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There is a misunderstanding that crops up periodically. I've seen it twice today. So I thought this thread might help spread the word.
Here is the text from the PFSRPGG.
If you play a 1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to a newly created character of your very own. If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you choose one of your characters to assign the chronicle to at the end of adventure, and then apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. You may not assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher. If you have multiple Chronicle sheets from pregenerated characters, they are applied to your character’s Chronicle sheet stack in the order played when your character reaches the appropriate level, even if this would advance your character several levels.
You may also opt instead to apply the Chronicle sheets earned with a non-1st-level pregenerated character to a 1st-level character with the amount of gp gained reduced, and any character specific boons earned must wait to be utilized until the character is of the same level as the subtier on the Chronicle sheet unless otherwise noted. You do not lose access to any of the Prestige Points, or items listed on the Chronicle sheets that were earned during the adventure, but you do forego downtime.
- 1. You may use a pregenerated character for any scenario for which the pregen is in tier.
2. You do not need to pretend that you forgot your character, or that your dog ate your character, or any other such nonsense.
3. You may apply the credit from a scenario that you played a pregen.
4. The only restriction is that you cannot apply credit from a pregen to a character whose level is as high as (or higher than) the level of the pregen you played.
5. You can save the chronicle to apply to a lower-level character when they reach a sufficiently high level, or
6. You can apply the chronicle to a 1st-level character immediately.
7. Both choices have upsides and downsides.
If you are wondering about sanctioned modules and APs, that is covered also.
For modules and Adventure Path content below 9th level, if you do not have a character in the correct level range, you may use a Pathfinder Society pregenerated character, available on paizo.com or the 1st- and 7th-level iconic characters on pages 275–297 of the Pathfinder RPG NPC Codex. You must apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you may apply credit from the pregenerated character to one of your 1st-level characters, with the gp gained reduced to 1,398 gp (or 699 gp for slow advancement track characters). If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you may apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. Equipment listed on the pregenerated character sheet may only be sold to clear conditions, such as death, during the play of the module and any remaining gold does not carry over at the end of the module.
- The rules are almost the same, but note that some of the pregens from the NPC Codex are also legal choices.
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I do believe Mike Brock once very specifically posted on these boards tat in order to play the pregen you must not have a character in tier. But as he is no longer the campaign coordinator, if that ruling did not make into printed material then do what you want.
It would not be wise to do that if the next campaign coordinator agrees with the ruling. At that point, any character played under those circumstances would technically become illegal for play.
I realize mechanically the impact is largely invisible, but there is a reason the rule was in place, right?
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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I do believe Mike Brock once very specifically posted on these boards tat in order to play the pregen you must not have a character in tier. But as he is no longer the campaign coordinator, if that ruling did not make into printed material then do what you want.It would not be wise to do that if the next campaign coordinator agrees with the ruling.
Rulings of Campaign Coordinators remain valid unless explicitly revoked. For instance most rulings by Josh Frost remain valid till this day.
The you must not have a character in tier post however was revoked by Mike himself a long time ago. You just cannot assign credit to a character in tier (AKA, the character shouldn't get the rewards if you choose a pregen to evade the danger).
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I do believe Mike Brock once very specifically posted on these boards tat in order to play the pregen you must not have a character in tier. But as he is no longer the campaign coordinator, if that ruling did not make into printed material then do what you want.It would not be wise to do that if the next campaign coordinator agrees with the ruling. At that point, any character played under those circumstances would technically become illegal for play.
I realize mechanically the impact is largely invisible, but there is a reason the rule was in place, right?
Well, that's just it. He believes Mike said something sometime that's not in line with what the language has been in the Guide to play for the last 2 or 3 seasons at least. The player following the rules in the current Guide will be legal, and those rules do permit you to play a pregen in a scenario even if you have a character in tier.
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I do believe Mike Brock once very specifically posted on these boards tat in order to play the pregen you must not have a character in tier. But as he is no longer the campaign coordinator, if that ruling did not make into printed material then do what you want.It would not be wise to do that if the next campaign coordinator agrees with the ruling.Rulings of Campaign Coordinators remain valid unless explicitly revoked. For instance most rulings by Josh Frost remain valid till this day.
The you must not have a character in tier post however was revoked by Mike himself a long time ago. You just cannot assign credit to a character the same level or higher than the pregen.
Correct, with one minor change.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The closest thing I know of to a ruling on this is this comment by Mike Brock.
