Hyperlinks and Happiness

[Dieben]

After seeing several entries with these last year, what are your thoughts on the inclusion of hyperlinks in an entry?

E.g.: This magical slinky of stretchiness gives its bearer the compression monster ability.

Did you find these useful or helpful last year? Were they more of a nuisance? Did mobile users have any difficulties with them?

[Anthony Adam]

It would make it easier to check your stuff is from the prd this year, just saying ;)

[Dieben]

Say no more, ;)

[Jacob W. Michaels]

From an earlier thread...

I wrote:

Hyperlinks are a personal choice. I've seen some people say they don't like seeing them, that it feels like showing off or gilding the lily. They don't have hyperlinks in books, so why provide them here, though I think you could argue many online references WOULD have hyperlinks. Personally, I think it's convenient -- especially if it's a spell I might not know (but since the rules say only rules on the PRD can be referenced, I'd make sure I linked to that) or definitely rules that aren't as well known -- but I don't really add or subtract any "points" for items with hyperlinks. My guess is it's pretty low down on the list of criteria people have for voting.

[frank gori]

I'd rather lose a few "purist" votes than have something misunderstood. Use too many and it's annoying but if you want to put an easy reference on a somewhat obscure rule I'd say it helps me out as a voter and I choose to do so as a designer as do many others.

[Browman]

It really doesn't impact my vote. The biggest danger is in not formatting it correctly, that would hurt your chances of getting my vote. On the other hand if you are referencing something obscure it may help you since I don't have to track it down.

[pH unbalanced]

How do the hyperlink tags interact with wordcount (if at all)? If I'm close to the 300 word limit, am I endangering myself by using hyperlinks?

[Dieben]

If written correctly, hyperlink tags should not affect your word count at all.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

And you can check your word count on the submission tool (one of the great fears when you're in the contest is you'll accidentally hit submit instead of preview when you're checking your word count).

[The black raven]

pH unbalanced wrote:

How do the hyperlink tags interact with wordcount (if at all)? If I'm close to the 300 word limit, am I endangering myself by using hyperlinks?

From the awesome workshopping thread :

Russ Brown wrote:

Also when you submit your entry be sure to hit preview first and it will provide a word count. this is the official one that will be used to DQ you if you go over the allowed word count.

[Wren Brown]

Of course, using the preview feature, will also let you check that your formating and hyperlinks are correct.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

If you don't include spaces between the brackets and info therein, you should be fine.

I used hyperlinks in my item last year and it didn't affect word count.

If I was presented with 2 items exactly the same except for hyperlinks, I would vote for hyperlinks. Just shows you care that little extra bit.

[Isaac Volynskiy]

I'm just the opposite, Thomas. I think the item should be able to stand without links, since that's how it'll be in dead tree format. A minor annoyance for me that only rarely impacts voting when the items are very close.

[Curaigh]

'Tis less of an issue this year, but those hyperlinks that went to D20PFSRD or other non-Paizo sites, were almost an auto-downvote for me. Supporting your host is just good form.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Curaigh wrote:

'Tis less of an issue this year, but those hyperlinks that went to D20PFSRD or other non-Paizo sites, were almost an auto-downvote for me. Supporting your host is just good form.

Okay, those were my exceptions for the hyperlink rule. There weren't too many I saw, although I only clicked hyperlinks I didn't know the rules for.

[Scott Fernandez]

I agree that hyperlinks don't bother me as much as messing up the format. I mean you are given the template and have hundreds of items to compare how an item should look. Also as you are restricted to the PRD for reference you should restrict hyperlinks to the PRD as well.

-Vrock Superstar

[Adam Daigle]

In the past when I was voting or judging, I didn't automatically downvote an entry that used hyperlinks, but it did slightly color my opinion of the entrant. When it comes down to getting your work published, you don't have the luxury of linking to rules descriptions (we make physical print books, after all), so making sure that your work is as clear and understandable as possible in your design and the language you use is super important.

