ending. Lost was a journey, not a destination.

I sometimes feel that this has become the downside of the fact that television shows have become much more focused on having an series-spanning plot....some people become so absolutely focused on the "endgame" that they seem unable to enjoy anything that isn't directly linked to advancing the overall plot-line.

Lost was 7 years of great television...if you let the fact that the final episode didn't answer all the questions that you wanted answered, or answered them in ways you didn't like, ruin that for you, then you were unable to see the forest for the trees.

[James Jacobs]

Kthulhu wrote:

Alric Rahl wrote:

James, comparing Pathfinder and it's story to Lost is a terrible thing to do. Lost was a terrible idea to begin with. The writers themselves didnt know what was going on and the answers they finally gave were such a kick to the junk that no one wanted to remember Lost after they finished watching it.

Am I alone in both:

1) enjoying Lost, and
2) not predicating my enjoyment thereof upon the ending. Lost was a journey, not a destination.

I sometimes feel that this has become the downside of the fact that television shows have become much more focused on having an series-spanning plot....some people become so absolutely focused on the "endgame" that they seem unable to enjoy anything that isn't directly linked to advancing the overall plot-line.

Lost was 7 years of great television...if you let the fact that the final episode didn't answer all the questions that you wanted answered, or answered them in ways you didn't like, ruin that for you, then you were unable to see the forest for the trees.

You're not. I pretty much agree with you 100% regarding "Lost." I quite enjoyed it, and the fact that the ending wasn't the BEST THING EVER (it did the job), it very much WAS the journey that I enjoyed. Same goes for most TV shows. X-Files and Battlestar Galactica come to mind here.

But despite the fact that I liked and SILL like Lost... I'm not comparing our storytelling to them. I'm simply pointing out that once all the questions are answered, interest flags.

[Zhangar]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Razmir would probably go to the 9th layer, even - Asmodeus likes to collect the souls of lawful evil rulers.

@ Arcane Addict - Razmir's priests are largely just thugs, using their authority to abuse the peasantry in Razmiran (the only river kingdom where the common folk are reduced to being peasants).

Razmir's faith is pretty much a combination criminal organization/cult of personality, and their religious tenants boil down to "obey or suffer."

So yeah, most of them to go to Hell. The ones that don't were probably pretty bad at being priests of Razmir.

I'm not talking about his 'priests', I'm talking about those exploited peasants. Surely most of them aren't LE?!

Also, please forgive me but I have to correct this... Its tenet, not tenant. Major pet peeve of mine. Spellingnazis, like myself, are probably LE, too...

Ah, the populace? I'd say most of the common folks of Razmiran aren't true followers - they know that telling a priest "no" means getting hurt or worse, and a lot of them try to get into the priesthood just to escape their horrible lives, but no, they aren't really followers.

They're slaves.

They'll wind up in what plane's appropriate when they die.

[LazarX]

James Jacobs wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Alric Rahl wrote:

James, comparing Pathfinder and it's story to Lost is a terrible thing to do. Lost was a terrible idea to begin with. The writers themselves didnt know what was going on and the answers they finally gave were such a kick to the junk that no one wanted to remember Lost after they finished watching it.

Am I alone in both:

1) enjoying Lost, and
2) not predicating my enjoyment thereof upon the ending. Lost was a journey, not a destination.

I sometimes feel that this has become the downside of the fact that television shows have become much more focused on having an series-spanning plot....some people become so absolutely focused on the "endgame" that they seem unable to enjoy anything that isn't directly linked to advancing the overall plot-line.

Lost was 7 years of great television...if you let the fact that the final episode didn't answer all the questions that you wanted answered, or answered them in ways you didn't like, ruin that for you, then you were unable to see the forest for the trees.

You're not. I pretty much agree with you 100% regarding "Lost." I quite enjoyed it, and the fact that the ending wasn't the BEST THING EVER (it did the job), it very much WAS the journey that I enjoyed. Same goes for most TV shows. X-Files and Battlestar Galactica come to mind here.

But despite the fact that I liked and SILL like Lost... I'm not comparing our storytelling to them. I'm simply pointing out that once all the questions are answered, interest flags.

