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I recently received Occult Adventures as a birthday gift (my wife regrets every Pathfinder gift she gets me), and I was greatly pleased by the classes included. For my low-magic fantasy western campaign setting, the occult classes fill a perfect void left by the removal of 90% of all of the arcane spellcasters.
One thing I was disappointed with was the lack of a gun-using archetype, so I've decided to work on one, but I'd like help.
The purpose of this thread is to get everyone together and brainstorm one of the following:
- A hybrid class (to include a MultiClass Archetype, since they predated the Hybrid Classes)
- An archetype for one of the new occult classes
- An archetype for the gunslinger itself
- Or all of the above!
I was thinking personally of maybe mixing the Occultist and the Gunslinger. Originally I was tempted to change some of the Spellgun Magus MCA abilities to fit with the Occult theme, blending it with the Mindblade Magus archetype or the Battle Host Occultist archetype.
Any other ideas?
I like the idea of a gunslinger who contacts with the spirit in his gun. I suppose that mechanically, this would be a gunslinger with some occultist abilities.
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Here's my quick, rough-draft take on an Occultist archetype:
Class Skills: An occult gunman adds Acrobatics (Dex) and Knowledge (engineering) (Int) as class skills. This alters the occultist's class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An occult gunman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, firearms, and light armor. This replaces the occultist's weapon and armor proficiency.
Occult Gun (Su): At 1st level, an occult gunman forms a supernatural bond with a specific firearm. This selection is permanent and can never be changed. The bonded firearm is masterwork quality and the occult gunman begins play with it at no cost.
The bonded firearm is immune to the broken condition for as long as the occult gunman lives. If an occult gunman dies and is restored to life, the bonded firearm is also restored if it was destroyed. Any magic powers associated with an occult gunman's bonded firearm function only for the occult gunman; in the hands of anyone else it is only a masterwork firearm. The bonded firearm starts as an implement for any single school of magic at 1st level, and gains access to additional schools of magic at 2nd, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, granting the occult gunman access to base focus powers and resonant powers accordingly. The occult gunman's bonded firearm serves as his implement component to cast occultist spells of all the schools that he knows.
However, he must split his mental focus among the schools he knows for the purpose of determining resonant powers and using focus powers, even though he possesses only one physical item as an implement.
This ability alters implements, mental focus, spellcasting, and implement mastery.
Occult Gunman: The occult gunman gains the Gunsmithing feat.
Spell Casting: An occult gunman adds the following spells to his list at the indicated levels: 1st level–abundant ammunition, damp powder, fabricate bullets†; 2nd level–bullet shield, destabilize powder, recoil fire†, stabilize powder†; 3rd level–flash fire; 4th level–named bullet; 6th level–named bullet (greater).
Occult Grit (Ex): At 2nd level an occult gunman gains a number of grit points equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) and gains the use of a single gunslinger deed. He can select any deed that a gunslinger of his occultist level could use. At 5th level, and every three levels beyond 5th, the occult gunman gains another point of grit and another gunslinger deed that a gunslinger of his level could use. If he already has levels in gunslinger, he gains a bonus to the maximum amount of grit he can have each day, equal to his Intelligence bonus (if any) but gains no extra grit as the start of each day.
This ability replaces magic item skill, object reading, and outside contact.
Bonus Feats: At 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th levels, an occult gunman gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat or grit feats. The occult gunman must meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
This ability replaces shift focus, magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles.
I'll soon be publishing a gunslinging magus called the Shootist for my Old West setting called Gothic Western, and will be an included archetype (of 5 archetypes) for the first product, a one-shot module, Horror on Gila Express which entirely occurs aboard a steam train.
Interestingly, the Gothic Western setting is heavily influenced by eldritch artifacts and ancient aberrations, very much fitting Occult Adventures in flavor and theme.
a nifty ability for a gun-using Occultist would be that if he puts mental focus in the gun, it counts as having the Lucky property, counting the points of mental focus as Grit
I'm working on a class called the reaver that's all about stealing energy and using it. It has a haunted gun archetype that can steal life force from enemies and turn it into nether bullets.
As for your archetype, I have many issues with it. If you're using Ultimate Combat firearms, giving a free masterwork gun that can never gain the broken condition is rather game breaking. Firearm touch attacks are balanced by the downside of misfires. Your archetype's gun is immune to misfires. Giving a free masterwork gun is also not a good idea. Firearms are valuable. Masterwork weapons are valuable. And your archetype lets you pick ANY firearm they want. Gunslingers and gunslinger MCA give specific selections of battered guns for a reason.
