Is there any way in the core rules for a character of 5th level to be able to cast a 5th level spell? One of my players seems convinced there is, but every time I've researched something like this, it has always turned out to be a misunderstanding of some trait or Feat.
The only thing I see on his sheet even related is Gifted Adept, and I know that only adds a Caster Level to one spell already in the spell list for your appropriate class/level.
Sorry, yeah, I meant as in "adding a 5th level spell to the character's spell list," although that's a good point. He could have just written that down weird on his sheet. I'll double check the equipment.
No sir.
High caster stats and a broad misreading of the Samsaran Mystic Past Life
"Mystic Past Life (Su): You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past."
Okay, PC is not Samsaran, so no go there.
Play Palladium Fantasy?
Long story, they divorce spell level from character level. A Palladium PC can spontaneously learn spells of their class level or lower, yet can acquire higher level spells with a skill check and the correct means to do so. They just tend to be so PPE energy intensive that casting such a spell is difficult.
Unfortunately I'm in a situation where I don't have a full character sheet to review yet, but the player wants to use the character Sunday. I was hoping to be able to have concrete rulings on this issue before then so I didn't have to waste time before game, but since I don't know EXACTLY how he thinks he's getting this, I can't really search exact Feats, etc. for rulings and/or consensus.
Basically, I guess I have to wait until I have the PC in my hands, but thanks for confirming (so far) that my suspicions are correct, and what he's trying is not possible in the normal Core rules.
A Wizard, Arcanist, Alchemist, ect. can WRITE spells of a higher level then she can cast into her spell/formula book, she needs only meet the casting stat requirements, have the spell on her class list, make the appropriate spellcraft check, and have the proper amount of gold. That does NOT mean she can SET them. she can not SET spells that her class level is not able to use yet.
For example, a 1st level wizard who somehow gets a scroll of Time Stop and has at least a 19 INT could indeed write Time Stop into her spellbook as long as she makes a DC 24 spellcraft check and spends the 810gp to write it. However it does not matter if her INT is 19 or 119 she would not be able to SET it till 17th wizard level.
Also note you can NOT use spells from level up to write spells that are too high of a level but the spellbook sectiond of the classes specifically call that out and say: "At each new _____ level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new _____ level) for his spellbook."
But that gives me an Idea....
Ok I DID find a horribly roundabout, expensive, and time intensive way to cast spells of a higher level. of course it requires a high spellcraft and scribe scroll. nothing prevents you from creating a scroll of a higher level then you can cast. In fact the Spellcraft check would just be ((5+minimum CL of the spell)+5for not meeting one of the requirements of creating the scroll).
Using time stop as and example again a spellcraft check of 27, at a cost of 1912.5gp and 3(or 4 if you round up)days time, fail and it's ALL wasted, fail by 5 or more and you just made a cursed scroll. After creating the scroll of time stop a successful caster level check vs DC 19(scroll's caster level+1) would allow said first level wizard to cast time stop. of course she's likely to fail and then have to make a DC 5 wisdom check failure of THAT check results in a mishap.
Ok I DID find a horribly roundabout, expensive, and time intensive way to cast spells of a higher level. of course it requires a high spellcraft and scribe scroll. nothing prevents you from creating a scroll of a higher level then you can cast. In fact the Spellcraft check would just be ((5+minimum CL of the spell)+5for not meeting one of the requirements of creating the scroll).
Using time stop as and example again a spellcraft check of 27, at a cost of 1912.5gp and 3(or 4 if you round up)days time, fail and it's ALL wasted, fail by 5 or more and you just made a cursed scroll. After creating the scroll of time stop a successful caster level check vs DC 19(scroll's caster level+1) would allow said first level wizard to cast time stop. of course she's likely to fail and then have to make a DC 5 wisdom check failure of THAT check results in a mishap.
How do you get around the requirement that you have the spell prepared to scribe a scroll of it?
Because the requirements I've seen do not say it has to be PREPARED only that the spell is IN the spellbook. However I did find out upon reading farther into the rules that you can NOT increase the DC for scrolls(among other things) thus you could not create a scroll that is to high to cast. so sorry no 1st level wizards creating time stop. ;p
Unfortunately I'm in a situation where I don't have a full character sheet to review yet, but the player wants to use the character Sunday. I was hoping to be able to have concrete rulings on this issue before then so I didn't have to waste time before game, but since I don't know EXACTLY how he thinks he's getting this, I can't really search exact Feats, etc. for rulings and/or consensus.
Basically, I guess I have to wait until I have the PC in my hands, but thanks for confirming (so far) that my suspicions are correct, and what he's trying is not possible in the normal Core rules.