I think you're right. if all the questions of Aroden were answered, I'd wager we'd see a major drop in people trying to build Aroden-centered characters.

[MMCJawa]

James Jacobs wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Am I alone in both:
1) enjoying Lost, and
2) not predicating my enjoyment thereof upon the ending. Lost was a journey, not a destination.

I sometimes feel that this has become the downside of the fact that television shows have become much more focused on having an series-spanning plot....some people become so absolutely focused on the "endgame" that they seem unable to enjoy anything that isn't directly linked to advancing the overall plot-line.

Lost was 7 years of great television...if you let the fact that the final episode didn't answer all the questions that you wanted answered, or answered them in ways you didn't like, ruin that for you, then you were unable to see the forest for the trees.

You're not. I pretty much agree with you 100% regarding "Lost." I quite enjoyed it, and the fact that the ending wasn't the BEST THING EVER (it did the job), it very much WAS the journey that I enjoyed. Same goes for most TV shows. X-Files and Battlestar Galactica come to mind here.

But despite the fact that I liked and SILL like Lost... I'm not comparing our storytelling to them. I'm simply pointing out that once all the questions are answered, interest flags.

I can't speak for Lost, but I think some people become invested in the plot line and show mythology, more so than the characters. And later seasons can mar the earlier seasons when you realize all the build up in story lines doesn't go anywhere, or when characters you like end up being completed changed in ways that don't seem organic or natural. Battlestar's last 1.5 seasons just left such a bad taste in my mouth that it sullied the earlier seasons in my mind. And also ticked me off, as I appreciate the rather IMHO anti-science message I felt was in the final episodes.

[David knott 242]

Icyshadow wrote:

I don't quite understand the "staying away from Tiamat" thing. Isn't she open content by virtue of being a mythological being?

The name Tiamat is open content. The five-headed dragon with heads corresponding to the five evil chromatic dragon races is not.

[Kthulhu]

David knott 242 wrote:

Icyshadow wrote:

I don't quite understand the "staying away from Tiamat" thing. Isn't she open content by virtue of being a mythological being?

The name Tiamat is open content. The five-headed dragon with heads corresponding to the five evil chromatic dragon races is not.

Yup. Same situation with Demogorgon (who also was name-dropped in a Paizo publication as a demon lord, but never mentioned again).

They COULD do stuff with Orcus, as he was made open content by the Tome of Horrors, but they seem content to let WotC and Frog God Games / Necromancer Games handle Orcus-related material.

[Zhangar]

Lords of Chaos (which has an entry and demonic obedience for Orcus) calls out that Orcus has a limited presence on Golarion (mostly in Geb and Nidal) and is far, far busier with dealings on other worlds.

And Pathfinder's Orcus has also been fighting a war with an unnamed demigod for control of his abyssal realm for over a thousand years.

But yeah, I believe Mr. Jacobs has mentioned in his thread that Paizo's fine with generally leaving Orcus alone, since WotC and Frog God have done so much with him.

[James Jacobs]

Zhangar wrote:

Lords of Chaos (which has an entry and demonic obedience for Orcus) calls out that Orcus has a limited presence on Golarion (mostly in Geb and Nidal) and is far, far busier with dealings on other worlds.

And Pathfinder's Orcus has also been fighting a war with an unnamed demigod for control of his abyssal realm for over a thousand years.

But yeah, I believe Mr. Jacobs has mentioned in his thread that Paizo's fine with generally leaving Orcus alone, since WotC and Frog God have done so much with him.

Truth.

And with Savage Tide, a sizable chunk of "what WotC did with Orcus" is also in fact what Paizo, and myself, did with him. Furthermore, it was in my adventure "Headless" for Dungeon that I got to be the first person to get statistics for a demon lord (Orcus, again, in this case) published... which apparently frustrated R&D becasue my adventure sort of "scooped" them... they'd been planning to do stuff with the demon lords in Book of Vile Darkness, but that schedule was a LOT more drawn out than a single little adventure in Dungeon.

Anyway, yeah. I've personally scratched my Orcus itch pretty much all I want. Furthermore, since he's the star of so many other sizable adventures, was on the cover of the 4th edition Monster Manual, and is Necromancer Games' mascot... I am indeed content to leave him mostly alone and focus on the other 30 some Demon Lords we have to play with.

