Some Background: I have this idea for a campaign set in a country in civil war. The state's current government is a monarchy, that was previously ruled by a tribal council led by an Evil Overlord (I'm thinking of a Dracula figure, who got his vampiric powers from demons or something). So the rebels want to reestablish the representational gov't, but also the worship of the Old Gods (ie Demons/Devils). Problem is, I don;t want them to be TOO evil. I want them be small level bad guys, with a cult behind them that wants to reestablish demon worship, and probably summon some horrible evil (I haven't figured out yet)
Thing is, I want to make sure this makes sense. This is my first time running a pathfinder campaign, or any campaign at all. And there feels something wrong with having people who want to bring back the "old ways," (which probably involves human sacrifice) be basically good people. And the reason why I want them to be good is because A) They're small fries and B) only good guys could have popular support right?
Mechanically, clerics and such can worship a god that is one alignment step away from their own. So a neutral lawful cleric could worship a neutral evil god.
It's certainly possible for neutral characters to act like good people.
The generic situation you describe could be done with a bunch of Lawful Neutral folks. They're restoring traditional law and order in place of the dictator's whim.
That said, human sacrifice goes beyond what I think you can do and still be neutral. You could keep a lot of the flavor and be more mechanically compatible if the sacrifice were symbolic. Maybe do a ceremony where they use a virgin's blood (donated by somebody who's perfectly fine) instead of sacrificing a virgin, that kind of thing.
Thanks. I felt the need to second guess myself, especially since I don't know all the ways in which alignment intersects with other rules. I think I have a better idea on how I can make it work.
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Well, while I can't say you could be "good" good, since those gods are hard for swallow for actual good characters, but you can certainly be neutral and a positive influence in general.
When worshipping evil gods as a neutral character, you should generally build it around the 'other' elements that could be taken in a more positive light.
For devils, this would be law and highly developed social infrastructure and effective beaurocracy. For demons, it would be independence.
For places to look, maybe read up on the hellknights :here and the river freedoms :here.
Hellknights are, surprisingly, not entirely devil worshippers. While they appreciate hell's effective organization and use its iconography to give them a grim reputation, they can be of any lawful alignment, and even have paladins (there is even an archetype...one the is built with a very willful ignorance where it cannot detect evil, which may or may not include superior officers, and instead detects and fights chaos). For hellknights, the idea of criminals running around victimizing people brings them to a rage. And they also tend to avoid civil wars because it leaves countries without the resources to fight bandit groups and invading neighbors.
With the river freedoms, they are a loose but VERY well respected set of rules for the chaos loving River Kingdoms. They are built to insure personal freedom and responsibility. No slavery, overly strict kingdoms, or restriction on movement, obviously (and all this can be seen elements that can be appreciated by chaotic good characters). But when I talk about the theme of personal responsibility, I note the rule about oaths and buglary. Since there are few and poorly regulated laws there, oaths are important- they are ironclad because your own words and promises are your responsibility, and should not be given lightly (..and going with the 'have what you hold' principle... if you can't hold up your own words, you don't hav eth right to have those words...*insert throat slitting gesture*). Buglarly is also seen as horrible in comparison to robbery- stealing while someone is away stops the other person from taking responsibility to protect their property. As such, armed robbery is seen as preferrable since the other side can fight back, escape, seek help (guards, heroes). Being a sneak theif means you are unwilling to accept the attacker's responsbility to face the other side's defense.
Both of these practices are involved with groups often seen as evil... but they are also hav aspects that can be respected and practiced by neutral and good individuals as well. So if you pick a selection of specific demon lords and devils with portfolios that have more neutral interpretations... you can worship that aspect, and just say that your gods are more harsh than mortals.
My idea is basically that it's an Evil Representative(ish) government was defeated, and then got supplanted by a Good Monarchy. And maybe its been generations since, and so it's like the new people barely remember what it was like to live under that gov't. Like a sort of historical revisionism maybe?
I'm still in the process of figuring it out. And as it stands, it seems a little bit more political science than an adventure. But I guess I want villains with realistic motivations, so that it feels real to the players.
Thanks lemeres. Those seem like some good ideas to have in my bag as I go about this.
there are Paladins of Asmodius
Mechanically, clerics and such can worship a god that is one alignment step away from their own. So a neutral lawful cleric could worship a neutral evil god.
{. . .}
Not quite right. Being one step away in alignment means being one step away on just one axis, so being one step away on each of two axes means being two steas away. So Lawful Neutral characters can be Clerics of a Lawful Evil deity but not a Neutral Evil deity.
there are Paladins of Asmodius
Not really -- you can have Diabolical hucksters advertising themselves with some success as Paladins of Asmodeus, but that's not what they really are.