Can't you just message him asking him what rules elements he is using to do it?
Because the requirements I've seen do not say it has to be PREPARED only that the spell is IN the spellbook. However I did find out upon reading farther into the rules that you can NOT increase the DC for scrolls(among other things) thus you could not create a scroll that is to high to cast. so sorry no 1st level wizards creating time stop. ;p
From the CRB, magic item chapter, magic item creation, scrolls section:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
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The only other way that I can think of is to get a prestige class that adds to your "effective caster level for determining spells per level" without actually adding to your spell class level (totally). Thus a 5th level Caster 10th level Prestige could cast spells as a 14th or 15th level Caster class... But, really, that is sort of the same as being 14th or 15th in the class (sort of, depending on prestige class).
Maybe your player is misreading the "Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" and thinking that their score of 20+ in their casting stat allows them to cast higher level spells? (it only grants the spells if the PC's class "unlocks" the slots first)
In my experience, this is the most common source of confusion on this issue.
And I agree with most of the people here. I don't think it can be done.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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There is no current way to cast a spell higher than you level, because you can not acquire spell slots higher than your level allows.
You may be able to get spell like abilities of higher level spells, cast spells from scrolls, use ring of spell storing to cast spells of levels higher than you can if you can refill the ring.
As has been pointed out, bonus spells don't create slots until you have those slots. So a 1st level wizard with INT of 99 could never obtain a 2nd level slot.
Thanks everyone. Now that I think about it, he might, in fact, be misreading the Bonus Spells table. Unfortunately, the player is somewhat of a luddite, and only very rarely has access to a computer. There's no messaging, texting, IM-ing, etc, going on; only communication is via e-mail once or twice a week, and then at the game. Hopefully I will have a full character sheet today, and if the high ability score is the only thing I see, that's easy enough explained.
I once had a GM who houseruled that a high casting score gave you extra spell slots that could only be used with metamagic versions of your known spells. He also ruled that spells had no dice/level cap on them. Let's just say my magus got entirely out of hand.
From the CRB, magic item chapter, magic item creation, scrolls section:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
That is fine. Though to ME that creates two problems:
One is a slight mechanical exploitation with scribing spells that take at least 2 days to make in that you could set the spell and start work on day 1, cast said spell during day 1, wake up on day 2 and set the spell, and then finish work on the scroll. This is NOT that big of an exploit and is CLEARLY not RAI. (by the way consistent play with a power gamey Rules exploiter makes me look for inconsistencies like this to nip in the bud) this is such a corner case I would not errata it if I was Paizo(and indeed they have not.)
The second is thematic in that a wizard(Arcanist, ect.) could vary well have written that same spell into 100(though a more likely number is at least 3) spellbooks but in spite of that must set it if he wants scribe a scroll of a spell he's other wise written so many times. I would agree that writing a scroll is slightly different then writing it to a spellbook. However, thematically, I personally don't see why a Wizard couldn't simply spend his time scribing with his spellbook right next to him as reference.
However, thematically, I personally don't see why a Wizard couldn't simply spend his time scribing with his spellbook right next to him as reference.
Preparing a spell or scribing a scroll is partially completing the casting of the spell so that the only thing required to use it is the verbal, somatic, material, and/or focus component(s) of the spell. I would imagine that writing it into a spellbook is a different process, otherwise a Wizard could just hold open his spellbook in combat and cast anything he wants infinitely by just turning to that page in the book.
Nafairy, as far as I can see, the main reason to insist that spellcasters expend an appropriate spell slot when scribing is to prevent them even trying to scribe spells they can't cast yet.
Otherwise, there is nothing to prevent a wizard who has eg Time Stop in his spellbook making scrolls of it from level 1 (except money and time).
There are a lot of problems GMs can have once wizards get high level spells and allowing this to happen at lower levels makes it even harder to balance adventures.
I once had a GM who houseruled that a high casting score gave you extra spell slots that could only be used with metamagic versions of your known spells.
Is this explicitly not allowed under normal rules somewhere? The player, I think, has realized he shouldn't have 5th level spells, but is now pretty sure he can still use the bonus slots if he metamagics spells of a level he can already cast. I understand metamagics COUNT as the spell level they're being cast at, but he's going to argue that that's not the SAME as being that level.
In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
No, he absolutely does not get higher level spells. If that was the case, a level 1 wizard could cast lesser planar binding, wall of force, feeblemind, telekinesis, permanency, etc.