In the context of that thread, it looks to me like he's saying that you are free to play a pregen in a module if you want to, even if you have characters in-tier.
Given that the entire thread is about modules, either he's allowing it, or he's massively mistaken about the subject of the thread. But he's a bit vague.
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The closest thing I know of to a ruling on this is this comment by Mike Brock.
In the context of that thread, it looks to me like he's saying that you are free to play a pregen in a module if you want to, even if you have characters in-tier.
Given that the entire thread is about modules, either he's allowing it, or he's massively mistaken about the subject of the thread. But he's a bit vague.
Can you provide a link to that thread please
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Can you provide a link to that thread pleaseThe closest thing I know of to a ruling on this is this comment by Mike Brock.
In the context of that thread, it looks to me like he's saying that you are free to play a pregen in a module if you want to, even if you have characters in-tier.
Given that the entire thread is about modules, either he's allowing it, or he's massively mistaken about the subject of the thread. But he's a bit vague.
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If someone's character isn't there you should be able to check to see if its a legalish character somehow: games reported on the webstite, you saw the chronicles last week, you wrote the chronicles last week...
The most important part of a character is the character sheet and thats not officially tracked. Printing off a characters profile from the paizo site makes a character just as valid as the drink stained paper copy i've had for 5 levels.
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Playing the pregen isnt necessarily the final option or just cause you dont have something in tier with you.
I GMed a table of Severing Ties which had a newer player at the table who was going to play his level 2 Paladin. I explained some very broad basics of the scenario (lots of lying, etc) and told him that depending on what they did, he would very likely need an atonement at the end of the scenario, which would really hamper his character if he could even afford to have it done at that point.
I suggested he might be better off playing a pregen and applying it to a different character. He grabbed the Reiko, the Ninja. I almost sent him back for another one (lol), but he had fun with it, got his credit, and didnt have to atone at the end of it.
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So, question. If a player does have a Level 2 or higher Character, and wants to play in a 1st-5th Tier game, (either Sub Tier), can they opt to play a Level 4 Pregen, (as opposed to the Level 1 version)?
The prior ruling was no, you could only play a higher level Pregen if you did not have another legal character that could be played in that Tier, and this seems to imply that is being reversed.
I'd allow it anyway, (barring cheating-like no risk options, never seen it done, or the more common for online play grabbing multiple Chronicles at once), but just curious.
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That has been the case since the beginning of Season 5.
The language is pretty much unchanged since then (except for the language about modules).
I don't see anything that restricts what level of pregens may be played.
Edit: here is the language from the Season 5 guide:
If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.
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I dont know if its stated anywhere but I would say you play the version matching the tier your table is playing.. ie low tier would be level 1 and high tier level 4.So, question. If a player does have a Level 2 or higher Character, and wants to play in a 1st-5th Tier game, (either Sub Tier), can they opt to play a Level 4 Pregen, (as opposed to the Level 1 version)?
The prior ruling was no, you could only play a higher level Pregen if you did not have another legal character that could be played in that Tier, and this seems to imply that is being reversed.
I'd allow it anyway, (barring cheating-like no risk options, never seen it done, or the more common for online play grabbing multiple Chronicles at once), but just curious.
No, you play a character that's in tier for the scenario. You can't know what sub-tier the table is in if whatever you're playing hasn't been calculated yet.
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No, you play a character that's in tier for the scenario. You can't know what sub-tier the table is in if whatever you're playing hasn't been calculated yet.I dont know if its stated anywhere but I would say you play the version matching the tier your table is playing.. ie low tier would be level 1 and high tier level 4.So, question. If a player does have a Level 2 or higher Character, and wants to play in a 1st-5th Tier game, (either Sub Tier), can they opt to play a Level 4 Pregen, (as opposed to the Level 1 version)?
The prior ruling was no, you could only play a higher level Pregen if you did not have another legal character that could be played in that Tier, and this seems to imply that is being reversed.
I'd allow it anyway, (barring cheating-like no risk options, never seen it done, or the more common for online play grabbing multiple Chronicles at once), but just curious.
This has been debated before and there has been no agreement or clarification, safest practice is to pick the pregen that most closely matches the sub-tier of the rest of the table. (But that's not necessarily the only reading).
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Pick the pregen level you want, that's the rule. Everyone is lv1? Play the lv4 if you feel like it. nothing illegal with that. Same thing as bring a personal lv5 to a group of lv1s.fixed that for you...
Always have to clear it with the judge...
