This.
Hell, I have Morgar as an officer in the Ravens right now, largely because the PCs found him fun, lack a meat shield, and I rolled that event that's a dispute between organization leaders and decided it would be fun to have Morgar pitch to be an officer.
Rexus, before he was one-shotted by a Nessian Hell Hound, was a recruiter, adviser, and researcher for the rebellion, while moonlighting as an officer for a second organization, a cult run by a PC.
Each PC
I find it quite complicated because the price limits suggested are actually quite hard to find things for
Also already quite strong PCs are significantly powered up by bonus feats and items
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Each PC
I find it quite complicated because the price limits suggested are actually quite hard to find things for
Only when you get towards the end of the progression, by which point the rebellion can (unless your PCs have neglected their merchants) generate magic items at black markets, and by which point the rebellion is assumed to have rich friends in Vyre and among the nobility.
Also already quite strong PCs are significantly powered up by bonus feats and items
I agree so strongly with this that should I ever get the chance to run Hell's Rebels, I'll be removing the bonus feats and skill points as rewards.
I will say that I'm thinking that the gifts are worth a half a CR boost. On the other hand, the bonus skill points are nice for character development. There's quite a few obscure craft and perform skills with 1-2 points in my party.
I've been viewing the Rebellion boons as a reward to the pc's/players for running the Rebellion. I haven't found them that disruptive or overpowering - my pc's are 6th level near the end of Book 2 and the Rebellion at rank 8 (soon to be 9.) Of course I often change NPC/monster tactics (read as improve monster tactics) so my players may need every advantage they can get.
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I've been viewing the Rebellion boons as a reward to the pc's/players for running the Rebellion. I haven't found them that disruptive or overpowering - my pc's are 6th level near the end of Book 2 and the Rebellion at rank 8 (soon to be 9.) Of course I often change NPC/monster tactics (read as improve monster tactics) so my players may need every advantage they can get.
My players just finished book 2 and are built with 25 point buy and there are 6 of them! Those extra skills and feats still don't hold a candle to the extra power boost that mythic tiers gave in Wrath of the Righteous at this point in the AP.
I also adjust monster tactics and add +50% extra of the weakest type in an encounter. Named NPCs get the advanced simple template to boot.
The Rebellion mechanic is a fantastic way to not only involve the PCs in the game more as it is a mini game, but it gives you an opportunity to flesh out Kintargo more during the Rebellion week. Ask each PC what they are doing during the week beyond running an op as an officer. Are the spellcasters crafting anything? Do any of the PCs want to make a Craft, Profession, or Perform check for a day job? With each of these checks you can have them interact with a citizen of Kintargo that might help with those checks. Same thing with the Random encounter checks. Even if they don't pull an encounter highlight a new place or NPC. Even just flavor text like they see children throwing stones at pigeons, or the Chelish Citizens Group is stomping through a garden in Redroof that's growing mint, or pestering students in Villegre for wearing clothes that skew too close to being embroidered. Dottari could be exiting a shop after inspecting for a requisite portrait of the Queen.
-Lucky shamVrock
Urheil, the potion/magic item/armor is for the entire group, as is the XP Reward. The Gold gift is per party member. It was talked about earlier in this thread, probably in the first five pages if I'm remembering right.
I've been viewing the Rebellion boons as a reward to the pc's/players for running the Rebellion. I haven't found them that disruptive or overpowering - my pc's are 6th level near the end of Book 2 and the Rebellion at rank 8 (soon to be 9.) Of course I often change NPC/monster tactics (read as improve monster tactics) so my players may need every advantage they can get.My players just finished book 2 and are built with 25 point buy and there are 6 of them! Those extra skills and feats still don't hold a candle to the extra power boost that mythic tiers gave in Wrath of the Righteous at this point in the AP.
I also adjust monster tactics and add +50% extra of the weakest type in an encounter. Named NPCs get the advanced simple template to boot.
The Rebellion mechanic is a fantastic way to not only involve the PCs in the game more as it is a mini game, but it gives you an opportunity to flesh out Kintargo more during the Rebellion week. Ask each PC what they are doing during the week beyond running an op as an officer. Are the spellcasters crafting anything? Do any of the PCs want to make a Craft, Profession, or Perform check for a day job? With each of these checks you can have them interact with a citizen of Kintargo that might help with those checks. Same thing with the Random encounter checks. Even if they don't pull an encounter highlight a new place or NPC. Even just flavor text like they see children throwing stones at pigeons, or the Chelish Citizens Group is stomping through a garden in Redroof that's growing mint, or pestering students in Villegre for wearing clothes that skew too close to being embroidered. Dottari could be exiting a shop after inspecting for a requisite portrait of the Queen.