[Mwangi Inquisitor]

Adam Daigle wrote:

In the past when I was voting or judging, I didn't automatically downvote an entry that used hyperlinks, but it did slightly color my opinion of the entrant. When it comes down to getting your work published, you don't have the luxury of linking to rules descriptions (we make physical print books, after all), so making sure that your work is as clear and understandable as possible in your design and the language you use is super important.

What color were they colored?

Positive Cerulean?
Negative Indigo?
Hyperlink Blue?
This-better-be-damn-good-if-I-am-going-to-vote-for-it Navy?

[frank gori]

Adam Daigle wrote:

In the past when I was voting or judging, I didn't automatically downvote an entry that used hyperlinks, but it did slightly color my opinion of the entrant. When it comes down to getting your work published, you don't have the luxury of linking to rules descriptions (we make physical print books, after all), so making sure that your work is as clear and understandable as possible in your design and the language you use is super important.

Why stay rooted in the past, particularly in a hobby where ebooks/pdfs are more and more the rule. I've pondered allowing hyperlinks in my pdfs as a 3PP and several companies do already...

[frank gori]

Curaigh wrote:

'Tis less of an issue this year, but those hyperlinks that went to D20PFSRD or other non-Paizo sites, were almost an auto-downvote for me. Supporting your host is just good form.

I agree to a certain extent but will point out that d20pfsrd is the selling point that got me to switch to Pathfinder and while d20pfsrd is not perfect it has done the hobby a lot of good. I'd say for the contest linking to the prd is good form but some forum lurkers seem to take issue with d20pfsrd which is just silly IMHO.

(full disclosure: I helped launch their publishing wing before splintering my own brand with my writing partner)

[Jarrett Sigler]

GM-Solspiral.

If I were in your boots, and I'm not so take this with a grain of salt, if I were to test out "Hyperlinks in PDF's" I would put them in published adventures first.

Adventures are smaller, more compact, and If a GM can just click on a word and jump STRAIGHT to a Rule, or a Monster entry.

That would save Me personally ALOT of time, and energy.

[Adam Daigle]

GM_Solspiral wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

In the past when I was voting or judging, I didn't automatically downvote an entry that used hyperlinks, but it did slightly color my opinion of the entrant. When it comes down to getting your work published, you don't have the luxury of linking to rules descriptions (we make physical print books, after all), so making sure that your work is as clear and understandable as possible in your design and the language you use is super important.

Why stay rooted in the past, particularly in a hobby where ebooks/pdfs are more and more the rule. I've pondered allowing hyperlinks in my pdfs as a 3PP and several companies do already...

Oh, I'm not opposed to their usage and I have enjoyed the usability of them in some of the PDFs I've read that included them, but we at Paizo don't do that, and when I'm looking for potential writers, I like seeing people do things in Paizo styles. The further people stray from our styles, the harder I have to work in development.

[pH unbalanced]

Well, if I were to put hyperlinks in my entry, the intent would be to pander to the voters, not to supersede proper explanations in the item itself. :)

I'd hope that hyperlink haters would just ignore their presence rather than actively grading down. That's pretty much what I have done as a voter -- pretend they aren't there.

[Garrick Williams]

You shouldn't need links to explain how your item works. This is show off that you're a game designer.

[Curaigh]

GM_Solspiral wrote:

Curaigh wrote:

'Tis less of an issue this year, but those hyperlinks that went to D20PFSRD or other non-Paizo sites, were almost an auto-downvote for me. Supporting your host is just good form.

I agree to a certain extent but will point out that d20pfsrd is the selling point that got me to switch to Pathfinder and while d20pfsrd is not perfect it has done the hobby a lot of good. I'd say for the contest linking to the prd is good form but some forum lurkers seem to take issue with d20pfsrd which is just silly IMHO.

(full disclosure: I helped launch their publishing wing before splintering my own brand with my writing partner)

To clarify: I am not trying to put these sites down. I direct my concern to the authors who linked them in their RPGSS entry. My concern is: show your host some respect.

