After looking through the Mesmer and Archetypes I find myself dissatisfied with the capstone ability. Probably because permanently enslaving someone mentally ranks up there with rape and institutional slavery as far as evil deeds that will cause a player character to get kicked out of the party among my groups.
However the next game I'm running will be heavily psychic themed, likely to go to level 20 and some amount of mythic ranks, and I want Mesmer to be a class choice.
Therefore I need a substitute feature to offer for people who don't want to make their automatic class features a huge controversy that will grind the plot to a halt.
Any suggestions?
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You could replace it with a free permanent personal mindscape, maybe? That could be pretty cool for a mythic team to have!
Wait... You don't want the "Mind Control capstone" because it's mind control... On the mindcontrol class... There is a reason the iconic is evil in alignment....
Wait... You don't want the "Mind Control capstone" because it's mind control... On the mindcontrol class... There is a reason the iconic is evil in alignment....
Mind control class is one very valid way to use the mesmerist.
However, if that was the only way it would have a alignment requirement to be Evil. The mesmerist has a variety of helpful forms of hypnotism (tricks and touch treatment) that suit player morals just fine.
Additionally there are some circumstances where dominate person is an acceptable ability (like when someone is going to kill you), but controlling a person 24/7 for the rest of their life is not one of them.
You could give it an ability called "Imposing Presence" which would allow you to apply the effects of your stares to any creature who can see you as an immediate action, and allows you to have a number of creatures under the effects of your stare equal to the Mesmerist's Charisma modifier.
This is a cool idea.
You could replace it with a free permanent personal mindscape, maybe? That could be pretty cool for a mythic team to have!
This is a really fun idea, but I think it might make the Mesmerist feel like they're giving up their ultimate ability to the rest of the party.
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This is a really fun idea, but I think it might make the Mesmerist feel like they're giving up their ultimate ability to the rest of the party.
If the party starts taking it for granted, they should remember one thing: the mesmerist is the one in control in the mindscape! For instance, even if not sinister at all, a playful mesmerist could perform some hilarious pranks on others in his mindscape.
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When dealing with a truly horrific, evil enemy, whom is vastly powerful, and a threat to the world- I don't see the problem with bringing him or her to heel. It's not as 'honorable' as just killing this villain, but some would see it as justice for a tyrant, by making use of their powers to help destroy other evils in the world. Of course it could eventually backfire if control is broken.
That's just one take. I can totally see where you're coming from though.
A good Mesmerist is a challenging character to roleplay, but in my opinion it's a very interesting and fun challenge.
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When dealing with a truly horrific, evil enemy, whom is vastly powerful, and a threat to the world- I don't see the problem with bringing him or her to heel. It's not as 'honorable' as just killing this villain, but some would see it as justice for a tyrant, by making use of their powers to help destroy other evils in the world. Of course it could eventually backfire if control is broken.
That's just one take. I can totally see where you're coming from though.
A good Mesmerist is a challenging character to roleplay, but in my opinion it's a very interesting and fun challenge.
I'm currently playing a Chaotic Good Mesmerist who is a healer (without the Cure spells, yeah I know..) But he's going to be more focused on rehabilitation and therapeutic treatment. He makes use of hypnosis, mindscapes, touch treatments and all that good stuff to help people work through their issues and he's got a killer bonus to bluff/diplomacy/intimidate. He's also a quasi-follower of Sarenrae and wields a scimitar (heirloom weapon trait). Having a blast so far.
I do kind of find the whole 'permanent thrall' thing a bit much for a good aligned character. Especially for a chaotic good character. I'll be exploring alternatives further down the road.
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I'm currently playing a Chaotic Good Mesmerist who is a healer (without the Cure spells, yeah I know..) But he's going to be more focused on rehabilitation and therapeutic treatment. He makes use of hypnosis, mindscapes, touch treatments and all that good stuff to help people work through their issues and he's got a killer bonus to bluff/diplomacy/intimidate. He's also a quasi-follower of Sarenrae and wields a scimitar (heirloom weapon trait). Having a blast so far.
Looks like we are of the same mind on this type of character.
I created an NPC Mesmer who specializes in this form of trauma healing. I guess in a world where your village as been raided one too many times, and your wife went missing, only to return and try and drink your blood- there is a good niche for this kind of healer.