-Lucky shamVrock
The thing about Wrath of the Righteous is I assume the enemies are adjusted accordingly - such as having tiers of their own
Hells Rebels does not do this so even though it is a relatively minor bump it is still a bump and is noticeable given how poor a lot of enemy tactics , ACs and, in the case of levelled NPCs - builds/stats tend to be throughout (not unique to this AP)...
The thing to recall is that the APs are designed for four players with 15-point builds. Monsters themselves assume players have a 15-point build. Now, that 25-point build? It is the equivalent to adding +1 to every single stat a monster has. This may mean a monster has more skill points, does more damage, has more hit points, or does more damage.
+2 to each stat is the same as a 37-point build.
+3 to each stat is the same as a 51-point build.
So you can have a high-stat campaign... and then compensate by increasing the stats of the monsters in turn.
The other thing to consider is this: Action Economy is Everything. When you have one added character, there are two to three more actions available to the party. That rises to four to six actions with a sixth player. You will want to compensate by adding added minions... and if there is a situation with one foe? Give them minions (that aren't Undead unless your party doesn't include Clerics) or maybe the ability to cast Swift Summon Monster spells.
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On an unrelated note, I recently loaded the map for Kintargo into Roll20 and came across an amusing little thing of note: on that first day, your party is marching ALL OVER Kintargo. Seriously, the group starts at J3/J4 in southern Kintargo. The bookstore is located around 400 feet away from teh site of the riot, though you can assume the party moved closer to the Saltworks before hopefully rescuing Rexus.
They then go 3,200 feet (or over half a mile) and into the bad part of town (near the Devil's Nursery) before reaching the Livery... and from the livery it's another 5,200 feet as the crow flies to reach Laria's coffeeshop.
Assuming the Protest outside the opera house starts at 9 a.m. and the riot breaks out at noon, it's probably between 1 and 2 in the afternoon when they reach the Livery, and past 3 when they reach Laria's. Fortunately, curfew isn't until 9 p.m. if, like with my group, the majority of the group are minor nobles or the like.
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The thing to recall is that the APs are designed for four players with 15-point builds. Monsters themselves assume players have a 15-point build. Now, that 25-point build? It is the equivalent to adding +1 to every single stat a monster has. This may mean a monster has more skill points, does more damage, has more hit points, or does more damage...
On an unrelated note, I recently loaded the map for Kintargo into Roll20 and came across an amusing little thing of note: on that first day, your party is marching ALL OVER Kintargo. Seriously, the group starts at J3/J4 in southern Kintargo. The bookstore is located around 400 feet away from teh site of the riot, though you can assume the party moved closer to the Saltworks before hopefully rescuing Rexus.
They then go 3,200 feet (or over half a mile) and into the bad part of town (near the Devil's Nursery) before reaching the Livery... and from the livery it's another 5,200 feet as the crow flies to reach Laria's coffeeshop.
Assuming the Protest outside the opera house starts at 9 a.m. and the riot breaks out at noon, it's probably between 1 and 2 in the afternoon when they reach the Livery, and past 3 when they reach Laria's. Fortunately, curfew isn't until 9 p.m. if, like with my group, the majority of the group are minor nobles or the like.
Originally my group was going to be only 2 of my players as a side game between our normal group playing through Iron God's, but our GM got burned out between teaching and prepping his game. So my game got super sized and instead of rebuilding characters I let everyone have 25pts. I'm used to adjusting APs for 6 players so it's really not that hard for me to adjust encounters and DCs.
As for walking all over town, unless you have small or heavily armored characters the party is going to move at roughly 300 feet per minute in local movement. Getting around town isn't too difficult on foot. Kintargo is super walkable! I basically roll for random encounters anytime the party moves from one place to another. If no encounter is rolled I still try to highlight one of the named NPCs and their location in whichever district the PCs are in. It's a great way to have the party learn about the city and interact with future supporters. Those relationships really come into play in book 3, so try and foster them.
--Vrockter Scholls
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The thing about Wrath of the Righteous is I assume the enemies are adjusted accordingly - such as having tiers of their own
Hells Rebels does not do this so even though it is a relatively minor bump it is...
Unfortunately after book 2 if you don't tweak the enemies, your PCs using the Mythic rules RAW will quickly overpower them. Mythic while a great idea had some issues in implementation. Legendary Games has great fixes for this though so I used their products a lot.
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Urheil, the potion/magic item/armor is for the entire group, as is the XP Reward. The Gold gift is per party member. It was talked about earlier in this thread, probably in the first five pages if I'm remembering right.
Per the Hell's Rebels player's guide...
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
--School of Vrock
We had a rather interesting game this time around.