The archetype also doesn't use any of the occultist's class features. In fact, it throws away most of them, which isn't cool.
Gunslingers clear misfires by basically slapping he thing, it's not really a balance issue unless you are salty about a lot of attacks landing - which most people are. A class feature breaking WBL is something that happens in core in more than one class, and continues to be a popular theme. It's actually a really low-cost WBL impact compared to say a paladin (Rich Parents trait vs free weapon enchantments). If you are allowing guns you just need to deal with guns landing a lot of HP out (and quickly with cheese). If anything, guns are better balanced crossbows with how terrible crossbows are.
I played and ran for gunslingers and carefully studied their design and the design of firearms. I've even written articles on how they're balanced (and why even with misfires, it's poor design). I and many others made arguments explaining in detail why misfires are not trivial, even with quick clear. Please don't make me explain that all over again. Even assuming a gunslinger always having enough grit to use quick clear, a misfire can cripple a gunslinger's action economy in the heat of battle.
As far as I know, the only core class that gets a free masterwork weapon at 1st level is the wizard via arcane bond. Arcane bond is not a well written ability, so much that it required multiple erratas. Even then, the arcane bond handicaps the wizard. And don't get me started on Rich Parents.
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Reworking some of the deeds could also give some interesting flavour to the class. This is just my idea, based on a comic but... What if the occult gunslinger spent some of their occult grit or had a magic spell to change the properties of the bullets in the gun. I mean like the normal bullets turning into silver, gold or cold iron inside the gun. Any other ideas?
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For this situation, I would turn to comics in the weird west style, like some of the later Jonah hex books(before he basically became a gunslinger/superhero(I would use some details from his run in vertigo(that time when he was fighting lovecraftian horrors)) or elements from the Deadlands rpg.
A cursed gunslinger could be interesting, bound to a weapon full of hate and malice that seeks to destroy the lives of anyone it comes into contact with.
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A cursed gunslinger could be interesting, bound to a weapon full of hate and malice that seeks to destroy the lives of anyone it comes into contact with.
Honestly, if one wants to remove misfires, a good idea is implementing a misfire replacement. Perhaps a haunted gun that curses the occult gunslinger instead of breaking the gun. The occultist gains a haunted deed akin to quick clear that quickly pacifies the spirit at the cost of some sacrifice.
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a nifty ability for a gun-using Occultist would be that if he puts mental focus in the gun, it counts as having the Lucky property, counting the points of mental focus as Grit
I like that. Let's figure out a way to implement it.
As for the masterwork quality issue, that was pretty much copy/paste from the Battle Host archetype (they get a free MW weapon, armor, or shield). I can easily remove the masterwork quality and have it closer to the stock gunslinger.
Having a variant to misfire would be interesting, but I'm not sure if it would fit the current archetype. We can of course keep track of these ideas for other archetypes for future use.
I would love some customized deeds, but haven't been able to think of any. Any ideas?
It might help to ask yourself what exactly you're looking for in an occult gunslinger. Quite frankly, anyone could make an occult themed gunslinger character by refluffing the grit mechanic as life energy stolen from enemies you crit and kill. Knowing the scope and design goals is important.
the movie version of Jonah Hex kind of fits this
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A cursed gunslinger could be interesting, bound to a weapon full of hate and malice that seeks to destroy the lives of anyone it comes into contact with.Honestly, if one wants to remove misfires, a good idea is implementing a misfire replacement. Perhaps a haunted gun that curses the occult gunslinger instead of breaking the gun. The occultist gains a haunted deed akin to quick clear that quickly pacifies the spirit at the cost of some sacrifice.
The guns spirit could also take some ques from the spiritualist, with the emotions of the weapons spirit enabling for some more interesting deeds that fall more into the supernatural realms that the realms of mortal means.
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I honestly think that a spirit-infused gun would go better for a spiritualist archetype, so we can also work one of those up as well.
So, shall we work on possible archetypes and abilities for each:
Occultist = Occult Gunman (could always come up with a better name)
Posted above. Add a luck mechanic with the gun.
Spiritualist = Name?
-Spirit-infused gun, lower misfire/alternate misfire mechanic
Psycic = Name?
Kineticist = Name?
Most probably would use the blasts THROUGH their gun.
Medium = Name?
Mesmerist = Name?