It might be similar to taking my shoes off at my sister's house, not talking religion in my parent's house, or expecting my dogs to join you when you sit on their couch. Ya know, when in Cassomir & all that :)

[Jeff Lee]

Remember, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

[Rabbitball]

Adam Daigle wrote:

Oh, I'm not opposed to their usage and I have enjoyed the usability of them in some of the PDFs I've read that included them, but we at Paizo don't do that, and when I'm looking for potential writers, I like seeing people do things in Paizo styles. The further people stray from our styles, the harder I have to work in development.

So are you suggesting a rules citation (Publication X, Page y) instead?

[Jeff Lee]

Rabbitball wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

Oh, I'm not opposed to their usage and I have enjoyed the usability of them in some of the PDFs I've read that included them, but we at Paizo don't do that, and when I'm looking for potential writers, I like seeing people do things in Paizo styles. The further people stray from our styles, the harder I have to work in development.

So are you suggesting a rules citation (Publication X, Page y) instead?

That would eat away your word count. Why not just list the spells and abilities leave well enough alone? If a person wants to check them, there's a search function on the PRD. Adding hyperlinks isn't likely to do much except take that much more time. They aren't required, and I don't know anyone that would vote up an item over another just because it had hyperlinks.

[Matt Morris]

Jeff Lee wrote:

Rabbitball wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

Oh, I'm not opposed to their usage and I have enjoyed the usability of them in some of the PDFs I've read that included them, but we at Paizo don't do that, and when I'm looking for potential writers, I like seeing people do things in Paizo styles. The further people stray from our styles, the harder I have to work in development.

So are you suggesting a rules citation (Publication X, Page y) instead?

That would eat away your word count. Why not just list the spells and abilities leave well enough alone? If a person wants to check them, there's a search function on the PRD. Adding hyperlinks isn't likely to do much except take that much more time. They aren't required, and I don't know anyone that would vote up an item over another just because it had hyperlinks.

People also reacted generally unfavorably when I listed sources for the spells on my staff last year. I'd either hyperlink or trust people to look up things they aren't familiar with.

[Rabbitball]

Jeff Lee wrote:

Rabbitball wrote:

Adam Daigle wrote:

Oh, I'm not opposed to their usage and I have enjoyed the usability of them in some of the PDFs I've read that included them, but we at Paizo don't do that, and when I'm looking for potential writers, I like seeing people do things in Paizo styles. The further people stray from our styles, the harder I have to work in development.

So are you suggesting a rules citation (Publication X, Page y) instead?

That would eat away your word count. Why not just list the spells and abilities leave well enough alone? If a person wants to check them, there's a search function on the PRD. Adding hyperlinks isn't likely to do much except take that much more time. They aren't required, and I don't know anyone that would vote up an item over another just because it had hyperlinks.

I am not talking about spells. It's more of whether to use a rules citation such as "This uses the Eating Chocolate Candy rules (Book of Ultimate Sweetness, page 35)" as opposed to hyperlinking the online version. Sure the rules citation eats word count, but if you have the space, which is preferable from a judge standpoint?

[Garrett Guillotte]

Rabbitball wrote:

I am not talking about spells. It's more of whether to use a rules citation such as "This uses the Eating Chocolate Candy rules (Book of Ultimate Sweetness, page 35)" as opposed to hyperlinking the online version.

Paizo style would suggest a simple parenthetical.

"When activating this item, you experience the benefits of eating a chocolate candy (Book of Ultimate Sweetness 35)."

Rabbitball wrote:

Sure the rules citation eats word count, but if you have the space, which is preferable from a judge standpoint?

There's no judging this year to get into the Top 32, so who knows. Consensus suggests at best that linking helps a little with a few voters and the rest don't care.

Ideally, your item's design is tight and clear enough that you don't need to explain it to catch a voter's interest.