After the Skald rolled a Natural 20 for Diplomacy and getting the Fushi sisters to work for them, the group slowly started building up on the Silver Ravens... and nearing the end of the second week, I had Laria tell them about the Salt Works. So they decided to go after dark. And then they chose to try and be... tricky.
They contemplated sending in the halfling (who's batspit insane, calls himself King Under the Mountain and lives in a basement of a burned out building in the Devil's Nursery) as a worker to get information, but that idea fortunately vanished by the time they showed up. They then thought about showing up as Cheliax superiors checking in on the dwarf until I pointed out the time (it being past curfew) made that less-than-likely. Finally they went in and then took prisoners - keeping people from bleeding out and not killing anyone.
They succeeded in leaving with the prisoners on one try (the dice were amused and awarded them maximum Notoriety (4)) which leaves me wondering... what would Kossrani do when he wakes up and finds his men are shackled in the room where the prisoners were kept? Mind you, these guys are spouting tales about the Silver Ravens showing up (because they naturally called themselves Silver Ravens and even offered the guards a job working for the Rebellion instead)... so the maximum Notoriety makes sense. But I have to wonder what happens to the dwarf. Kossrani isn't dumb - he's got an Int. of 12, and a Wis. of 10 - so he can try telling Barzillai about these "Silver Ravens" but that risks making him look bad. I mean, he was ASLEEP on site when the prisoners were sprung from the Salt Works
Not that the players will notice. After all, next session they'll have a certain bit of sabotage happen at the Wasp's Lair... ;) but I still would like to have some ideas especially as I can use the Rumors to expand on what happened.
Did they face any after curfew encounters instead of the proper salt works challenge ?
I don’t think the AP is supposed to assume you dodge the main fights by sneaking around at night and there be no consequences for it
But a well organised group can succeed the stealth so I guess that is what happened
I was under the impression that the salt works wasn’t an official operation anyway. So he would never go to Thrune about it
Perhaps have him join the unsanctioned excrutiation ?
They managed to roll above a 15 for Stealth for avoiding patrols both times. Seeing they didn't try sneaking across the bridge, I didn't hit them with added penalties. (One of the players lives in the Devil's Nursery slums so they had a place they could get Crow and his band of ne'er do gooders rather than heading all the way back to Laria's shop.)
Mind you, it took spending a Hero Point to ensure that roll for the Skald but....
The Sallix Salt Works is a semi-official operation. Kossrani works for Thrune and the Church as a thug. But he's been selling salt to the black market and Barzillai actually knows he's been doing this, which is why Barzillai doesn't act should something untoward happen to him.
But all that happened was two of his guards were hurt badly (one down to -5 before stabilized), a third at 0 hit points, and the last down to 2 hit points, and the prisoners freed (and the strongbox looted). Given that just four guards gave them a tough time (with the Skald reduced by a third of her hit points and the Rogue/Grey Paladin down by 10), it's probably a good thing they didn't run into Kossrani as he'd probably have proven quite problematic (and they'd have had a fourth CCG thug fighting rather than running to try and get the boss).
Urheil, the potion/magic item/armor is for the entire group, as is the XP Reward. The Gold gift is per party member. It was talked about earlier in this thread, probably in the first five pages if I'm remembering right.Per the Hell's Rebels player's guide...
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
--School of Vrock
Not quite. The wording is confusing, but the first two sentences help explain it.
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
At rank 3, the gift is a single potion worth 300 gp or less.
The gifts given at ranks 6, 11, and 16 are all provided as tributes of gold pieces in the amounts listed; each PC gains the listed amount.
At rank 8, the gift is a piece of armor or wand worth 1,200 gp or less. Wands are fully charged (and cost the appropriate amount).
At rank 13, the gift is a wand or weapon worth 5,000 gp or less. Wands are fully charged (and cost the appropriate amount).
At rank 18, the gift is any magic item worth 10,000 gp or less.
If each gift were for each player, it would specify that at the very start. But given the "single potion" in the first sentence and specifying the tribute in gold pieces is for each PC there is the strong case to saying it's only one item that the group then decides who would get what.
Given how much magic items and the like cost, it makes sense it wouldn't be for everyone. And it also allows the GM to custom-provide an item for a specific player (unless, like I'm doing, you're using the Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression rules).
But what does the “each PC” part refer to then?
I have given individual things to each member - which sounds like a misinterpretation?
I suppose it depends on the GM. If you don't find it overpowers things, then go for it. :)
I suppose it depends on the GM. If you don't find it overpowers things, then go for it. :)
Oh don’t get me wrong I think it probably does - but it is a little too late now!
We had a rather interesting game this time around.... [befriending Tengu, sneaking around, not killing enemies]
That's awesome!