I always felt that the Spellgun Magus multiclass archetype was a better blend of spellcasting and gunplay than the spellslinger. Simply changing the Spellgun Magus's spells to Psychic rather than Arcane would probably do just fine.
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Very cool. Reminds me of gun-using occult types, like Hellboy or Gunwitch or even the guys from Supernatural (when they've got the Colt), and also plays well on notions like cold iron vs. fey or whatever, or Mage the Ascensions timeline, in which the rise of technology (such as guns) heralded the decline of the supernatural (like faeries and werewolves).
While a gun-using Spiritualist seems thematically odd, at first, a variation that summoned up a non-mobile wellspring of spiritual energy, and once that was done, could set it to perform certain tasks round by round (less like summoning an eidolon/phantom, more like setting up a haunt!), and / or tap it to call up spiritual energy for one's own spellcasting (or stand in it and benefit from some sort of cover or defense), could be a thematic fit between the concepts. That would have less to do with firearms, however, and more to do with calling up an immobile 'spiritual gun emplacement.'
I'm not sure every Occult class needs a gun-toting Archetype, but there's no reason not to explore the various niches. A gun-toting Mesmerist could specialize in trick shots that inflict psychologically-based conditions on targets shot, or trick people into thinking they have been shot (when they haven't), causing them to take nonlethal damage, or to be debuffed in some way (diving away from illusory suppressing fire, and becoming flat-footed or provoking attacks of opportunity from those near them, as their attention is diverted). Being able to 'flank' someone with a gun while standing 30 ft. away would be a logical 'trick' for a gun-using Mesmerist, for instance.
We're not going to give the Psychic a gun. There's a Wizard archetype called Spellslinger, and it is absolutely terrible. Not only does it lose schools (and a lot of them), it can't use its gun properly. 1/2 BAB, full casting, and guns do not make for a good experience.
Almost all of the gun-related archetypes released with Ultimate Combat seemed half-baked and not worth it. Take the Holy Gun.. they don't get any additional grit until level 11! Seriously? A single-level dip into Mysterious Stranger can offset this a bit, but still.
For these archetypes I want to blend the gun use a little better without sacrificing what makes the base occult class unique.
I'm not sure every Occult class needs a gun-toting Archetype, but there's no reason not to explore the various niches.
Makes sense.
A gun-toting Mesmerist could specialize in trick shots that inflict psychologically-based conditions on targets shot, or trick people into thinking they have been shot (when they haven't), causing them to take nonlethal damage, or to be debuffed in some way (diving away from illusory suppressing fire, and becoming flat-footed or provoking attacks of opportunity from those near them, as their attention is diverted). Being able to 'flank' someone with a gun while standing 30 ft. away would be a logical 'trick' for a gun-using Mesmerist, for instance.
I like that. Overall that sounds very much like something a gun-toting Mesmerist would do.
So, I've made some small changes to the Occultist gunman archetype. Still need to think of some deeds that would fit.
Class Skills: An occult gunman adds Acrobatics (Dex) and Knowledge (engineering) (Int) as class skills. This alters the occultist's class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An occult gunman is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, firearms, and light armor. This modifies the occultist's weapon and armor proficiency.
Occult Gun (Su): At 1st level, an occult gunman forms a supernatural bond with a specific firearm. This selection is permanent and can never be changed. The bonded firearm is battered, and only he knows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat his gun as if it had the broken condition. This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 4d10 gp when sold). The occult gunman also gains Gunsmithing as a bonus feat.
The bonded firearm is immune to the broken condition for as long as the occult gunman lives. If an occult gunman dies and is restored to life, the bonded firearm is also restored if it was destroyed. Any magic powers associated with an occult gunman's bonded firearm function only for the occult gunman; in the hands of anyone else it is only a masterwork firearm. The bonded firearm starts as an implement for any single school of magic at 1st level, and gains access to additional schools of magic at 2nd, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, granting the occult gunman access to base focus powers and resonant powers accordingly. The occult gunman's bonded firearm serves as his implement component to cast occultist spells of all the schools that he knows.
However, he must split his mental focus among the schools he knows for the purpose of determining resonant powers and using focus powers, even though he possesses only one physical item as an implement.
This ability alters implements, mental focus, spellcasting, and implement mastery.
Spell Casting: An occult gunman adds the following spells to his list at the indicated levels: 1st level–abundant ammunition, damp powder, fabricate bullets; 2nd level–bullet shield, destabilize powder, recoil fire, stabilize powder; 3rd level–flash fire; 4th level–named bullet; 6th level–named bullet (greater).
