alchemist kit deprivation for an alchemist - consequences

[Tommaso Gollini]

what happens to an alchemist if the "opponents" take away from him his alchemist kit ?
he cant do anything ?
bombs ?
extracts ?
mutagens ?

imho is basically powerless

[Darrell Impey UK]

Once he runs out of what he has prepared, yes. Like taking away a Wizard's spellbook.

[Tommaso Gollini]

but if he has prepared his stuff and you take out his kit, where is he storing the prepared stuff ?

[Mathmuse]

Tommaso Gollini wrote:

but if he has prepared his stuff and you take out his kit, where is he storing the prepared stuff ?

They are probably stored on his belt, pouches, pockets, or bandolier for easy access. In the character sheet of an alchemist, such as the iconic alchemist Damiel, they are listed separately. This is necessary so that we known which extracts and mutagens the alchemist already prepared, but it also implies they are not in the kit.

Bombs, on the other hand, are treated as being made right before they are used, so stealing the kit would stop bomb-throwing immediately.

According to Ultimate Equipment, an alchemy crafting kit is like a spell component pouch.

Ultimate Equipment, Tools and Skill Kits wrote:

An alchemist with an alchemy crafting kit is assumed to have all the material components needed for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those components that have a specific cost. An alchemy crafting kit provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks. (This item was called an “alchemist's kit” in the Advanced Player's Guide, and was renamed to avoid confusion with this book's pre-selected set of adventuring gear called an “alchemist's kit.”)

His formula book is also separate from the kit, just like a wizard's spell book is separate from his spell component pouch.

I once played an alchemist on an extended exploration campaign with no access to a market for alchemical materials. I roleplayed him testing local plants and minerals for alchemical properties to keep his kit stocked. In addition, I gave him ranks in Craft(Pottery) so that he could replace his glass vials with clay vials. That was for fun, because the GM was not tracking ingredients so long as the alchemist had his kit.

[Tommaso Gollini]

thanks Mathmuse, very interesting suggestions :)

so if an enemy wants to "sunder" the alchemist kit, wich kind of hardness/hp you will give to it ?
the weight is 5 lbs, so it can be light metal, leather or wood
i will say 2-6 points hardness and max 5-8 hp

[Rub-Eta]

There is no RAW on this.

The "kit" isn't a single item, it consist of several different, so you can't sunder the entirety of it in one hit. And they probably keep the kit in their backpack anyway. The prepared stuff, however: Extracts are by default created in glass vials, can be done in iron vials though if bought. They're probably not stored in their backpack as they need to quickly retrive them (as part of the standard action). Same for mutagens.
Bombs are created on the spot, meaning that if you want to sunder the ability to use bomb, you need to sunder their components.

If you're trying to protect yourself, don't worry, most DMs won't bother.
If you're a DM trying to screw your players: don't. As there is no rules for this, it's up to you what roles and numbers are used. And as there's no rules as to where you need to keep anything of it, your player will have a way to protest. All in all, you will have a hard time making the player think that this is fair (because who runs up to a guy and starts sundering his stuff insted of killing him? who knows what is needed to be destroyed to disable the alchemist? it all seems extremely meta) and it's just not worth failing at something like this as it can make the player hate you, like, for real.

[Tommaso Gollini]

well, you are right rub-eta, at any level.
but i am looking to find the way to equalize the alchemist with the gunslinger

by no mean the slinger need to take in account of his bullets, paying exhorbitants sums to be just a bad fighter when the alchemist can survive without bothering at all on 20 bombs /day plus spells and such

the only way as GM is to give free way to the slinger, reduce the costs of the ammo to a real minimum (say negligible amount) so he can be on par with the alchemist, or i can give more hard life to the alchemist.
the difference between the 2 classes is HUGE, really, in terms of viability of the core of the class.

one goes around for ages without even bothering where he take his components, the other need to beg for money just to fire 1 shot..

[Weables]

except they arent a 'bad fighter' they are exceptional and known for destroying large targets in one round. there are many 'help, my gunslinger does too much damage' threads. read up on them a bit before you feel like nerfing an alchemist.

[Tommaso Gollini]

weables, i am not talking about a 20lvl uperpumped and mechanically built archetipe (and i have read all these posts, and all of them i laugh, they are basically saying that the only way to play a gunslinger is go to with 2 pistols reducing a class to a single archetipe with all the feats already wrote in stone... boring as a s#&#...)

i mean the average joe with a gun

think about a lvl 3 alchemist and a lvl 3 gunslinger
and we can do the math any time you want, including the fact that into a dungeon, with a prolonged days raid, the slinger will be over with ammo after 1-2 days, the alchemist will never run out of nothing since he cant be "nerfed" on the same basis...

[Weirdo]

It sounds like your main problem is the high cost of gunslinger ammo.

The easy solution is to stop tracking basic ammo. If the gunslinger isn't overpowering your game it shouldn't be a problem.

Or if you actually enjoy that kind of low-level resource management then just extend it. Rule that an alchemy crafting kit has to be refreshed every so often. Spell component pouch too, to be fair. Keep in mind though that the alchemist is generally pretty well balanced without adding extra costs, so if you make it more expensive (in gold and carrying capacity) to be an alchemist, people won't want to play it. If you think the gunslinger is too expensive I would suggest reducing the cost of bullets rather than making the alchemist costly to match.

Also, keep in mind that gunslingers are usually relatively weak up until level 5, when they get a big boost due to a combination of gun training and having picked up core feats. If you spend a lot of time in low level play you might need to make more substantial alterations to the class - though you also mentioned an alchemist with 20 bombs/day plus extracts and that doesn't happen until quite high levels so I'm not sure whether there's any particular level of comparison.

[Nazerith]

Mathmuse wrote:

Bombs, on the other hand, are treated as being made right before they are used, so stealing the kit would stop bomb-throwing immediately.

Nope, you can use bombs for the rest of the day if you follow the recommendations from the Alchemist's abilities:

Quote:

Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

So if you keep your vial and potions separate from your pouch all you need to do is infuse the vials with mana then throw.

[Darrell Impey UK]

Also, if you feel that a class is overpowered and want to nerf it in your games, that's your right as a GM. But for heaven's sake, do it with your players' knowledge before the campaign starts rather than by crippling a character mid story.

[Tommaso Gollini]

thanks naz for the specification about bombs.
and yes weirdo, i am going toward the point where the gunslinger will not really need to think about basic ammos (no more than an archer does) and just take care (and a really lower level than the one suggested on the UCB) of the "special ammos"
i play a lot at low levels (for lows i mean 1-5) then a bit more 6-10 and i have an ustalav campaign (the carrion crown) where the pg are 13 (and i have an alchemist with 20 bombs/day, fire, acid, curse, dispel and such, really a nasty fellas, even if not min maxed or powerplayed).

in a campaign i am starting as player, i tried the gunslinger and i found out the real difficulty of playing in a "low gun level" as per UCB.. that is insane costs, (1.1g x single shot if you craft yourself the bullets and the powder).
From this my nastyness against the "i-dont-care-about-my-equipment" alchemist in my ustalav group... and wanted to give him a hard day in renchurch..
but retribution isnt really useful.
i will ask my DM to sensibly lower the ammo costs so i can play a gunslinger in his campaign, and i will lower it for sure in all my 3 campaigns
thanks all for the contributes