Kossrani being punished would make sense... I'd suggest he's imprisoned for a little while and then eventually doghoused by Thrune, which would give the PCs a chance to rescue him and get him on their side, if you wanted. Which is a nice way to show that sometimes keeping enemies alive is a good thing.I don’t think the AP is supposed to assume you dodge the main fights by sneaking around at night and there be no consequences for it
But it does assume that the players may attack at night and says that Kossrani would be asleep if they were to do so.
...if the PCs attack at night, the guards on duty attempt to flee to the barracks to wake Kossrani at the earliest opportunity.
And besides, if the players come up with a creative/smart way to avoid a fight, why not allow it to work?
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Urheil, the potion/magic item/armor is for the entire group, as is the XP Reward. The Gold gift is per party member. It was talked about earlier in this thread, probably in the first five pages if I'm remembering right.Per the Hell's Rebels player's guide...
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
--School of Vrock
Not quite. The wording is confusing, but the first two sentences help explain it.
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
At rank 3, the gift is a single potion worth 300 gp or less.
The gifts given at ranks 6, 11, and 16 are all provided as tributes of gold pieces in the amounts listed; each PC gains the listed amount.
At rank 8, the gift is a piece of armor or wand worth 1,200 gp or less. Wands are fully charged (and cost the appropriate amount).
At rank 13, the gift is a wand or weapon worth 5,000 gp or less. Wands are fully charged (and cost the appropriate amount).
At rank 18, the gift is any magic item worth 10,000 gp or less.
If each gift were for each player, it would specify that at the very start. But given the "single potion" in the first sentence and specifying the tribute in gold pieces is for each PC there is the strong case to saying it's only one item that the group then decides who would get what.
Given how much magic items and the like cost, it makes sense it wouldn't be for everyone. And it also allows the GM to custom-provide an item for a specific player (unless, like I'm doing, you're using the Unchained Automatic Bonus Progression rules).
Nope. I think you are misinterpreting it. In the very section you quoted the first line is:
Gift: At rank 3, then again at ranks 6, 8, 11, 13, 16, and 18, admirers among the rebellion’s supporters supply gifts and tributes to each PC.
The statement very explicitly states both and tribute are given to each pc.
The next line reads:
At rank 3, the gift is a single potion worth 300 gp or less.
Meaning each pc gets ONE potion of 300gp or less. So they can't get three potions worth a total of 300.
"If each gift were for each player, it would specify that at the very start." But that's exactly what it says. In the first line.
I suppose it depends on the GM. If you don't find it overpowers things, then go for it. :)
I'd also suggest it's not that overpowering.
At rank 8, the gift is a piece of armor or wand worth 1,200 gp or less. Wands are fully charged (and cost the appropriate amount).
What level are the pc's when the Rebellion hits Rank 8? Probably 6th, maybe 7th?
A piece of armor worth less than 1200 is basically suite of +1 light armor given +1 costs 1000 and masterwork costs 150 so the base armor has to be 50gp or less. Pretty likely the characters who want magical armor already have some at 6th level. Could get a shield...
And a wand of less than 1200 is basically wand of a 1st level spell with a caster level of 1. (Because the cost is CL x 750.) Innovative players will find a way to make use of it but hardly OP. (Wizard in my campaign got a wand of disguise self.)
At the tail end of Book 1, the maximum rank of the Silver Ravens goes from 5 to 10. The Party is 4th level at that time.
At the tail end of Book 2, the maximum rank goes from 10 to 15, with the party level around 7th.
As soon as the players do two of the three Regional Quests in Book 3, it increases to a maximum rank of 20. The party will be no more than 8th level at that point.
This means that, assuming the party actually invests time and effort into the Silver Ravens, they will likely have the potion (300 gp or less), armor (1,200 gp or less) and weapon (5,000 gp or less) (or two wands of the same values as below), and a 10K magic item. This is in addition to three to four Bonus Feats, 4 bonus Skill Points, 11,750 gold each, and potentially 36,400 XP divided between the party members.
Also, in Book 3 one of the quests prior to the Regional Quests allows you to try and get Noble Houses to support the Ravens. Four Houses are pro-Kintargo and thus not that hard to get the support of. Getting those four houses to support the Ravens garners the Ravens 600 additional Supporters (or however is needed for the next level of the Rebellion, whichever is the higher value), which on its own would catapult the Ravens from level 1 to level 13, and is likely to push the party through level 15 if they've been trying at all.
So at level 7, they will have that magic weapon or wand, magic armor or wand, and potion, guaranteed, along with three Feats each, three Skill Points each, 3,750 gold each, and 10,800 XP divided among the party.
We had a rather interesting game this time around.... [befriending Tengu, sneaking around, not killing enemies]That's awesome!