[Myrryr]

Play more with Socothbenoth! I love the diplomatic demon lord who isn't all gnashing teeth and wrecking everything in sight. Him and Haagenti both seem much more interesting than the majority of demon lords because they seem so much more willing to be a subversive, corruptive, and affable threat. The villains I love most are the ones you have difficulty hating because while you might hate their goals, even their methods, their actual personality is quite fun.

Like Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2. You hated what he was doing, but he himself was likeable because he was so funny. Or Doctor Doom because he's just so incredibly over-the-top hammy. Hannibal Lector was so liked because he was just a really polite, really courteous gentleman... who also happened to eat and murder people.

But a demon lord like Haagenti seems like a perfect fit for someone who's similar to Hannibal, and Socothbenoth seems like he could be an amazing character similar to Magneto in his message, charisma, even come up with a sympathetic lie to spin (though a lie and not truth like Magneto of course).

Also Nocticula, but I already know you've got stuff in store for the first succubus.

[Slithery D]

Um, Socothbenoth has cordial "let's bang" relationships with all of his freaky peers, but he's pretty clearly supposed to be more of a rapist when it comes to those less powerful. Not sure how affable that is.

[James Jacobs]

Socothbenoth is NOT affable at all, nor is he intended to be a "Graz'zt replacement." He is very much intended to be a villain that is VERY VERY VERY easy to hate, nor is he intended to have a "fun" personality.

Haagenti and Nocticula, sure. I'd even include Abraxas and Kabriri as demon lords who can be thought of as affable... and certainly Pazuzu, who's all about temptation and trickery.

But absolutely not Socothbenoth.

[Myrryr]

James Jacobs wrote:

Socothbenoth is NOT affable at all, nor is he intended to be a "Graz'zt replacement." He is very much intended to be a villain that is VERY VERY VERY easy to hate, nor is he intended to have a "fun" personality.

Haagenti and Nocticula, sure. I'd even include Abraxas and Kabriri as demon lords who can be thought of as affable... and certainly Pazuzu, who's all about temptation and trickery.

But absolutely not Socothbenoth.

Strange... the vibe I got from his write up in Book of the Damned specifically said he was among the most diplomatic of demon lords.

The Book of the Damned: Lords of Chaos wrote:

Socothbenoth is a highly social demon lord, and maintains

more contact with other demon lords than any of his kin.
His greatest alliances are with his sister Nocticula, Pazuzu,
Andirif khu, and Baphomet—all of whom have at times
served Socothbenoth as lovers.

So I guess that's off then?

[James Jacobs]

Myrryr wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Socothbenoth is NOT affable at all, nor is he intended to be a "Graz'zt replacement." He is very much intended to be a villain that is VERY VERY VERY easy to hate, nor is he intended to have a "fun" personality.

Haagenti and Nocticula, sure. I'd even include Abraxas and Kabriri as demon lords who can be thought of as affable... and certainly Pazuzu, who's all about temptation and trickery.

But absolutely not Socothbenoth.

Strange... the vibe I got from his write up in Book of the Damned specifically said he was among the most diplomatic of demon lords.

The Book of the Damned: Lords of Chaos wrote:

Socothbenoth is a highly social demon lord, and maintains

more contact with other demon lords than any of his kin.
His greatest alliances are with his sister Nocticula, Pazuzu,
Andirif khu, and Baphomet—all of whom have at times
served Socothbenoth as lovers.

So I guess that's off then?

Nope; that's not off at all. He's very social, but note that the text specifically mentions his diplomatic contacts are with other demon lords... NOT non-demon lords. You can be highly social and still be a rapist, in other words, and the fact that he's more or less a rapist means that he's not a "fun personality" or "affable."

[LazarX]

James Jacobs wrote:

Socothbenoth is NOT affable at all, nor is he intended to be a "Graz'zt replacement." He is very much intended to be a villain that is VERY VERY VERY easy to hate, nor is he intended to have a "fun" personality.

Haagenti and Nocticula, sure. I'd even include Abraxas and Kabriri as demon lords who can be thought of as affable... and certainly Pazuzu, who's all about temptation and trickery.

