We just had a run and for AD5-1 / heaven the lancer just blew through almost everything and we ended up waiting around for the lady to show up with half the timer deck remaining. Hardly any challenge at all. Allies/blessings usually needed to discard for explore became free explores.
And then the champion encountered the lady with 8 counters on heaven.. (I think that could be another situation requiring a faq). We even decided to not use the champion power and still it was pretty much auto-win.
Initially it looked quite challenging as the Angels were unavoidable .. And weapons mostly useless.. Interesting .. But the recursion pretty much removed any timing pressure.
We just had a run and for AD5-1 / heaven the lancer just blew through almost everything and we ended up waiting around for the lady to show up with half the timer deck remaining. Hardly any challenge at all. Allies/blessings usually needed to discard for explore became free explores.
And then the champion encountered the lady with 8 counters on heaven.. (I think that could be another situation requiring a faq). We even decided to not use the champion power and still it was pretty much auto-win.
Initially it looked quite challenging as the Angels were unavoidable .. And weapons mostly useless.. Interesting .. But the recursion pretty much removed any timing pressure.
If you're looking for a more epic adventure, having played 4-1 through 5-4 with "at the start of your turn" works really well. I know its not for everyone, but it sounds like it would add value to your gaming nights.
My group really enjoys challenge though. We also removed all elite banes before starting AD5 ;)
At the end of the day, its your time and your fun at stake. Have fun.
Thanks buddy. Ive mentioned that some veterans like yourself have made that start of turn change to prevent the recursion.. Unfortunately it's not my char. If it was I'd have made the adjustment ages ago to preserve the team's challenge.
Long story short he wasn't willing to make any changes so we'll just have to wait for the official ruling (which I really really hope happens soon before everyone gets too fed up)
Can either Zenarius or AlainPlus2 give me an example turn where they have Alain explore for more than four times in one turn? I just tried it with my Alain and couldn't get it to happen consistently. I generally got three explores and sometimes four, but never more than that. If we're saying he is overpowered because he gets that many explores, I'm not seeing it over any other character. I love Imrijka with her ability to explore on defeating monsters and, in my group of chars, she rivals Alain for ability to chew through a deck.
It's not that hard to figure out how to get 4 explores a turn. If you have a weapon and an armor (preferably one that lets you reveal to block combat damage), that's four cards that could be additional explores. If you acquire any cards during your turn, those are also additional explores. Even if you have to discard/recharge a card or two to win fights, you should be able t average 3 additional explores a turn fairly regularly.
Imrijka can't generate anything like that number of explores without discarding cards (though imrijka has other, even more powerful options, but that is for another thread).
It's not that hard to figure out how to get 4 explores a turn. If you have a weapon and an armor (preferably one that lets you reveal to block combat damage), that's four cards that could be additional explores. If you acquire any cards during your turn, those are also additional explores. Even if you have to discard/recharge a card or two to win fights, you should be able t average 3 additional explores a turn fairly regularly.
But that was jduteau' point - if we're only talking about 2-3 extra explores per turn beyond the 'free' one - that doesn't seem especially overpowered, and it doesn't even begin to rival Ranzak, of whom I remember no such high number of complaints.
And if we're talking about more than that - jduteau was asking for an example turn, because - I'm only assuming- all the claims about Alain's 'super-turns' sound as so much conjecture and exaggeration (I'm not saying they don't happen at all, I'm doubting they happen with anywhere near the frequency that would deserve him being nerfed).
Funny, I'm getting the impression all the people complaining about Alain's build, at the end of scenario and rebuilding decks just go "You guys take whatever loot you like, I don't care about anything but mounts. They're all just recharges to me." I'm not saying this isn't a valid way to play, but I usually have my decks pretty specialized, and every card in them matters, and call me weird, but no, in a 2 Barrier location deck, I'm not going to recharge my Masterwork Tools just to get another explore. So maybe that's why I'm not getting the whole 'thing' with the Lancer.
It's not that hard to figure out how to get 4 explores a turn. If you have a weapon and an armor (preferably one that lets you reveal to block combat damage), that's four cards that could be additional explores. If you acquire any cards during your turn, those are also additional explores. Even if you have to discard/recharge a card or two to win fights, you should be able t average 3 additional explores a turn fairly regularly.But that was jduteau' point - if we're only talking about 2-3 extra explores per turn beyond the 'free' one - that doesn't seem especially overpowered, and it doesn't even begin to rival Ranzak, of whom I remember no such high number of complaints.