Of course this character has no problem mind-slapping the hell out of those responsible for harming these people in the first place. :)
I've been thinking it could be cool to see a character who gains control of the battlefield flow and uses it to consistently boost himself and allies
how about something like this(I don't really play or know much about 20+ combat, so beef up/change values as appropriate:
Battle Flow: The Mesmerist can target any opponent or ally as a free action with an attack targeting their Will vs 20+ the Mesmerists Int(I think that is the mesmerists base stat, but IDK), If the attack fails by 4 or less then the mesmerist may not use it on that target again for that turn, if it fails by 5-7 the target gets a bonus to their will save against further uses of this ability for 24 hours, if the attack fails by 8 or more the target gains immunity for 24 hours
every successful attack allows you to either:
1. give the target +x to each attack and +x to AC
2. give the target -x to each attack and -x to AC
3. give the target +x to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate
or
4. give the target -x to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate
where x equals the number of those under the influence of a successful attack, each attack can only be made on your initiative, and lasts until the end of your next turn. If used outside of battle, the effect lasts a minute.
Neat idea, but it seems like it would need a lot of development to create a balanced version.
The idea of a personal mindscape has grown on me and I think I'm using that one.
Also Mesmer's don't have the cure spells? Huh. I wonder why not.
Do mesmerist not have any sort of temporrary HP effects? Fake healing (heals more but is only temporary) would have been wonderful design space for a mesmerist.
They have some tricks that do that.
Just reffluff it as gaining a groupie. The monster sees how handsome and cool you are so it decides to be your biggest fan
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Professor X can gain permanent control of anyone he wants. He chooses not to, and that is what makes him good. Sometimes he will take control of someone entirely in order to stop a nuclear war or save a life, and then will immediately free them.
The ability isn't what makes one good or evil, it's what one does with it.
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Personally I kind of like the idea of keeping a succubus enthralled for 50 years or so, just to show it what that's like.
But for an alternate capstone ability, how about Permanent tricks, where they can have one of a few capstone only tricks applied to one character at a time, being able to change the trick as a standard action, either to a new option or a new target. Possible tricks could include:
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they do not age naturally, and can not die from old age.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they are immune to mind effecting, compulsion, and fear effects, as well as spells or spell-like abilities from the enchantment and illusion schools.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they do not die at negative hit points equal to their constitution score. Instead they only die at negative hit points equal to half their total hit points, in addition anytime they make a save against a negative energy effect, they can roll twice and take the higher result.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they are immune to the fatigued, exhausted, staggered, dazed, and stunned conditions. In addition the character does not need to sleep, and is immune to magical sleep effects, though may choose to sleep if they desire.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they receive a +2 to all ability scores. Additionally, once per day they can take 20 on an ability or skill check without increasing the time required for the check, and may do so even when distracted or normally unable to take 10 or 20.
I'm sure there are some other good options, but that's just what I came up with off the top of my head. It definitely works a lot better than the current capstone for good mesmerists, and seem pretty on par with a number of capstone abilities. Though changing the time required to implant it might not be a bad idea.
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Professor X can gain permanent control of anyone he wants. He chooses not to, and that is what makes him good. Sometimes he will take control of someone entirely in order to stop a nuclear war or save a life, and then will immediately free them.
The ability isn't what makes one good or evil, it's what one does with it.
Magneto would disagree.
Personally I kind of like the idea of keeping a succubus enthralled for 50 years or so, just to show it what that's like.
In my campaign setting outsiders are people with just as much moral agency as they had in life, or just as much moral agency as they had since they were created. Thus there is no "it's fine to do x, because they're irredeemable evil" pass. Even if there was paying evil unto evil is an evil act (in my games).
But for an alternate capstone ability, how about Permanent tricks, where they can have one of a few capstone only tricks applied to one character at a time, being able to change the trick as a standard action, either to a new option or a new target. Possible tricks could include:
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they do not age naturally, and can not die from old age.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they are immune to mind effecting, compulsion, and fear effects, as well as spells or spell-like abilities from the enchantment and illusion schools.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they do not die at negative hit points equal to their constitution score. Instead they only die at negative hit points equal to half their total hit points, in addition anytime they make a save against a negative energy effect, they can roll twice and take the higher result.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they are immune to the fatigued, exhausted, staggered, dazed, and stunned conditions. In addition the character does not need to sleep, and is immune to magical sleep effects, though may choose to sleep if they desire.
While the target is under the effect of this trick, they receive a +2 to all ability scores. Additionally, once per day they can take 20 on an ability or skill check without increasing the time required for the check, and may do so even when distracted or normally unable to take 10 or 20.
I'm sure there are some other good options, but that's just what I came up with off the top of my head. It definitely works a lot better than the current capstone for good mesmerists, and seem pretty on par with a number of capstone abilities. Though changing the time required to implant it might not be a bad idea.
I like these, might need a bit of tuning but they're really cool.
Professor X can gain permanent control of anyone he wants. He chooses not to, and that is what makes him good.
That's nice and all, but I play in a game that despite all the narrative we stack onto it to turn it into a good experience should still be balanced at the end of the day, and telling someone. "You're end game power is basically useless for 99% of the encounters and you get nothing to compensate" is a s&%#ty conversation to have when it's not an optional feature.