But absolutely not Socothbenoth.

Haagenti has a very strong In Nominee identity for me as the ArchDevil of Gluttony. (he started as a lowly demon and got the position by eating several of those who abused him, including the previous holder of the Word of Gluttony.

[Myrryr]

I wouldn't exactly say mass murder is 'fun' either, but it really doesn't impact personality. Whether it's rape or cannibalism, you can still be a nice, congenial person who happens to be a sociopath and just really good at hiding it. That actually makes them far scarier honestly, when someone with a nice outward demeanor hides such a terrible secret, you never suspect them and might even have difficulties trying to take them down because you like them... except for that dark secret you found out. Again, Hannibal is the perfect example of that.

There's a lot of examples of villains like this who are atrocious beings behind closed doors.

That said, if Socothbenoth is not like that, then that's that of course, I only have the very small blurb on him in the Book of the Damned to go by. Just the part about a rapist being incapable of being affable is historically very untrue, as nice as it would be if all rapists were easy to pick out because they were jerks all the time.

(Note, I'm not advocating rape or anything, it's a despicable act, just pointing out that doing evil, even something that bad, does not make you necessarily unlikeable by someone who doesn't know.)

[Zhangar]

Socothbenoth's demonic obedience involves jacking off on a holy book.

Socothbenoth is not a classy fellow.

As the mightiest incubus, I'd expect him to be all about taking what he wants, when he wants it.

I suspect Socothbenoth doesn't accept "no" from anyone he judges weaker than himself.

I'd also expect Secothbenoth to be about as subtle as a rape van with a "RAPE VAN" license plate, because he gives zero damns.

Oddly enough, his Abyssal realm is tiny compared to most of his peers. I'd guess that Socothbenoth is more wrapped up in the pursuit of his pleasures than in furthering any serious ambitions, and he stays on good terms with multiple demon lords so he doesn't have to worry about hostile party crashers.

He's incubusing as hard as incubusly possible, but he's not an idiot.

[Myrryr]

Oh man, that just gives me sooo many visions of him. Now I'm thinking he's Evilly Affable instead of Affably Evil. The type of guy who will sidle right on up to the heroine, paw at her chest and invite her into his windowless white carriage pulled by ponygirls in a fast talking salesman tone. Like Xykon with a insatiable sex drive.

"Hey babe, ditch these holy losers and get in here to ride on me. Or I'll ride you, I'm cool with anything. I've got candy in there too, but only the kind you suck on, nothin' to chew. Don't worry though, you don't need teeth anymore," as the demon lord grins widely at the horrified paladin. "And man, we totally need to you some better armor. I can't even see your nipples in that thing! Bring your brother also, I've got room for two! Call me!" as he drops a Sending scroll into her hands and disappears to his appointment with other Big Bad Evil Things.

Yup. I'm going to have to find a magical radio thing that in a campaign he uses to constantly call and f*ck with the PC's now. Thanks for that. He was specified as claiming Pride as his sin too, so it makes sense he'd be overconfident and not just kill the PC's after having his fun with them.

[Le Petite Mort]

My brother and I wrote a scenario that was played purely as a charity event (auctioned off seats, all went very well) that delved a bit into Aroden and Pharasma. What JJ said about Pharasma being the most powerful actually jibes rather well with what we wrote. Obviously, our musings are not canonical, but I'm thinking we were closer than we realized.

Our story went that Pharasma never could see the future. She remembered it.

You see, the creation myths are all true, to a point. Any given creation myth has happened in one cycle of the Universe or another, and from there history repeats itself fairly well. There is substantial variance in small scale stuff, but big events like The Beginning of All Things, Aroden's 1,000 year golden age, Earthfall, Rovagug, The End, etc. always happen in some manner.

Pharasma, unlike the other deities/entities, does not die at the end of things to be reborn in the next Universe. She's stays alive to witness the next Universe, and the next, eternally watching the same vast drama unfold. When you've seen a play so often, you remember the script.

Except this time, something went wrong. Aroden did not have his 1,000 years. In previous Universes, a chain of events after this period that sparks The End. With no Golden Age, the End is uncertain.