And if we're talking about more than that - jduteau was asking for an example turn, because - I'm only assuming- all the claims about Alain's 'super-turns' sound as so much conjecture and exaggeration (I'm not saying they don't happen at all, I'm doubting they happen with anywhere near the frequency that would deserve him being nerfed).
Funny, I'm getting the impression all the people complaining about Alain's build, at the end of scenario and rebuilding decks just go "You guys take whatever loot you like, I don't care about anything but mounts. They're all just recharges to me." I'm not saying this isn't a valid way to play, but I usually have my decks pretty specialized, and every card in them matters, and call me weird, but no, in a 2 Barrier location deck, I'm not going to recharge my Masterwork Tools just to get another explore. So maybe that's why I'm not getting the whole 'thing' with the Lancer.
Well, it's *4* extra explores beyond the free one, without any additional work/cards acquired needed. When I ran the math earlier in this thread (making a few back-of-a-napkin fudges about acquisition rates) factoring in acquiring boons, it looked like Ranzak would average .5-1 more explorations a turn than Alain (in large part because of getting two free explores off of many acquired allies/blessings) under pretty average circumstances, but that Alain was netting significant effective self-healing in the process. And, as Josh has pointed out, this also requires junking up Ranzak's deck with a fair number of boons you wouldn't otherwise want, making late-in-the-scenario Ranzak draws....unexceptional. {What you mean? Miss Fairwind take all vendor trash, give Ranzak d6. You no like d6?}
Since people who aren't used to playing with Ranzak aren't used to getting 6-7 explorations a turn, the fact that there's at least one character who explores a little faster than Alain doesn't seem to be much consolation to folks :). (And of course, all the turn-hogging complaints apply equally to a Ranzak who doesn't use his evade power much; perhaps if he had been shipped with the S&S base set instead of being released as a promo, people would complain about him, too.)
While playing more cautiously by holding an extra card or two in reserve for barriers/etc. makes Alain explore a little slower, it equally slows other characters by slowing down their cycling to allies/blessings, so while in absolute terms you're absolutely right that he'll be less of a monster (only 4-5 explores a turn, instead of 6+), if a group takes that approach he'll still be doing a similarly disproportionate share of the exploring.
Clearly, everyone who's annoyed by their party's Alain should switch to Ranzak/Imrijka, and just end scenarios by turn 10 regularly ;). (Actually, Ranzak/Alain is a pretty solid combo, as with a Merchant Lord Ranzak can pass off all his accumulated junk to Alain, generating even more free explores!)
It's not that hard to figure out how to get 4 explores a turn. If you have a weapon and an armor (preferably one that lets you reveal to block combat damage), that's four cards that could be additional explores. If you acquire any cards during your turn, those are also additional explores. Even if you have to discard/recharge a card or two to win fights, you should be able t average 3 additional explores a turn fairly regularly.But that was jduteau' point - if we're only talking about 2-3 extra explores per turn beyond the 'free' one - that doesn't seem especially overpowered, and it doesn't even begin to rival Ranzak, of whom I remember no such high number of complaints.
And if we're talking about more than that - jduteau was asking for an example turn, because - I'm only assuming- all the claims about Alain's 'super-turns' sound as so much conjecture and exaggeration (I'm not saying they don't happen at all, I'm doubting they happen with anywhere near the frequency that would deserve him being nerfed).
Funny, I'm getting the impression all the people complaining about Alain's build, at the end of scenario and rebuilding decks just go "You guys take whatever loot you like, I don't care about anything but mounts. They're all just recharges to me." I'm not saying this isn't a valid way to play, but I usually have my decks pretty specialized, and every card in them matters, and call me weird, but no, in a 2 Barrier location deck, I'm not going to recharge my Masterwork Tools just to get another explore. So maybe that's why I'm not getting the whole 'thing' with the Lancer.
If you've been tracking this thread and can't see it yet, it's unlikely your stance would ever change. I'll just point out 2-3 extra explorations per Alain turn over a 4p game where he starts is 20 cards per game. Just remember the blessings deck. If it still doesn't click, I think there's an impasse.
Alain doesn't concede all cards automatically. We still optimize Alain as best as we can so as to not further self-impose a restriction as we've opted to add "at the beginning of your turn." Alain's optimization is part of how he 99% most combat checks.