Kossrani being punished would make sense... I'd suggest he's imprisoned for a little while and then eventually doghoused by Thrune, which would give the PCs a chance to rescue him and get him on their side, if you wanted. Which is a nice way to show that sometimes keeping enemies alive is a good thing.I don’t think the AP is supposed to assume you dodge the main fights by sneaking around at night and there be no consequences for itBut it does assume that the players may attack at night and says that Kossrani would be asleep if they were to do so.
...if the PCs attack at night, the guards on duty attempt to flee to the barracks to wake Kossrani at the earliest opportunity.And besides, if the players come up with a creative/smart way to avoid a fight, why not allow it to work?
It has been a long time since I read book 1 so I probably shouldn’t have commented on that part
Thinking on it more so few groups seem to make a party that would all succeed in sneaking around that they should be rewarded if they can move around during curfew. I would just be nervous about making it so straight forward from level 1 personally
Not least because whilst there are lines in some encounters about when it is dark there aren’t in all (and darkness is loads more work!). Of course there are bound to be times where doing this is far more dangerous
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The gifts aren't overpowered at all. In fact my party having just gotten those 600 supporters are having having a hard time deciding what to buy with 5k gp. Because it's a single item you lose nearly 3k for a simple +1 weapon unless it's adamantine or you buy say a greater devil slaying arrow. Wands are much easier to pad out that 5k.
We had a rather interesting game this time around.... [befriending Tengu, sneaking around, not killing enemies]That's awesome!
Kossrani being punished would make sense... I'd suggest he's imprisoned for a little while and then eventually doghoused by Thrune, which would give the PCs a chance to rescue him and get him on their side, if you wanted. Which is a nice way to show that sometimes keeping enemies alive is a good thing.I don’t think the AP is supposed to assume you dodge the main fights by sneaking around at night and there be no consequences for itBut it does assume that the players may attack at night and says that Kossrani would be asleep if they were to do so.
...if the PCs attack at night, the guards on duty attempt to flee to the barracks to wake Kossrani at the earliest opportunity.And besides, if the players come up with a creative/smart way to avoid a fight, why not allow it to work?It has been a long time since I read book 1 so I probably shouldn’t have commented on that part
Thinking on it more so few groups seem to make a party that would all succeed in sneaking around that they should be rewarded if they can move around during curfew. I would just be nervous about making it so straight forward from level 1 personally
Not least because whilst there are lines in some encounters about when it is dark there aren’t in all (and darkness is loads more work!). Of course there are bound to be times where doing this is far more dangerous
No worries on chatting about parts you've not seen in a bit - you had time to think about this and consider various flaws. My group actually mostly has Darkvision - everyone but the Halfling (and the future half-elf when my last player can join). When the encounter was wrapping up I was suddenly struck wondering how would a human do stumbling through the dark, probably without a lantern or candle, even while trying to reach the door to the outdoors.
Unfortunately, the map-makers didn't add wall scones or the like for hanging lanterns... seeing there are no windows in the place (likely to keep it as dry as possible), the only light is that which you bring yourself. Unless you have Darkvision of course. ;)
The guards are said to be in the main room, which is where I put the lights. Given that the only other way out is a locked gate, if Crowe and his crew had been able to escape on their own, they'd have to go through those guards. No doubt when a patrol checks on Crowe and his crew, they would bring a lantern with them. But I wish more detail had been given on that.
My group actually was fairly innovative in another way. They said they brought the Fushi sisters along as lookouts. The rules don't actually have anything to say about this and the Sisters don't count as Spies or Saboteurs, but as a basic lookout? I didn't see a problem with that. (They're all level 1 Rogues excepting for Korva who's level 2).
As for stealth checks needing a DC 15 once the curfew is in place? The rules for being out after dark don't deny the chance of an Encounter. The Stealth Check is merely to keep that chance from climbing from 20% per hour to 60% per hour. The primary difference between being out in the day or night is that there is a 75% chance outright that an encounter involves the Dottari or the CCG thugs. If the initial roll is over 75, then the normal encounter chart is used (giving even more chances of Dottari or CCG thugs).
Also, in Book 3 one of the quests prior to the Regional Quests allows you to try and get Noble Houses to support the Ravens. Four Houses are pro-Kintargo and thus not that hard to get the support of. Getting those four houses to support the Ravens garners the Ravens 600 additional Supporters (or however is needed for the next level of the Rebellion, whichever is the higher value), which on its own would catapult the Ravens from level 1 to level 13, and is likely to push the party through level 15 if they've been trying at all.
So at level 7, they will have that magic weapon or wand, magic armor or wand, and potion, guaranteed, along with three Feats each, three Skill Points each, 3,750 gold each, and 10,800 XP divided among the party.