The Final Act has been rewritten, and for the first time in many eternities she watches with rapt attention.

That was more backstory for our scenario though. Our mission focused more on the good old Aroden Whodunnit. Hint: it was the butler.

[Captain Olivia Quinn]

James Jacobs wrote:

Myrryr wrote:

Ok, so question about this: Can you be as powerful as a god, and refuse to be a deity? To say 'oh hell no I don't want to deal with worshippers, just be a super badass that can go on date's with Calistria or beat up Nethys because he's a nerd'. Baba Yaga as an example certainly seems to have power on par with some gods (she certainly makes demon lords look weak with how she dealt with Irrisen and making winter), but is definitely not a deity.

Absolutely. Fun thing about not defining what deities can and can't do is that it puts no limits on the stories.

Yeah! I have a mythic character who is that way. She's got the full range of that power that lets you have domains and grant spells, putting her as equal to a demigod. She can be worshipped, has 4 domains she can grant. Okay, she's a god then. But, no she's not. She actually hates the gods and her idea is that mortals need to end their reliance on the gods, kinda like Rahadoum.

[Therrux]

I asked this question jokingly before but now that I think about it, would there be gods that exist that deal with the more basic and universal aspects of the universe that are beyond mortal concern and control? Such as say a god of the four basic energies of the raw universe i.e. gravity, electro-magnetic, the soft and hard nuclear forces? Maybe a god of the quantum realm, or a god of dimensions?

[LazarX]

Therrux wrote:

I asked this question jokingly before but now that I think about it, would there be gods that exist that deal with the more basic and universal aspects of the universe that are beyond mortal concern and control?

That's what the Old Gods are all about, only change your least text to beyond mortal comprehension, endurance, and sanity.

In the full presence of an Old God, reality itself, recoils.

[Therrux]

LazarX wrote:

Therrux wrote:

I asked this question jokingly before but now that I think about it, would there be gods that exist that deal with the more basic and universal aspects of the universe that are beyond mortal concern and control?

That's what the Old Gods are all about, only change your least text to beyond mortal comprehension, endurance, and sanity.

In the full presence of an Old God, reality itself, recoils.

If reality itself recoils in the presence of the old god wouldn't that mean that they are against the rawest aspects of our universe shouldn't that mean they are against said thing instead of representing it? After all life and death doesn't recoil from Pharasma, instead she embraces them.

[Myrryr]

Depends on which interpretation of the Lovecraft deities you're looking at. Sometimes, time and space warp when within Azathoth's or Yogg Sothoth's presence, unwinding and breaking down the fundamental laws of nature. In a few interpretations those two literally ARE space and time respectively. Really just depends on what mythos you're reading and the actual Lovecraft books on them were very vague (deliberately so). Which makes sense, as a human mind simply cannot actually comprehend the vastness of time or space, so being near something that physically is, or that warps them, would drive you insane by proximity. We have difficulty imagining how many drops of water are in a liter because the brain simply doesn't work at the scale to measure volume, let alone trying to imagine even just how big the ocean is. Then to compare that to all of space? It is, literally, unimaginable. Same thing with time.

Now, whether or not the Outer Gods represent 'beings beyond the material plane' or space and time themselves within the Golarionverse is another question as it hasn't been answered. In my particular canon, they do, but that doesn't mean they are in the actual 'verse.

[LazarX]

Therrux wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Therrux wrote:

I asked this question jokingly before but now that I think about it, would there be gods that exist that deal with the more basic and universal aspects of the universe that are beyond mortal concern and control?

That's what the Old Gods are all about, only change your least text to beyond mortal comprehension, endurance, and sanity.

In the full presence of an Old God, reality itself, recoils.

If reality itself recoils in the presence of the old god wouldn't that mean that they are against the rawest aspects of our universe shouldn't that mean they are against said thing instead of representing it? After all life and death doesn't recoil from Pharasma, instead she embraces them.

What it means is that they are fundamentally alien to both our reality and our sanity. They aren't so much "against" the universe as they simply aren't accomodated by it, nor it by them.

[j b 200]

You could probably ask Zon-Kuthon, he might tell you what it's like standing in the presence of the Outer Gods. That is, after he has flayed your body into a million little pieces while never once nicking a capillary...if you ask real nice.

