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So I really like the new kineticist class and decided to write up a guide for them. This is my first guide so I'd like any advice people have to offer on how to improve it.
The scarred witch doctor no longer is a con based class
The scarred witch doctor no longer is a con based class
Huh, didn't notice that change. Guide altered.
Oh man, looks like kin guides are all the rage now! This is the third one up aside from mine and the telekineticist guide, although there was one on GITP first, so I guess that would make this one the fourth. Either way, it's good to see people taking to this class so much!
I'll have to check those out.
I love that there are all these guides, and especially when the guides' ratings conflict in a way where I feel both (or multiple for more than two) guide authors are making really valid points in their rating schema, each from a different perspective!
I really like layout of this one. Listing the items by level. (Haven't looked at N. Jolly's guide since yesterday so I don't know how it's looking now.)
Honestly Jiraiya, I think you might be better off making an elemental specialty guide, although that's just me being selfish since I'd like to see people delving into the different elements more than I'm able to with a general guide.
He's already done so much good work dividing things into his "Big 3" builds, though. It would be a shame to split to an elemental specialty guide (and I say this even though I'm interested in element specialty guides too!)
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Honestly Jiraiya, I think you might be better off making an elemental specialty guide, although that's just me being selfish since I'd like to see people delving into the different elements more than I'm able to with a general guide.He's already done so much good work dividing things into his "Big 3" builds, though. It would be a shame to split to an elemental specialty guide (and I say this even though I'm interested in element specialty guides too!)
I can admit it's a selfish suggestion here, although I'll be keeping an eye on this one for ideas to add to my own too.
I like your summary of the Overwhelming Soul archetype. I agree if you normally have a casting stat (con) of 18 and you go this and only have a 14 con your effective max HP is the same for both and you get more from the normal. You could take 2 burn to have the same effective max HP and then at lv6 you could take another burn as it's the burn that powers the size bonus to con which cancels the burn used to get it. so both ways your effective Max HP is the same but one gets more damage and can do more. Even just using it to powering up your Defense ability makes you come out on top.
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Yay, I love the Kineticist, but I feel I'm constantly thinking around in circles because it's so difficult to pick between elements. Thanks for writing things down, this makes it easier to make up one's mind!
Even though Jedi use melee attacks more than other kineticists it’s recommended they take Weapon Finesse so that they can still fling blasts in situations where melee is impractical.
Um, what?
Hey so The FAQ came out and the invisibility is self only.
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Air is the best element to take when you get Expanded Element at 7th level. None of the air composite blasts are bad and most of the best air wild talents become available around that level anyway.
You count as being 4 levels behind for the purpose of picking secondary-element wild talents, though. If you're a secondary Aero, you get to pick Wings at 10th and Torrent* at 11th at the earliest.
(* Mark said that Electric was supposed to work with Torrent.)
burning infusion (fire, blue flame, magma, plasma)- At early levels this infusion either does a lot of damage or forces your enemy to skip their turn. At later levels the lack of save on this infusion makes it a useful setup for the rest of your abilities.
There's a Reflex save.
gusting infusion (air, blizzard, sandstorm, thunderstorm)- Makes your air blast a 60 foot line attack with a bunch of added goodies. You can take a bunch of burn to make a five foot line of damage across the battlefield too. This is a powerful battlefield control ability.
I've always thought Gust of Wind sounded interesting on paper but never ever came in useful in real life. I played with a Cleric of an air goddess once who got it as a domain spell, and I think she used it to good effect exactly once. Could you explain how you think this could be useful, let alone worthy of a Blue rating? As far as I'm concerned, Air is getting the short end of the stick on debuff riders, and Gusting Infusion is the worst offender.
Fortunately with the feat you don't have the level penalty for the secondary element.
Air is the best element to take when you get Expanded Element at 7th level. None of the air composite blasts are bad and most of the best air wild talents become available around that level anyway.You count as being 4 levels behind for the purpose of picking secondary-element wild talents, though. If you're a secondary Aero, you get to pick Wings at 10th and Torrent* at 11th at the earliest.
(* Mark said that Electric was supposed to work with Torrent.)
burning infusion (fire, blue flame, magma, plasma)- At early levels this infusion either does a lot of damage or forces your enemy to skip their turn. At later levels the lack of save on this infusion makes it a useful setup for the rest of your abilities.There's a Reflex save.