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But that was jduteau' point - if we're only talking about 2-3 extra explores per turn beyond the 'free' one - that doesn't seem especially overpowered, and it doesn't even begin to rival Ranzak, of whom I remember no such high number of complaints.
Ranzak was 1) a promo joke character who most people didn't even see, let alone play with and 2) incredibly fragile. Alain is neither, and his mechanism doesn't even involve the risk of possibly dying.
And contrast Alain's ability with Raz's Dog Rider Knight ability:
□ At the start (□ or end) of your turn, you may discard a card from your hand to draw a card that has the Mount trait from your discard pile.
Much less broken.
And, as Josh has pointed out, this also requires junking up Ranzak's deck with a fair number of boons you wouldn't otherwise want, making late-in-the-scenario Ranzak draws....unexceptional.
I'm not sure I get that part. It's common for our Ranzak to end his turn with 3-4 card above hand size, but then his turn ends and he has to discard all the junk he cleared from a location. Are you implying there's some mechanic that allows him to shuffle/recharge the trash into his deck?
And, as Josh has pointed out, this also requires junking up Ranzak's deck with a fair number of boons you wouldn't otherwise want, making late-in-the-scenario Ranzak draws....unexceptional.I'm not sure I get that part. It's common for our Ranzak to end his turn with 3-4 card above hand size, but then his turn ends and he has to discard all the junk he cleared from a location. Are you implying there's some mechanic that allows him to shuffle/recharge the trash into his deck?
Ranzak seems like 1) a separate issue and 2) a potentially higher degree of an issue. That changes nothing about Alain being a problem.
His is just more visible as the primary melee character in the base set. His low risk of dying also means he bears more liberty to apply the ability as often as he wants.
Our Alain parties with Kyra with 2 Pillars of Life and 1 cure. Our Adowyn carries two cures. Nobody's dying.
Let's hope we get a ruling before AD6 arrives!
I'm not saying this isn't a valid way to play, but I usually have my decks pretty specialized, and every card in them matters, and call me weird, but no, in a 2 Barrier location deck, I'm not going to recharge my Masterwork Tools just to get another explore. So maybe that's why I'm not getting the whole 'thing' with the Lancer.
Are you actually playing 'Wrath of the Righteous'?
And, as Josh has pointed out, this also requires junking up Ranzak's deck with a fair number of boons you wouldn't otherwise want, making late-in-the-scenario Ranzak draws....unexceptional.I'm not sure I get that part. It's common for our Ranzak to end his turn with 3-4 card above hand size, but then his turn ends and he has to discard all the junk he cleared from a location. Are you implying there's some mechanic that allows him to shuffle/recharge the trash into his deck?
If your Ranzak ever receives healing, those discarded cards make there way back into your deck and will eventually dilute your hand. Unless you can consistently banish the cards you acquire, ranzak ends up holding a bunch of junk.
Ranzak seems like 1) a separate issue and 2) a potentially higher degree of an issue. That changes nothing about Alain being a problem.
I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just inquiring if perhaps I'm missing something about Ranzak.
Are you actually playing 'Wrath of the Righteous'?
Yes. This was just the simplest example I thought would illustrate my point. I'm aware no one's likely to burn an item slot for Masterwork Tools in WotR.
If your Ranzak ever receives healing, those discarded cards make there way back into your deck and will eventually dilute your hand. Unless you can consistently banish the cards you acquire, ranzak ends up holding a bunch of junk.
I'll chalk it up to playstyle then. Our Ranzak hardly ever gets healing, and even if he gets to shuffle in the worst possible cards, that's usually no more than 4 'garbage' cards, which we don't perceive as such an issue, as to call it 'diluting his deck'.
Ranzak seems like 1) a separate issue and 2) a potentially higher degree of an issue. That changes nothing about Alain being a problem.I wasn't saying otherwise. I was just inquiring if perhaps I'm missing something about Ranzak.
If your Ranzak ever receives healing, those discarded cards make there way back into your deck and will eventually dilute your hand. Unless you can consistently banish the cards you acquire, ranzak ends up holding a bunch of junk.I'll chalk it up to playstyle then. Our Ranzak hardly ever gets healing...