[Zhangar]

Mr. Jacobs has indicated that whatever the hell happened to Zon-Kuthon, it had nothing to do with the Outer Gods.

There's something else roaming the outer reaches that can FUBAR gods.

[j b 200]

Zhangar wrote:

Mr. Jacobs has indicated that whatever the hell happened to Zon-Kuthon, it had nothing to do with the Outer Gods.

There's something else roaming the outer reaches that can FUBAR gods.

That is news to me. And also pretty scary.

[James Jacobs]

Yup; the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are mostly a Material Plane thing. What Zon-Kuthon ran into was outside the Great Beyond itself... which is still left mysterious. But if what happened to Zon-Kuthon is a good example (it is!) then take care on those kinds of explorations into the furthest reaches of reality.

[Kalindlara]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup; the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are mostly a Material Plane thing. What Zon-Kuthon ran into was outside the Great Beyond itself... which is still left mysterious. But if what happened to Zon-Kuthon is a good example (it is!) then take care on those kinds of explorations into the furthest reaches of reality.

10 out of 7 devourers agree.

[Envall]

If Achaekek can't kill you, is it proof that you are as strong as a god?

[David knott 242]

I don't know -- I played in a campaign where Lamashtu wanted the party dead but generally failed to carry it out. Although the characters in that campaign were overpowered by normal standards, I am sure we were nowhere near Lamashtu's power level.

[Zhangar]

Envall wrote:

If Achaekek can't kill you, is it proof that you are as strong as a god?

Mr. Jacob has indicated that Achaekek sometimes participates in the Test of the Starstone.

So I suppose there is a way to find out.

[LazarX]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup; the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are mostly a Material Plane thing. What Zon-Kuthon ran into was outside the Great Beyond itself... which is still left mysterious. But if what happened to Zon-Kuthon is a good example (it is!) then take care on those kinds of explorations into the furthest reaches of reality.

I always guessed that he was first mate on the Event Horizon :)

[LazarX]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Ooh! I completely forgot about Rasmir there for a second! Is it safe to assume that his followers don't get eaten by Gorum similar to the people of Rahadoum? On the other hand, it feels off to say they get the exct same treatment. They still have a desire for an afterlife, right? What about the man himself? Does he even worship a God?

I'd say it's fair to assume that Groteus gets his share of meals from all types including unbelievers as long as they fit into his desired gourmand list.

Most people generally don't put much thought about the afterlife until it's well too late to do something about it.

[Aelreth]

While the actual source material itself is rather vague on ranking the power of various gods, this is how I usually think of it. If you disagree that is fine, this is just my thought on the subject.

At the bottom you have your Demon Lords and other CR 25-30 creatures. Pretty much anything that can grant spells but still is "mortal" enough to have actual stats.

Then you would have your accended who have, relatively speaking, only been gods for a short amount of time. Those who passed the Star Stone for example have only been Gods for less then human history. But you also have to include Gods like Besmara who "was a powerful water spirit with an affinity for manipulating sea monsters". All of these Gods have reached a level of power that defies having any kind of stats. But are still relativly minor in the grand cosmos.

Above them you have Gods like Abadar(cities), Torag(dwarves), Gorum(war), and Shelyn(love). Pretty much just any gods that either a) is credited with creating a whole race, or b) handles a very wide but still mortal concept. After all, if there were no dwarves, Torag couldn't be the God of the Dwarves. With out mortals you would have no cities, war, love, etc. Meaning no Gods to manage the affairs of those portfolios.

Beyond them you have the like of Asmodeus(Hell) and Sarenrae(Angles). Asmodeus who rules over all of Hell, and Sarenrae who stood against Rovagug. These gods go unchallenged by other gods.

At the VERY top you have gods who are the masters of a fundamental force in the universe. This is were Gods like Nethys (Magic), Gozeh(sea and sky), and Pharasma (life/death/fate) reside. They control fundamental parts of reality itself. If they had names I would through the gods of Gravity, Radiation, and Electromagnetism in this catagory.

Now I realize this is in NO WAY perfect OR complete. But it IS a starting point.