I've always thought Gust of Wind sounded interesting on paper but never ever came in useful in real life. I played with a Cleric of an air goddess once who got it as a domain spell, and I think she used it to good effect exactly once. Could you explain how you think this could be useful, let alone worthy of a Blue rating? As far as I'm concerned, Air is getting the short end of the stick on debuff riders, and Gusting Infusion is the worst offender.gusting infusion (air, blizzard, sandstorm, thunderstorm)- Makes your air blast a 60 foot line attack with a bunch of added goodies. You can take a bunch of burn to make a five foot line of damage across the battlefield too. This is a powerful battlefield control ability.
I have been reading every guide thoroughly, and I think he thinks that gusting infusion deals damage in a line like the form infusion torrent? I have noticed small things like that in most of the guides, but I don't want to be running around nitpicking these awesome (and I know from personal experiencing very very time consuming) works of fan effort, so I haven't been mentioning them very much.
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What do you mean, Chess Pwn? Extra Wild Talent only gives you wild talents 2 levels below the highest you can pick, so it's the same problem.
Kinetic Blade [...] Avoid this infusion on Paper Masters who are required to be holding an object to turn into a kinetic blade, meaning they can’t have their hands free to do Gather Power.
I believe Mark has officially said that holding an object for the purpose of Telekinetic Blade does not interfere with Gather Power.
What do you mean, Chess Pwn? Extra Wild Talent only gives you wild talents 2 levels below the highest you can pick, so it's the same problem.
Kinetic Blade [...] Avoid this infusion on Paper Masters who are required to be holding an object to turn into a kinetic blade, meaning they can’t have their hands free to do Gather Power.I believe Mark has officially said that holding an object for the purpose of Telekinetic Blade does not interfere with Gather Power.
For the blade itself, correct. It's directly stated in the kinetic blade form infusion :)
What do you mean, Chess Pwn? Extra Wild Talent only gives you wild talents 2 levels below the highest you can pick, so it's the same problem.
It's a similar problem, instead of having a -4 you only have a -2, letting you get higher things sooner.
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Flurry of Blasts (universal)- Don’t take this, it’s bad. All targets need to be within 30 feet of each other. Every element gets an area of effect form infusion that works at least this well without sacrificing all of your damage.
I used to think so as well, but the main raison d'être here is to push your debuffs through. When you get the ability, you can trip or entangle several enemies at once even when they're interspersed with your allies. You can also hit a single enemy several times to make the Save or combat maneuver harder to resist. You could root an enemy in place by hitting them twice with Entangling Infusion. That sort of thing...
Damage is sacrificed, sure, but not as much as you might think. Let's say you get the ability a 7th and are hasted; that gives you 3 attacks à 1d6+1+5 or so (assuming Con 5 with overflow etc). That's 28.5 damage, whereas your regular 4d6+4+5 would have done 23 damage to a single target (34 empowered). If you allow for Overflow damage on each Flurry hit, the balance tilts even more towards Flurry. Of course it's worse that an actual AoO, but those are hard to get with physical, and hard to aim in a messy brawl.
Mark, since you're here, could you clarify what effects do and do not apply to Flurry of Blasts? It's very ambiguously worded. I presume Metakinesis doesn't work. What about Overflow? Deadly Aim?
Mobile Blast (universal)- Moving around with this thing is awkward, but it’s easier than dealing with flaming sphere. Once you hit 8th level you can make these things for free and have them follow you everywhere, so long as you don’t mind alerting the entire dungeon of wherever you’re going. You won’t be able to use these every battle with positioning and all but otherwise they’re damage you can deliver with a move action.
I'd like to point out, though, that you usually have better things to do with your move action, such as Gathering Power for an Empower. Also, the Mobile Blast is "extremely loud", so yes, it does alert the whole dungeon...
Greater Flame Jet (fire)- Not quite as good as an actual fly speed as you can’t run or 5 foot step and you can’t move less than 60 feet but your speed isn’t reduced by carrying a heavy load or wearing medium or heavier armor. Definitely worth grabbing.
I've never read that as forbidding moving less than 60 feet. Are you sure it's meant that way...? Mark?
Overwhelming Soul- I hate this archetype. Why in the world would you give up Con casting for boring old Charisma casting? And every ability you give up is way stronger than what you get in return. It seems like the whole point is to make your life less risky by not having to burn away your hit points but you’ll have way more hit points with Con as your casting stat than you will with Charisma anyway.