This. Ranzak with a steady stream of healing is the fastest* exploring character in the game. If you have Ranzak play out all his allies/blessings to explore, and then heal them back into his deck before his random acquisitions hit the discards (and before he resets his hand), he can reliably burn through a location in a single turn more often than not. He is highly dependent on party support when facing lots of banes, but also takes better advantage of turn-long buffs (Potion of Heroism, Speed, Divine Fortune) than anybody else, due to the huge number of encounters he can pack into a single turn.
Lancer Alain has a different, quite arguably better (in WotR, certainly) overall package (much better at combat, can self-heal vs. better at boon acquiring/ships/some barriers, slightly faster exploration, can let others handle banes for him, excessively large hand-size), but if his exploration speed *alone* is problematic, then so is Ranzak's.
*(Leaving aside situations only possible with infinite spell looping such as using 'when you play a card/do x, draw a card' powers with the right deck setup). Imrijka has an analogous free-explore power for high-monster situations, but her smaller handsize and greater difficulty acquiring allies for additional explores (not to mention the lower average # of monsters vs. # of boons) put her in a tier behind Ranzak-speed.
Winged Mounts in Wrath let Alain hit multiple locations in one turn. My memory of skull and shackles is that Ranzak tended to burn through single locations and before he needed to catch his breath.
Winged Mounts in Wrath let Alain hit multiple locations in one turn. My memory of skull and shackles is that Ranzak tended to burn through single locations and before he needed to catch his breath.
That does require encountering and acquiring flying mounts, at least. It gets worse than that:
□ On your turn, discard a card that has the Mount trait (□ or put it on the top of your deck) to move to another location and examine the top card of that location deck. If it is a monster, you may encounter it.
So once he gets a second power feat on his role card, all mounts are flying mounts. That, I think, is what takes Alain from Ranzak/Imrijka explore monster into "Is this even fun anymore?" territory. But I do not speak from experience.
I think we need to take this out of theoretical theorycraft land and into numbers theorycraft land :P
I think the best way to do it is for there to be a PACG Olympics.
I'll set a thread up with the necessary ground rules and stuff. Like highest max burst damage, highest average burst damage, highest minimum burst damage, highest number of explores a turn, etc.
I'll never have a better friend than Donahan.
Let's hope we get a ruling before AD6 arrives!
*fingers crossed*
We're working on it. We know we will do something. We are testing what to do.
Cool mike, thanks! :)
We're working on it. We know we will do something. We are testing what to do.
Great news, Mike. Thank you.
Today is AD in the mail day! Can't wait to peep those promos! 5-5 and 6-1 Friday! Giddy up Donny!
No spoilers here, but the end of the deck will be rough for Alain.
No spoilers here, but the end of the deck will be rough for Alain.
Glad I have the best team to carry me across the finish line. Shout out to the BGHO!
Our AD6 just arrived... hope the adjustment comes soon..
we have run through 6-3 now and holy griffon batman.
Omg I see what you mean... With that its a +12 combat to every recursive explore, continuously.. for free..
Can we please have a ruling soon? Even an interim one would help.
TGIF fun : Picture the poor Alain still unable to choose his role card after 233 posts, while the rest of the group is finishing AD6.
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Still on it. I'm writing a blog post that will explain how decisions like this get made. Won't be long.
Andrew, you just spoiled Mike's blog.
Indeed they do.
Still on it. I'm writing a blog post that will explain how decisions like this get made. Won't be long.
Thanks for this.
Like a lot of people, I've made my thoughts on this particular character known in some detail, but I think it's great for the game when you give us a peek into the design process.
Still on it. I'm writing a blog post that will explain how decisions like this get made. Won't be long.Thanks for this.
Like a lot of people, I've made my thoughts on this particular character known in some detail, but I think it's great for the game when you give us a peek into the design process.
Much appreciated and (wow.. A blog? Were just expecting a simple faq)
Come to think of it, that reflects how much this is treated seriously. Ppl feel very strongly about their characters in games like these - am glad even 'small' (?) (heh) changes aren't taken lightly.
There are lots of people on both sides of "should we make a change here" discussion. We take both opinions very seriously.
Agreed this decision isn't obvious at all.
Uh-huh. And we will address this next week.
I'm a pirate, therefore I'm on my own side.
Glad we put AD6 on hold! Sounds like we will finish our epic quest properly.
We changed this power to make it work only if you recharge a weapon or an armor.
Much thanks & appreciation mike! That was an awesome blog post.