No you don't. You're bringing a legal character to the table. NOTHING stops you from playing a legal character in a game. NOTHING stops you from bringing a lv4 pregen to the table to play and the rest of the people who show up are lv1. The GM can't MAKE you play something else just like they can't MAKE you play a lv1 pregen if you were bringing a lv5 to a table of 1s. The only thing to "clear with the judge" is if it's a legal character, and the pregens are ALWAYS legal no matter how much illegal stuff they have.
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No you don't. You're bringing a legal character to the table. NOTHING stops you from playing a legal character in a game. NOTHING stops you from bringing a lv4 pregen to the table to play and the rest of the people who show up are lv1. The GM can't MAKE you play something else just like they can't MAKE you play a lv1 pregen if you were bringing a lv5 to a table of 1s. The only thing to "clear with the judge" is if it's a legal character, and the pregens are ALWAYS legal no matter how much illegal stuff they have.Pick the pregen level you want, that's the rule. Everyone is lv1? Play the lv4 if you feel like it. nothing illegal with that. Same thing as bring a personal lv5 to a group of lv1s.fixed that for you...
Always have to clear it with the judge...
ChessPwn, you are correct, the GM cannot force you to play a level 1 pregen if you want to play a level 4 in a tier 1-5, even if everyone is playing a level 1 character.
However, the GM also doesnt have to sit you if you refuse to play the level 1 in favor of the level 4. I certainly wouldnt sit you if youre refusing to play the level 1 after I requested it since everyone else is in that tier.
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Could you and would you if the player wanted to play a level 4 character instead of a level 1? (Assume you knew he had both.) Are the rules different for pregens?No you don't. You're bringing a legal character to the table. NOTHING stops you from playing a legal character in a game. NOTHING stops you from bringing a lv4 pregen to the table to play and the rest of the people who show up are lv1. The GM can't MAKE you play something else just like they can't MAKE you play a lv1 pregen if you were bringing a lv5 to a table of 1s. The only thing to "clear with the judge" is if it's a legal character, and the pregens are ALWAYS legal no matter how much illegal stuff they have.Pick the pregen level you want, that's the rule. Everyone is lv1? Play the lv4 if you feel like it. nothing illegal with that. Same thing as bring a personal lv5 to a group of lv1s.fixed that for you...
Always have to clear it with the judge...
ChessPwn, you are correct, the GM cannot force you to play a level 1 pregen if you want to play a level 4 in a tier 1-5, even if everyone is playing a level 1 character.
However, the GM also doesnt have to sit you if you refuse to play the level 1 in favor of the level 4. I certainly wouldnt sit you if youre refusing to play the level 1 after I requested it since everyone else is in that tier.
No, the 'rule' should not be different for pregens, but the circumstances are different, IMO.
If the player is wanting to play their own level 4 character while everyone else plays level 1, then I dont think anyone could or would hold that against them, presuming they are willing to hold back a bit so the level 4 doesnt absolutely dominate the scenario. This could also be affected by what kind of character they are playing. A level 4 bard playing with a bunch of 1s isnt likely going to impact the scenario that much more than a level 1 bard would anyway.
If the player is wanting to play a level 4 pregen while everyone else is going to play a level 1 character, thats a bit different. I would be asking the player to please play a level 1 pregen and if they refused and dont have a good reason (if they have a character in tier, they could just play that) for needing that level 4 beyond 'I just want to', I think that counts as being a jerk. Seems like the only reason then is that theyd want to stomp the scenario and be the star, both of which the rest of the table can live without.
That said, if you want to play a level 4 and everyone else is cool with it, then I likely wouldnt actually boot you, but Id express my feelings of how poorly the table will go to the other players before asking them their opinions.
Obviously there are going to be exceptions to any rule, so dont take these examples as a hard and fast way to handle it. PFS should be about making sure people have fun. If one person is going to take away from that (which might be the case here, depending on the circumstances), then you might have to ask/tell them to sit this one out.
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No you don't. You're bringing a legal character to the table. NOTHING stops you from playing a legal character in a game. NOTHING stops you from bringing a lv4 pregen to the table to play and the rest of the people who show up are lv1. The GM can't MAKE you play something else just like they can't MAKE you play a lv1 pregen if you were bringing a lv5 to a table of 1s. The only thing to "clear with the judge" is if it's a legal character, and the pregens are ALWAYS legal no matter how much illegal stuff they have.Pick the pregen level you want, that's the rule. Everyone is lv1? Play the lv4 if you feel like it. nothing illegal with that. Same thing as bring a personal lv5 to a group of lv1s.fixed that for you...