Sometimes he will take control of someone entirely in order to stop a nuclear war or save a life, and then will immediately free them.
Cool. That's what dominate person is for. This ability is strictly above and beyond that for the express purpose of having a 24/7 slave.
The ability isn't what makes one good or evil, it's what one does with it.
And a terrible way to balance a game is to give everyone a capstone reward with no heavy morality restriction except the one guy who wanted to play Mesmer.
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I was wondering... what if you simply changed the character permanently rather than dominate them?
Say that the result of the current effect was changed from dominating someone, to changing their alignment as you see fit(as well as goals) and bumping them from hostile all the way to the best highest step of diplomatic relations with your character... then for a good mesmerist it would be like allying and repenting a character rather than killing them.
That won't work. Me and my group have had the "Is it okay to brainwash an evil person in order to make them good" talk before. Still dings as an extremely evil action that's not gonna rip apart the party. It might work for other groups though (maybe in a gray and grey morality game?), so good suggestion regardless.
I was wondering... what if you simply changed the character permanently rather than dominate them?
Say that the result of the current effect was changed from dominating someone, to changing their alignment as you see fit(as well as goals) and bumping them from hostile all the way to the best highest step of diplomatic relations with your character... then for a good mesmerist it would be like allying and repenting a character rather than killing them.
That won't work. Me and my group have had the "Is it okay to brainwash an evil person in order to make them good" talk before. Still dings as an extremely evil action that's not gonna rip apart the party. It might work for other groups though (maybe in a gray and grey morality game?), so good suggestion regardless.
I just want to mention, I understand where you're coming from, but in our (very black-and-white morality) games, there is a limit to how much evil a creature can perpetrate and still be granted normal "rights" - free will is a thing, and it's important, but if a being has (intentionally or not) chosen to waive those rights by their own actions towards others, then they have (intentionally or not) chosen to waive those rights by their own actions towards others.
Of course, we don't just stop at the dominating. The point is never "dominate the bad guy". The point is always "stop the bad guy from doing evil things; get good things done instead" and, to that end, permanent thralldom, automatic alignment change, etc. tend to work better... when used for the betterment of all.
Of course, in the real world, this is terrifying: we don't have an absolute code telling us where we're going astray. In a world with objective morality (as in Pathfinder) things can be much easier.
This is, of course, not to say that your group is "doing it wrong" but merely to point out how a strong morality conceit can still allow such things to exist (whether or not you personally agree with it, which is fine, one way or the other).
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I was wondering... what if you simply changed the character permanently rather than dominate them?
Say that the result of the current effect was changed from dominating someone, to changing their alignment as you see fit(as well as goals) and bumping them from hostile all the way to the best highest step of diplomatic relations with your character... then for a good mesmerist it would be like allying and repenting a character rather than killing them.
That won't work. Me and my group have had the "Is it okay to brainwash an evil person in order to make them good" talk before. Still dings as an extremely evil action that's not gonna rip apart the party. It might work for other groups though (maybe in a gray and grey morality game?), so good suggestion regardless.I just want to mention, I understand where you're coming from, but in our (very black-and-white morality) games, there is a limit to how much evil a creature can perpetrate and still be granted normal "rights" - free will is a thing, and it's important, but if a being has (intentionally or not) chosen to waive those rights by their own actions towards others, then they have (intentionally or not) chosen to waive those rights by their own actions towards others.
Of course, we don't just stop at the dominating. The point is never "dominate the bad guy". The point is always "stop the bad guy from doing evil things; get good things done instead" and, to that end, permanent thralldom, automatic alignment change, etc. tend to work better... when used for the betterment of all.
Of course, in the real world, this is terrifying: we don't have an absolute code telling us where we're going astray. In a world with objective morality (as in Pathfinder) things can be much easier.
This is, of course, not to say that your group is "doing it wrong" but merely to point out how a strong morality conceit can still allow such things to exist (whether or not you personally agree with it,...
No, I totally understand where you're coming from. However my current group is white-and-gray morality (at least in game, not sure everyone's personal philosophies but I doubt it matters) so the general line of thinking is "You can do X to prevent further harm, but certain punishments are never permissible once someone is captured/neutralized no matter how wicked their actions. (ex. torture, mind wipes, mind control, etc)."
Therefore the idea of "we've defeated the 'bad guy', time to make him my thrall forever" is morally unacceptable in games where we are not playing the 'bad guys'/allowing 'bad guys' and 'good guys' to work together.
It should probably be noted there's a lot of heavy after-conflict roleplay in my group, and the full implication of things that might be glossed over in other genres tends to be explored. (ex. People feeling guilt and trauma over being forced to do something against their will via mind control).