Occult Luck (Ex): At 2nd level, the occult gunman treats his bonded firearm as if it had the lucky weapon property so long as he has mental focus on the gun.
This ability replaces magic item skill.
Bonus Feats: At 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th levels, an occult gunman gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat or grit feats. The occult gunman must meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats.
This ability replaces shift focus, magic circles, binding circles, and fast circles.
Occult Grit (Ex): At 7th level an occult gunman gains a number of grit points equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) and gains the use of a single gunslinger deed. He can select any deed that a gunslinger of his occultist level –4 could use. At 11th level and every four levels beyond 11th, the occult gunman gains another point of grit and another gunslinger deed that a gunslinger of his level -4 could use. If he already has levels in gunslinger, he gains a bonus to the maximum amount of grit he can have each day, equal to his Intelligence bonus (if any) but gains no extra grit as the start of each day.
This ability replaces outside contact.
My Self, why should it get Dex to Damage? The occultist is a fairly powerful spellcaster. Dex to Damage is too much. I honestly feel like it's too much to give so many bonus feats when all they lose is situational abilities.
So, I've made some small changes to the Occultist gunman archetype. Still need to think of some deeds that would fit.
** spoiler omitted **...
In this draft, the gun is still immune to misfires...
In this draft, the gun is still immune to misfires...So, I've made some small changes to the Occultist gunman archetype. Still need to think of some deeds that would fit.
** spoiler omitted **...
Ah, missed that. I'll fix it. Other than that, what's your take?
Would having the occult gunman's firearm be treated as having the greater lucky special ability at a higher level so long as he maintains a mental focus on it be too overpowered?
What about the reliable special ability?
late to the party. but.
I would say look at tome eater, and combine with spellslinger wizard. Altering abit so it applies to the focus powers too.
Looking at the Tome Eater, I do think borrowing the first paragraph of Bonded Tome would fit better.
Here's the next draft of Occult Gun:
At 1st level, an occult gunman forms a supernatural bond with a specific firearm. This selection is permanent and can never be changed. The bonded firearm is battered, and only he knows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat his gun as if it had the broken condition. This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 4d10 gp when sold). The occult gunman also gains Gunsmithing as a bonus feat.
The occult gunman can replace his bonded firearm at any time, though the occult gunman must perform a 24-hour binding ritual to attune himself to the new firearm. Any magic powers associated with an occult gunman's bonded firearm function only for the occult gunman; in the hands of anyone else it is only a masterwork firearm. The bonded firearm starts as an implement for any single school of magic at 1st level, and gains access to additional schools of magic at 2nd, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, granting the occult gunman access to base focus powers and resonant powers accordingly. The occult gunman's bonded firearm serves as his implement component to cast occultist spells of all the schools that he knows.
However, he must split his mental focus among the schools he knows for the purpose of determining resonant powers and using focus powers, even though he possesses only one physical item as an implement.
This ability alters implements, mental focus, spellcasting, and implement mastery.
Shall we also rename that to Bonded Firearm?
I wouldn't give the gun lucky or reliable or anything like that. You're just giving the occultist an overpowered gun. I'd focus on making unique abilities.
Any suggestions? That's why I posted it here.
The main reason I had the Lucky ability was to give the Occult Gunman SOME grit to last them until they reach 7th level. As the class is Intelligence-based, it didn't make sense giving them Amateur Gunslinger since it uses Wisdom for grit like the Gunslinger. Also, the description of Lucky felt like it fit the whole idea of the Occult Gunman's gun being special.
It's not an overpowered ability, as all it does is give them 1 grit point and allows them to use said grit point to reroll on a misfire. Without the Amateur Gunslinger feat or a class mechanic that gives them grit, they only have the 1 grit point each day. Granted, I COULD give the Occult Gunman the ability to 1/day reroll an attack from their bonded firearm that would result in a misfire, but that's literally what Lucky does.
That's what the Holy Gun archetype does.
I have a possible idea for a gun-toting kineticist.
Perhaps the kineticist could instead use their blasts but instead the burn goes into their gun, increasing the misfire value of the weapon by the number of burn built up. Using a blast through their weapon increases the range of the blast to be equal to the gun's range. Also, firing the blast through a firearm does not consume a bullet.
Oh, absolutely. If a firearm builds up too much burn, it could possibly explode, dealing damage to all within 20 feet or so.