Always have to clear it with the judge...
ChessPwn, you are correct, the GM cannot force you to play a level 1 pregen if you want to play a level 4 in a tier 1-5, even if everyone is playing a level 1 character.
However, the GM also doesnt have to sit you if you refuse to play the level 1 in favor of the level 4. I certainly wouldnt sit you if youre refusing to play the level 1 after I requested it since everyone else is in that tier.
Pregens are characters the player is bringing and are handled the same way as bringing a self made character. You seriously would force a player not to play because he's playing a legal character that you don't like? WOW, just WOW. Like is that even allowed? If that's how things are being ran by you I hope I never have to play at your table. I'm appalled that, "I want to play this character" isn't a good reason to you for playing a character.
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"I want to play this character" when I suggest you could play the level 1 version instead (cause I bring pregens with me, too) sounds more like "Cause I want to be the center of attention at the table" than anything else. The rest of the table can live without that.
That said, read my last post. That clarifies it a bit.
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There are lots of reasons for wanting to play a 4th-level pregen instead of a 1st-level pregen. There are just as many reasons to want to play a 1st-level pregen instead of a 4th-level pregen. As long as the player in question is working with the rest of the table to engender a fun play experience, I don't really care what people play.
I have made suggestions before, as a GM, based on my knowledge of the scenario, but ultimately what characters the players bring to the table is their prerogative.
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No, you play a character that's in tier for the scenario. You can't know what sub-tier the table is in if whatever you're playing hasn't been calculated yet.I don't know if it's stated anywhere but I would say you play the version matching the tier your table is playing.. ie low tier would be level 1 and high tier level 4.If a player does have a Level 2 or higher Character, and wants to play in a 1st-5th Tier game, (either Sub Tier), can they opt to play a Level 4 Pregen, (as opposed to the Level 1 version)?
The prior ruling was no, you could only play a higher level Pregen if you did not have another legal character that could be played in that Tier, and this seems to imply that is being reversed.
I'm one of those GMs that believes the level of the Pregen is determined by the APL of the party it's joining.
If 5 players show up to a 1-5 scenario with nothing but 1s and 2s, I'm not letting a walkin pick up the level 4 Pregen.
The only counter argument I've heard to such a practice involves wonky situations with 1 or 2 real players and a group of Pregens, at which point it just becomes a case by case basis.
I'm also not going to force anyone to play a Pregen if they don't want to.
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"I want to play this character" when I suggest you could play the level 1 version instead (cause I bring pregens with me, too) sounds more like "Cause I want to be the center of attention at the table" than anything else. The rest of the table can live without that.
That said, read my last post. That clarifies it a bit.
(I had read your second post before responding, just was more precise to respond to the first)
So if I bring in a legal lv4 character and everyone else is lv1 and I have a level 1 character option you would kick me from playing if "I want to play my legal lv4 character" instead of the lv1 option?
It couldn't be that they wanted to be a better support to the party, or that they want to make sure the team doesn't die, or that they want to have more options of things to do that come in after lv1. Nope, if they are wanting to play a lv4 with lv1s then they could only "want to be the center of attention at the table"
And what about the opposite? Bringing a lv1 to a table of lv5s? will you kick me then too? for "wanting to play my lv1" instead of a different character? The reason for that is probably because they "want to be the center of attention at the table" too.
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Player: looking around the table and seeing the other 5 players running four 2nd level PCs and a 3rd level bard. "I'm going to run the 4th level Iconic Ranger."
Judge: doing a quick math check and realizing that this will push the party into Tier 4-5...
You can round 2.5 to either 2 or 3. Not an issue. ;)
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So if I bring in a legal lv4 character and everyone else is lv1 and I have a level 1 character option you would kick me from playing if "I want to play my legal lv4 character" instead of the lv1 option?
It couldn't be that they wanted to be a better support to the party, or that they want to make sure the team doesn't die, or that they want to have more options of things to do that come in after lv1. Nope, if they are wanting to play a lv4 with lv1s then they could only "want to be the center of attention at the table"
There is one coordinator in our area who stubbornly refuses to seat people with characters that are out of tier. The two encounters I've had with him involved bringing a level 9 to a subtier 5-6 game and bringing a level 5 to a subtier 1-2 game. He will insist you use a Pregen or he won't sit you.