This is turning into a DoD Book 3 discussion but the IHBS thread might be a good place for it anyway since GM's should think about this stuff early on in the the AP.
I agree the Noble House alliances offer a very large boost in Supporters. And I'll grant the AP write-up encourages the idea the pc's should get all the alliances prior to starting the regional alliances, but it's at least possible the Noble family work could be interspersed with the regional work - deferring the boost until later in the book.
I'd also suggest the transition from Book 2 to Book 3 has an awkwardness. The pc's rescue the Aquatic Elves, who join the Rebellion as a bonus team. But when exactly? The elves have learned something Very Bad about the likely source of their problem and should want to go home very quickly to warn their people. Do they try to persuade the pc's to come with them? Or leave and come back later to get the pc's/plead for help? And the pc's have a bunch of loose ends, etc. to deal with in Kintargo. Are they going to want to leave Kintargo right away? Regardless, there should be some urgency all around to go deal with the elves' problems. So there's room to make the Noble alliances take longer/get spread out.
I would also agree the totality of the boons to the pc's is potentially significant when viewed for a Rank 15 Rebellion (or above) - the feats and wands most notably so. My post above was more narrowly focused - the Rank 8 magic items didn't seem that momentous for a 7th level pc. IF the pc's can get to Rank 15 by 7th or 8th level, the accumulation of all the boons could be a good size uptick in ability/power.
But I would add running the Rebellion exposes the pc's to some risk - some events call for them to take actions/suffer consequences. The boons are compensation for pc risks and player effort - the Rebellion also calls for the players do devote some mindshare to the endeavor. Running a turn of the Rebellion at Rank 9 (as an example) is not a trivial affair - there are 4 actions (assuming there is a Strategist) to plan and sequence, teams to manage/recruit/upgrade, Events to react to, etc.
So, on an amusing note, my group is becoming philanthropists.
My fifth player has finally joined the group and has done so in style. He joined just after the group learned about murders in Hell's Kitchen (seeing one of the players lives there I figure they would know about the murders). Unfortunately, their attempt to lure in the culprits failed because the dice gods said "Nope!" and then a roll on my part to see if someone else died (it was Day 3 so a murder was due) came up.
The group started discussing how to get people off the streets and realized the empty Cloven Hoof Society building would make for a great soup kitchen. So they went to the Church of Abadar to see about setting up a soup kitchen, bribed some members of the Church of Asmodeus, and called in their Silver Raven teams to help set up the soup kitchen. They also used Knowledge Local to know which merchants were in the area and could use more business or had goods that needed to go quickly.
While the soup kitchen won't have a huge draw that first night, it's also immediately after a murder so the culprits won't likely murder right off the bat again. I'm going to give the PCs a bonus in luring out the culprit, and an added extra 1d6 for the first week or two for gaining new supporters, seeing they are going out of their way to help the community.
Brazillai and crew probably won't notice immediately what happened - I suspect the Cloven Hoof Society was just shut down because the owner vanished and the guard could just loot it at move on, rather than for a specific purpose. They probably will eventually try to shut down the soup kitchen by declaring the building unsafe, but that won't be for several weeks or even months in-game.
Okay, things with my game just took a truly odd twist. To be honest, I'm not quite sure how to react to this. You see, the group put Blosodriette's still-unidentified Contract in a Safety Deposit Box in the Temple of Abadar.
First let's give some backstory here. A fifth player (someone who has a truly inquisitive mind and has already done some truly amusing things to put the game on its ear) joined my group a couple games back. First, Jack helped the group open up a soup kitchen at the location of the empty Cloven Hoof Society building. While doing that, he got himself a safety deposit box at the Abadar temple and I didn't blink an eye at that as they've been in existence for over 150 years and honestly, I could see something like that happening in Golarion. (Not to mention we have the First Vault, so the concept does exist in-game.)
Jack then took time to go through the party's treasures, including unidentified magic items. Seriously, they didn't bother casting Detect Magic on anything they had found, and even though they knew the boots they'd gotten off of one body were magical (as one was retrieved from the belly of a sewer gator without signs of wear) they never bothered trying to identify anything. (Rexus helped with this task as he was feeling rather useless, seeing he's just busy deciphering old documents.) So they realized after a couple days (and the purchase of an actual Identify scroll for use on the Silver Raven) that they had four magic scrolls, a cloak of elvenkind, daredevil boots, and a Silver Raven Wondrous Figurine (I limited them to finding one Silver Raven as I want to make finding each Raven into its own adventure).