I want to see a Mesmerist Capstone ability that makes it immune to true seeing and see invisibility effects or anything that lets a creature auto-bypass illusion magic.. Now THAT is a capstone that any alignment can get behind. Maybe also give it DR/- when benefitting from illusion spells like invisibility.
It should probably be noted there's a lot of heavy after-conflict roleplay in my group, and the full implication of things that might be glossed over in other genres tends to be explored. (ex. People feeling guilt and trauma over being forced to do something against their will via mind control).
That's actually where many of our games live, which is one of the reasons why it (conversely) works so well for us.
Probably the best example of "how" this works, is my Kingmaker king - a character who, to the best of his ability, is lawful good... who is also a telepath and wizard with vast mind-altering powers.
The ultimate thing about him, though, is that, no matter how long the dominations, charms, or hypnotisms, the point is never having the creatures under his power. He doesn't care about that. He cares about managing a country of people, allowing them to fulfill their own greatness, and making sure that everyone more or less gets along. To that end, he'll alter alignments and control minds, but only so long as it takes to work creatures beyond their "I'm going to kill my neighbors"... "phase"... thing... that they're "going through". Thereafter they are promptly freed, and hopefully don't have to do that again.
However, the malevolent entity in question may always "opt out" of the punishment by (voluntarily) undergoing "therapy" - effectively a transformation of character from one thing into another. Before they undergo this, the full details are explained: they will cease to be evil (though retaining their memories and experiences) and become good. The preference (via diplomacy) is generally toward lawful good, but any good alignment is acceptable.
This treatment is voluntary with the exception of those who are, for whatever reason, unable to be redeemed "normally" (due to being a crazed animal, a demon, or just a monster that must feed on the blood of the living). In those cases, they creature is given a choice: be killed (and have it ensured that you stay very, very dead), or undergo this.
Most usually, however, the choice is made posthumously - the creature is killed (because it is in the act of doing something awful), and then its spirit is spoken with and offered the deal.
If accepted, the creature is reincarnated into a new form, and undergo several lifetime's worth of experiences within their dreams, "slowly" explaining and teaching the nature of morality and moral choices, and how to make good-aligned ones. Due to the innate malevolence and, in some cases, eons of evil that the creature has behind them, mental compulsions are used to overcome those innate hurdles (with the clear understand that, at any time, the creature could "opt out" of this treatment and return to the afterlife from whence they were drawn). With tremendous diplomacy and sense motive, and lots of magic to assist in the confirmation, the creature is rehabilitated as a lawful good member of society, and then allowed to go their own way and live in (relative) peace anywhere they so-choose.
In all cases, however, no matter how "permanent" the thralldom, the ultimate goal is to rehabilitate the person so that they no longer need it - the "permanency" is, then, actually temporary, just "permanent" when compared to "normal" durations of such things... (I suppose, then, it should be called "indefinite".)
The magic is the "thing" - it's the therapy, diplomacy, and reasoning that are the ultimate tools of persuasion. The magic is just necessary to allow some things to live while using those tools.
(So far, we've only had two "major" villains that have stayed dead. The rest now live happy, fulfilling****, productive lives.)
* There are, of course, limits to this. However these are definitively corner cases, especially given the resources generally made available.
** Rather loosely defined as "those who live legally within our borders.
*** Yes.
**** Fulfilling according to themselves, not fulfilling according to compulsions given.
((Then, of course, there are the vast, vast, vast majority of people who are never even considered for such things. Point in fact, resurrection is generally given away freely to citizens and non-citizens alike; generally it is requested that non-citizens join the country, considering, but that's more of a formal request instead of a strict demand, and people are worked with based on their actual needs and lives (many are not raised, especially those who were good and have died of old age, as well as those already Judged by Pharasma; generally speaking the families and spirits are counseled and guided beyond such things, but where death was unjust and it's possible, the creature is raised). Generally speaking, the government takes an extraordinarily loose hand in things.))
In the end, I think we're saying similar things, "Dominating a creature forever is not a 'good' thing" but we're saying it to a matter of degrees. I tend to interpret that as an "indefinite" rather than "permanent" duration, and, to that end, I can see it as a really useful tool for those who wish to go forth, assist, and rehabilitate those who would normally just be slain. I think that's probably how the Dev team envisioned a good Mesmer using it, in the first place.
But I can definitely understand that folks have different things that they focus on, or that set them off, or that are just really difficult to go through or play. For us, it's just different. But that's cool! I hope some of the ideas presented here help your group!
If you're not opposed to Leadership, you might give folk a Leadership or possibly even double its strength or something. I'm not sure.
Either way, good gaming! :D
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