So, people like that do exist. They're extreme, but if they're the only GM at that particular event, it's their way or no way.
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Player: looking around the table and seeing the other 5 players running four 2nd level PCs and a 3rd level bard. "I'm going to run the 4th level Iconic Ranger."
Judge: doing a quick math check and realizing that this will push the party into Tier 4-5... and this is a bad scenario to play up in. "I think you should probably play a 1st level PC, I mea-"
Player: "WOW, just WOW. Like is that even allowed? If that's how things are being ran by you I hope I never have to play at your table. I'm appalled that, "I want to play this character" isn't a good reason to you for playing a character."...
Wow... just Wow...The judge hopefully has a little more knowledge of what is going on in this game - and hopefully will be trying to run a "fun" game for everyone... and Maybe, just maybe, we should ask his advice...
If he's a "bad judge"... why are you even playing at the table? Life is too short for bad gaming.
Dude, way to misquote me. My appall was at a GM kicking a player for still wanting to play their character of choice. A GM offering a suggestion is fine. But kicking a player for not following that? That's horrible. And some of us aren't so lucky to have multiple tables running the scenario we want to play in on the same day. Some of us aren't lucky enough to have a choice, there's only the one table being ran. So if you want to play at all you put up with a "bad GM". Because if he follows PFS rules of running the scenario it's not an issue.
As to the way I would run it at a table? I normally arrive with all the Ionics (all levels) in a folder - and will pass it over to anyone to leaf thru to figure out what they want to run. If one of the Players has his heart set on running a 4th level, I might even suggest to the other players that they look over their PC selections and see if we, as a group, help him get his desire. Can we beef up the party? Maybe by one or more of the other players swapping PCs to play something higher too.
So you haven't said what you'd do if he had his heart set but the others had their hearts set on a specific lv1. Would you refuse the higher player from playing?
I have seen someone push players off a table (because they wouldn't play up) by insisting on running a PC that pushed up the Tier of the table. I would hate to see this happen with someone selecting a higher level Iconic in order to push the Sub-Tier up...
If a player would rather not play then play with the party as is that's their choice. Each person's choice is if they want to play a legal character with the other legal characters the other people at the table brought. If you'd rather not play then you're picking the option you'll enjoy more.
Now if the GM kicked someone for not playing up then again, bad GM.|
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So if I bring in a legal lv4 character and everyone else is lv1 and I have a level 1 character option you would kick me from playing if "I want to play my legal lv4 character" instead of the lv1 option?
It couldn't be that they wanted to be a better support to the party, or that they want to make sure the team doesn't die, or that they want to have more options of things to do that come in after lv1. Nope, if they are wanting to play a lv4 with lv1s then they could only "want to be the center of attention at the table"There is one coordinator in our area who stubbornly refuses to seat people with characters that are out of tier. The two encounters I've had with him involved bringing a level 9 to a subtier 5-6 game and bringing a level 5 to a subtier 1-2 game. He will insist you use a Pregen or he won't sit you.
So, people like that do exist. They're extreme, but if they're the only GM at that particular event, it's their way or no way.
Is that even allowed in PFS? Refusing someone the ability to play a Legal character if they are wanting to play? What next? Not allowing a person to play because their wanting to play a Dwarf sorcerer and that's to OP? Not allowing a person to play because their character is a nagaji and everyone else is at least part human?
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What next? Not allowing a person to play because their wanting to play a Dwarf sorcerer and that's to OP? Not allowing a person to play because their character is a nagaji and everyone else is at least part human?
If you can explain how either of those cases would be detrimental to the enjoyment of the table, then go right ahead and refuse that player a seat. Of course, I find it impossible for those examples to be the reason, so this should never be a problem.
The event coordinator always has the right to make exclusions if allowing players would result in a bad table experience. The fact that we use this sparingly does not mean it isn't allowed.
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The event coordinator always has the right to make exclusions if allowing players would result in a bad table experience. The fact that we use this sparingly does not mean it isn't allowed.
I really think we (the PFS community) should discourage that practice. One of the things that drew me to PFS was that I could play various classes and races that were not available at any home games that I participated in (that and the lack of crazy house rules that I often found in home games as well). My first character was a gunslinger. She was a lot of fun. If my first GM had said, "Sorry, I don't think gunslingers lead to a positive table experience; you need to play something else," then I might not have returned.
Edit: I hope you see my post as was intended—I'm mostly agreeing with what you said, TOZ.