Detect Magic only determines there is a faint magical aura on the paper. Being unable to figure out if it was important or not, Jack decided to keep the document in his safety deposit box to keep it secure. (I actually hadn't done anything yet with that storyline - the group didn't go on any official adventures in the first two weeks. Then while they group was busy with the Salt Works and were hiding out for the night at the Devil's Nursery, I figured the timing was perfect to finding out about the murders by the tooth fairies.
I have started part of that encounter sequence though - when Jack was leaving with Blosodriette's contract, the wall collapsed... on him. He made his Reflex save and only took half of 4d6 damage. The group quickly figured out it was sabotage and are now suspecting their teams might have someone working against them, or that this was something done by the Dire Corby before she got herself killed.
As for what to do next... I'm not sure, to be honest. First, the group didn't take up residence in the Wasp's Nest, outside of Rexus. While the Fushi sisters are still staying in the Wasp's Nest and a team of Street Performers has started gathering at the Wasp's Nest to discuss rumors and the like, it's been basically dead. Blosodriette probably feels quite bored and disinterested. These "rebels" aren't doing anything serious outside of trying to learn about the old Silver Ravens. It's only been in the last couple of days in-game that things got more exciting with Blosodriette learning about the planned raid on the Salt Works and Jack showing up to kick things into overdrive.
And then she got moved. She has no intelligence left - only that there's a guy calling himself Jack who dons various disguises who actually seems to be able to think, some woman who wears a mask all the time so she can't identify her, a half-orc Scald and her drinking partner who act like the whole thing is a wonderful diversion, and a crazy halfling who calls himself "king under the mountain." Really, the only two who would be a significant concern are Jack and the masked woman.
She also knows about the Wasp's Nest and its location, and that the group may have a second hideout that this crazy King offered the group.
And I have to wonder... how much would Blosodriette truly care at this point? She is in a temple to a LN God. It's far more active here with lots of people moving back and forth. While she's kind of stuck there, it's far less boring than other places where she'd been. (And she no doubt has to worry about being detected. There are multiple priests there.)
(On the plus side, Blosodriette was quite lucky. Jimmy decided after the collapse to use his Detect Evil ability. He failed to find anything as she was in a different area. Jack was also planning on using his Inquisitorial ability to detect evil once he had a second level in Inquisitor, and was going to be far more active in seeing out evil to make sure no one in the group is possessed or a shapeshifting spy. So she kind of escaped detection here by pure happenstance.)
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Blosodriette
So, I had an experience that was a little similar that might provide inspiration. campaign journal link.
So my question is; assuming that these clerics of Abadar are attentive, cautious, and competent characters with access to detect evil and invisibility purge, what will they do when they discover an Imp trapped in their Vault? Will they kill it or interrogate it? Will they consider killing the Imp destroying property that was entrusted to them?
If they interrogate it and learn of the ravens, how do you want them to react to this in your story? Imagine a contingent of Abadar clerics making a very public return of the lockbox to the Ravens, declaring that they operate a Vault, not a prison.
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BlosodrietteSo, I had an experience that was a little similar that might provide inspiration. campaign journal link.
So my question is; assuming that these clerics of Abadar are attentive, cautious, and competent characters with access to detect evil and invisibility purge, what will they do when they discover an Imp trapped in their Vault? Will they kill it or interrogate it? Will they consider killing the Imp destroying property that was entrusted to them?
If they interrogate it and learn of the ravens, how do you want them to react to this in your story? Imagine a contingent of Abadar clerics making a very public return of the lockbox to the Ravens, declaring that they operate a Vault, not a prison.
I actually read up on your situation with Blosodriette during a Search for her name to see what other folk did. It's interesting... but sadly she's at the Temple of Abadar so... even so, I like the concept of having this early hint of the Soul Anchor and its potential impact.
Given the Imp is Lawful Evil (even if her behaviors are... stretching the line of Lawful), she could easily fit in at the Temple. She could even start whispering in the ear of various clerics working on contracts. But... I'm not sure.
One thing I did do was contact a player from my other (Reign of Winter) campaign as he's got a good head on the rules and also can do the Lawful Evil mindset. (He's the one who pointed out Bloso is a bit... more akin to Chaotic Evil than Lawful Evil from her basic write-up.) I'm tempted to have him "run" Bloso and decide what she's going to do, especially as much of this will be from behind the scenes for a while :)
That said? The safety deposit box isn't the property of the Silver Ravens but rather of one man who has then used their services to help establish a soup kitchen in the Devil's Nursery. They would be more likely to approach Jack quietly concerning this issue. :)
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Getting an unaffiliated player to run an enemy NPC is a great idea. I've done that before myself. And your consultant/recruit is right - Bloso's tactics are self-defeating. Dropping walls on Silver Ravens and manipulating team members seems highly likely to provoke a confrontation with the very people who run the place/defeated the lemures, etc. And that seems very likely to lead to her death or her return to Hell, both of which should be low on her list.