It's true that you lose a lot of the nice bonuses of having Burn. On the other hand, you gain the ability to be a great party face. That's a useful role to have, in particular if you're the only one in the party that qualifies. As a small consolation prize, you get to boost Dex and Cha, which is cheaper than two physical stats, and the Halfling and Musetouched offer +2 Dex +2 Cha. Personally, I rather like the idea of a Halfing opera singer/Aerokineticist.
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What do you mean, Chess Pwn? Extra Wild Talent only gives you wild talents 2 levels below the highest you can pick, so it's the same problem.It's a similar problem, instead of having a -4 you only have a -2, letting you get higher things sooner.
No. It's 2 spell levels lower, i.e. 4 Kineticist levels just as with a secondary element.
IMHO, Extra Wild Talent works best if you pick Fire as your secondary, since there are some nice 1st-level picks there. An Earth/Fire build can use their regular wild talents to advance the higher-level Earth progression (Impale, Eruption etc) while at the same time taking several Extra Wild Talents to get Fan of Flames, Burning Infusion, Flame Jet etc.
Hey so The FAQ came out and the invisibility is self only.
Thank you, good to know.
Even though Jedi use melee attacks more than other kineticists it’s recommended they take Weapon Finesse so that they can still fling blasts in situations where melee is impractical.Um, what?
I've clarified this in the guide now. Jedi work best as switch hitters. If you want to play a strictly melee kineticists it's best to go Elemental Ascetic and drop blasts entirely.
You count as being 4 levels behind for the purpose of picking secondary-element wild talents, though. If you're a secondary Aero, you get to pick Wings at 10th and Torrent* at 11th at the earliest.
(* Mark said that Electric was supposed to work with Torrent.)
You get fire and telekinetic flight at 10th level as well but they're generally inferior to air flight. Air is the best secondary element to pick up because they get so many nice things so early.
There's a Reflex save.
Whoops, missed that. Thanks.
I have been reading every guide thoroughly, and I think he thinks that gusting infusion deals damage in a line like the form infusion torrent? I have noticed small things like that in most of the guides, but I don't want to be running around nitpicking these awesome (and I know from personal experiencing very very time consuming) works of fan effort, so I haven't been mentioning them very much.
Ah, so it doesn't then. Thank you for your input and I can tell you that I very much appreciate any nitpicking you want to do.
I believe Mark has officially said that holding an object for the purpose of Telekinetic Blade does not interfere with Gather Power.
So I don't really know how the universe would know you were gathering power for kinetic blade rather than something else? And you still wouldn't be able to Gather Power for any other blast, meaning you'd have to waste time dropping the item and drawing a new one when you want to make another kinetic blade. You can grab Quickdraw to make it happen but why bother?
I used to think so as well, but the main raison d'être here is to push your debuffs through. When you get the ability, you can trip or entangle several...
My problem with this ability is that you can do the same things it does with any AoE ability without sacrificing as much damage. You only get equal damage to a regular blast if you're hasted and if you hit different targets. If you hit the same target you get the save DC boost but lose all your static damage. You could use a line attack to hit at least 2 people for your full blast damage and apply a save DC substance infusion.
I'd like to point out, though, that you usually have better things to do with your move action, such as Gathering Power for an Empower. Also, the Mobile Blast is "extremely loud", so yes, it...
Yeah, you're probably right. I like the idea of a mobile damage dealing object that doesn't require your standard action but it's such an awkward ability to use. I think I'll change this rating.
Thank you all for your comments. I plan on adding full builds and clarifications of the Iconic, Jedi, and Paper Master over the course of the week as well as expanding the elements section.
*Throws hands up in insanity, laughing crazily*
Curse my horrible work schedule, someone else got a guide out, and they even did the Bruiser-Blaster-Controller/Utility split I was working on... but whatever, good job, I guess I'll still find time to keep working on mine before game-time tonight...
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I've clarified this in the guide now. Jedi work best as switch hitters. If you want to play a strictly melee kineticists it's best to go Elemental Ascetic and drop blasts entirely.
I see what you mean now. It sounded like you were recommending Weapon Finesse for ranged attacks. Yeah, given that Finesse works and you don't get a Str bonus on damage, it never occurred to me that people might want to play a Str-based Jedi.