Yes, I understand that about regular spells. I think he does now, too. But he's now claiming "Magic Missile is a 1st level spell, I can cast 1st level spells, I get a bonus 5th level slot (which I can't use on 5th level spells for exactly the quote you just gave). BUT I CAN use that slot on a 1st level Magic Missile with 4 levels of metamagic."
I'm looking for some definitive: You don't get the SLOT if you're not able to cast the level, in any way shape or form. It seems like linguistically, they didn't actually DO that in RAW, regardless of RAI. I've never heard of a player trying to do this this way, but this one has no internet presence whatsoever; the only experience he has with gamers is the games he's played, and if that's how his previous GMs interpreted the rule, that's what he's going to think the rule is unless I can prove otherwise.
I used the FAQ to prove to him that he couldn't get the 5th level spell, but it doesn't, in and of itself, disallow metamagic of lower levels spells to use the bonus slot.
How about telling the player that what he is trying is clearly a weaselly load of bovine excrement?
While I like that in concept, he's not actually a particularly weaselly guy, and he's pushing because he feels like it's within the rules. If I can find a specific rule, he'll stop no questions asked. He's actually a pretty mild guy.
My problem is, I am too, and in the absence of a specific rule, I'm tempted to make a compromise, and I'm afraid that would result in an OP character. I'm glad I found specifics to get him to understand nothing beyond ACTUAL spell level, because that, I fear, could have been much worse.
You don't get bonus spell slots of a spell level unless your class level is high enough to cast spells of that level. That is why if you look at the ranger class, you will see his spells per day table includes 0's. That would allow him to use his bonus spell slots because he technically can cast spells of that level now.
And it was quoted before, but it does have your answer:
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
The entire paragraph is about bonus spell slots. It specifically says you must be of a high enough level to cast spells of that level to get the bonus slot.
Also, for the Metamagic question - boosting a first level spell into a higher slot see this FAQ posting:
At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
Metamagic applied to a 1st level spell to get it to 5th level means it counts as casting a 5th level spell. He can't treat a bonus 5th level slot as the ability to cast a 5th level spell.
Nafairy, as far as I can see, the main reason to insist that spellcasters expend an appropriate spell slot when scribing is to prevent them even trying to scribe spells they can't cast yet.
Otherwise, there is nothing to prevent a wizard who has eg Time Stop in his spellbook making scrolls of it from level 1 (except money and time).
There are a lot of problems GMs can have once wizards get high level spells and allowing this to happen at lower levels makes it even harder to balance adventures.
In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
O_O well... that's... I WAS going to site this line as saying that you couldn't make a scroll without meeting all requirements. however it specifically says you ONLY need the spell.
This would allow for things like a level 1 aasimar wizard who COULD scribe a scroll of Daylight. FAQ specifically states you can use SLA to meat the spell reqs. the spellcraft check would be DC 15 (5+5(minimum caster level of daylight)+5(is not a 5th level wizard)) and she would use her SLA for the day. note she would STILL need to make a caster level check(this risking a mishap) to cast the scroll she made like this.
-_- this happens to me more then I like. I can get a bit overzealous trying to cut off said exploiter before he can become a problem. but hey I learned new things so nothing was wasted to me.^_^
That being said my vary first post is still correct. and as others have said you simply do not have access to your bonus spells by attribute in ANY way until you are proper level.
A 1st Wizard with INT 99 and maximize spell can't ever cast a maximized magic missille.
Player: But what if I have 100 INT?
There is no way and there never will be a way.
Isn't? Yes.
Shouldn't? Yes.Never?
Thanks to everyone. I let him know that the general consensus here was that it was not possible, and that's how I was ruling it, pointing out some of the other things you've pointed out to me in this post.
Thanks to everyone. I let him know that the general consensus here was that it was not possible, and that's how I was ruling it, pointing out some of the other things you've pointed out to me in this post.
You've been very cool and reasonable through all of this. So I'd like to provide for you the grounds by which the consensus has been derived.
There are more than a decade worth of published monster/NPC statblocks in adventure after adventure after adventure, where the theoretical bonus spell slots DON'T exist. There are none where they do. Not even for metamagic. You don't have the slots.
I don't have a specific statblock to reference for you, admittedly, but hopefully it'll be enough to know that we've all see many, many examples published by Paizo, and Wizards of the Coast before them, that makes it clear that metamagic or no, there is no access to those theoretical slots.
G'luck.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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there is no access to those theoretical slots.
There is also a rule prohibiting it
CRB p16
In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells or use spell slots of a given spell level.
Effectively, if you can't cast 2nd level spells you don't get bonus 2nd levels spell slots.