Having said all the above, I would not be opposed to the concept of some deities having an altered range of not only worshippers, but also Clerics. I'm sure Asmodeus would be willing to grant Cleric or even Paladin powers to Good characters to corrupt them without demanding an immediate change in alignment (don't want to be too obvious in the quest to corrupt them and ultimately corrupt the very concept of Good). Pharasma, being the closest thing that Golarion has to an over-deity, would probably be willing to do the same thing from a Neutral basis. Sarenrae is de facto almost doing this from a Good basis, what with having worshippers who do some really evil things (slavery, political assassinations, and starting wars; arguably, Sanenrae may be undergoing a slow process of corruption herself). In partial contrast, Iomedae probably would like to restrict her followers to hard-core Lawful Good, but has been forced by the Worldwound incursion to accept Low Templar and eventually even Really Filthy Templar (based upon what people have posted on these boards about late Wrath of the Righteous, she may be undergoing a process of corruption herself, and we might be due for a Fall of the Righteous AP in the future).
With respect to Paladins and Antipaladins, I would rather replace the base class (and its alternate) with a Holy Warrior prestige class that has archetypes matching each religion.
Normally, I think of heresy as a good thing.
I don't like this crop of heretics though.
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Asmodeus doesn't have any paladins. If memory serves, in the article on Asmodeus in Mother of Flies, part 5 of 6 of the Council of Thieves adventure path, it mentions paladins of Asmodeus. I believe it mentions this on page 63 and page 65.
Here is a thread where James Jacobs says that paladins worshiping Asmodeus was a development error
A good person can strife for a non-good goal. People in the world generally speaking don't know or adhere to any percieved alignment - they just live their lives and then they die. Personal opinion, tradition, political affiliation and religion are but few of the effects that help shape a person into who he becomes, but a person who hold certain evil values can still be good.
You could easily have a lawful good racist, for example. Sure if goes out and curbstomps gnomes for giggles, then the GM may decide his alignment changes, but the point is a perfectly good person can have opinions and want for things that do not expressly fall within some meta-category that matches an alignment he's not even aware he has.
To a good person the "old ways" and the "old gods" may simply mean he remembers a time where people were well-fed, disease was not running wild through the country-side, or invaders never made it far within the borders of the land, before mysteriously perishing at the hands of the Old Gods and the spirits that serve them. He may not realize he's worshipping demons, or he may realize and not know why that is supposed to be a bad thing; after all they're protecting the people, and sacrificing to can guarantee a pregnancy ends with a healthy, well-born child, that the herd of cows don't get sick, or that wolves stop prowling the countryside.
In short: An aligned person does not necessarily (or is even likely to) make decisions that only match his alignment. There are alot of values that mortal holds, even in the same circles of society, that fall on diffferent spectrums of the alignment-chart, and good people worshipping evil, or evil people worshipping good, would not be weird, - I'd go so far as to say it's probably common.
-Nearyn
EDIT: Not to mention that most people propbably pays lip service to many different gods, depending on what happens in their lives and what the gods represent. A Chaotic Good character, for example, would be unwise to sign a contract without sending a small prayer to Asmodeus, in the hopes that the contract will benefit him and not hurt him. An evil chelish admiral would be a fool to set sail without a prayer to the neutral goddess Gozreh AKA The Wind and the Waves. Since the gods embody/represent certain aspects of normal everyday mortal life, not showing proper respects, no matter your affiliation to mortal factions or belief-systems, would be asking for trouble, IMO.
In short: An aligned person does not necessarily (or is even likely to) make decisions that only match his alignment. There are alot of values that mortal holds, even in the same circles of society, that fall on diffferent spectrums of the alignment-chart, and good people worshipping evil, or evil people worshipping good, would not be weird, - I'd go so far as to say it's probably common.
Also, an aligned person might not know their alignment.
Seriously, can you remember your blood type from memory? Can you tell someone else's blood type? Can you tell the blood type of the ram horned hooved creature you are worshipping?
Alignment is a real, physical thing in this game world. But that doesn't mean people entire realize it, understand it, or have ways to easily apply it to their daily lives. Getting yourself checked out with a detect spell costs at least 10 gold (and most people make like....10+ silver a day), and you might need 4 different castings to get the whole picture.
And it changes...what about you? Knowing my bloodtype doesn't change much about your mind set either (...unless we are talking about japan, and this is someone VERY into astrology types stuff; I suppose you could panic if you have an ultra rare type, and know that no one can donate blood to you, and thus turn paranoid)
And as you said, since this is a culture that has served under demons for years and years... they could have an understanding of 'good' and 'bad' that is seperate from alignment, and it more deals with the quality of life within the community.