You count as being 4 levels behind for the purpose of picking secondary-element wild talents, though. If you're a secondary Aero, you get to pick Wings at 10th and Torrent* at 11th at the earliest.You get fire and telekinetic flight at 10th level as well but they're generally inferior to air flight. Air is the best secondary element to pick up because they get so many nice things so early.
My point here is that your wording "7th level [...] most of the best air wild talents become available around that level anyway" seems to suggest that you can pick up Wings and Celerity as soon as you pass 7th level, which is not true. Air talents are pretty lame until spell level 3rd, which you can pick at 10th at the earliest if you're a secondary Aero. Primary Aero is the only way to pick up Wings and Celerity "around that level". I'm not sure what other talents you could be referring to; spell levels 1–2 are a wasteland for Aero.
My problem with this ability is that you can do the same things it does with any AoE ability without sacrificing as much damage. You only get equal damage to a regular blast if you're hasted and if you hit different targets. If you hit the same target you get the save DC boost but lose all your static damage. You could use a line attack to hit at least 2 people for your full blast damage and apply a save DC substance infusion.
I do agree overall. The ability does extremely little to justify its terrible damage. If at least several blasts were allowed to do their full damage against the same target (including Overflow, Empower, and the like), it would probably be worthwhile.
That's fair. I'll go clarify when I expand the elemental section.
For the blade itself, correct. It's directly stated in the kinetic blade form infusion :)What do you mean, Chess Pwn? Extra Wild Talent only gives you wild talents 2 levels below the highest you can pick, so it's the same problem.
Kinetic Blade [...] Avoid this infusion on Paper Masters who are required to be holding an object to turn into a kinetic blade, meaning they can’t have their hands free to do Gather Power.I believe Mark has officially said that holding an object for the purpose of Telekinetic Blade does not interfere with Gather Power.
Thanks for the clarification, Marky!
A telekinetic blast does full blast damage to the object you use it with and telekinetic blast isn't an energy attack. You'd shatter your gauntlets in just a few attacks unless they were adamantine.
For the paper master, I suggest buying sharpstone sling bullets. They can do bludegoning, slashing or piercing damage and they are cheap.
Paper Masters can already do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage using pebbles you pick up from the road. The Aether is what's doing damage, it just needs a nucleus to wrap around.
The scarred witch doctor no longer is a con based class
Um...color me confused. Where did you see that?
The scarred witch doctor no longer is a con based classUm...color me confused. Where did you see that?It was in the Advanced Race Guide errata that came out right at the same time as Occult Adventures. It now is still Intelligence based, but lets you treat your Intelligence as 2 higher than it actually is.
Also, as far as the guide goes, there's some interesting stuff in there. The rating and description of the Snake infusion is a bit wrong though. You get to trace your path to your target however you want, but you're still targeting a specific thing and can't just say you're attacking anything in the path.
Welp...more errata I'm gonna ignore at my table...Back to the actual point of the thread:
Definitely diggin' the guide so far. Your assessment of the Overwhelming Soul archetype is in line with what I thought...no real point to take it at all unless for role-play reasons.
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Paper Masters can already do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage using pebbles you pick up from the road. The Aether is what's doing damage, it just needs a nucleus to wrap around.
I would expect the shape of your blast would follow that of the object you're using, though, so I can't quite see how you'd slash with a pebble.
Of course, you should be able to both slash and slam with a playing card, so just keep some of those in an open pocket. I suppose that's where the word Paper Master comes from?
Paper Masters can already do bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage using pebbles you pick up from the road. The Aether is what's doing damage, it just needs a nucleus to wrap around.I would expect the shape of your blast would follow that of the object you're using, though, so I can't quite see how you'd slash with a pebble.
Of course, you should be able to both slash and slam with a playing card, so just keep some of those in an open pocket. I suppose that's where the word Paper Master comes from?
No, you choose the damage type, regardless of what object you are using.
I question why flesh to stone is rated green.
They have DR about on par with invulnerable barbarian (sure, adamantine gets through it...but that means your GM has to throw adamantine at you if they want to consistently get past it. Cha-ching, if you have access to merchants).
Not only that, but they can pump their burn into it to get it really frightening. Even low level DR can reduce or even negate attacks against you. I feel it is more than worth the burn/nonkethal damage you take on. And it is a perfect way to waste burn for overflow. It is certainly what I spend 3 burn on at level 6 to get DR 6.