One of the troubles with extrapolating Bloso's actions outside the scope of encounters in the AP is that her encounter structure is built on the assumption the pc's have very low spell power. So the assumption is that the nature of the contract (secret page, etc.) is lost on them and they don't have the ability to do much about it themselves. (And even that is a stretch - given where the pc's find the contract and the other items in the same location, at least one of the pc's is likely scanning the entire haul with detect magic and if so the GM is deliberately obfuscating things if he doesn't divulge the faint magic from the secret page. The GM is assisted in this "deception" by the AP itself which does not mention the contract when describing the treasure in A7, only introducing it later in an "oh by the way" fashion.)
But this limitation doesn't apply to the Temple of Abadar. I might argue the priests of Abadar should have some pretty stringent examination rules for things being stored in their vault. Given the tremendous variation in awful things in small packages in a magic world like Golarion, everything going into the vault should have fully explained magical aura's or be rejected for placement. "This piece of paper has a faint magic aura - please explain." "Oh you don't know what it is either? We can't accept that. Would you like me to dispel it for 210gp?" (CL 7 x 3rd x 10gp) "Rather, attempt to dispel it for 210gp?"
I don't know that I ever read an explanation for why she doesn't suggest Morgar simply steal the contract and bring it to her? Then she could leave and go do whatever she wants. Or why she spent 70 years stuck in a dank basement with her contract in a locked crate? Okay she doesn't have disable device nor the ability to do more damage than its hardness... But come on, she had 70 years to find a solution. Including getting the lemures to carry it to the ground floor where she could manipulate some passerby into breaking it open for her. She should definitely start searching for a morally weak priest of Abadar who can be seduced to the dark side.
She is probably not allowed to actually touch her own contract. She might not be allowed to have someone else who's not a Sarini carry her contract around for her. I mean, let's face it - she has hands. She knew where it was located. She could have opened the crate, summoned a rat, and had it carry the contract for her... if there wasn't something in the contract that prevented that.
You know, I like your thoughts about the Temple of Abadar and their ruling on the contract. That said, the player already has it in his safety deposit box so I'm not sure how I'd go about and do that... I might ask the player privately about this and do a private roleplaying session on the Contract.
I've been thinking about patrols in Kintargo and the Devil's Nursery.
It doesn't make sense for guards to be patrolling the Devil's Nursery, at least not at first. First, this is the slums we're talking about. The guards are going to be more concerned with richer parts of Kintargo, while the Militia will be probably marching around loudly closer to their homes (and few of them would live in the Devil's Nursery). Also, you have to consider: Barzillai wants the Tieflings to rise up so he can raze the slums. That's the whole point why
Once the situation in the slums is taken care of? Then sure, I could see him starting to send the guard into the slums more, especially with the increased popularity of the Silver Ravens (who hopefully deal with the problem). But even then, that's going to happen closer to the end of Book 2. The only reason the dottari would bother going into the slums at night is if there was something flashy happening down there.
So once the heroes get into the Nursery (unless they're being pursued), I'm going to have encounters be less guard-related and more generic.
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I had the random encounter guards in the Devil's Nursery be aggressive guards that were looking to cause problems for the tieflings.
Honestly, due to lack of time at the table, I simply narrated patrol encounters after the first one.
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Warped Savant has the right of it. The Gardens definitely has a show of police, their job is probably more to keep the "wrong sort of people" out of the quarter. The Kintargan guard assigned to the Devil's Nursery has a different sort of assignment - make certain the tiefling populace knows their place. It's not quite a pogrom, but the fact that an underclass is relegated to a poor section of the city does suggest that the powers that be want the tieflings in one place and to have as little power as possible to preserve the status quo.
Of course, that status quo is the sort the Ravens are here to fight, so who else are the tieflings going to turn to when their own are dying, and nobody cares?
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It's not quite a pogrom
It certainly isn't a pogrom in any sense. A pogrom always features popular, mob violence by the majority population against the minority, and may or may not be instigated by government provocateurs.
but the fact that an underclass is relegated to a poor section of the city does suggest that the powers that be want the tieflings in one place and to have as little power as possible to preserve the status quo.
This is called "ghettoization."
Of course, that status quo is the sort the Ravens are here to fight, so who else are the tieflings going to turn to when their own are dying, and nobody cares?
This is a good question, and deserves a serious answer so that the whole population isn't reduced to ripe fruit that falls into the SRs' hands by default (which seems to be the route the AP goes with). Tiefling politics prior to the Night of Ashes was marked by nationalism, so it stands to reason that there would have been an assimilationist current too (there isn't a Bundist current, and it's probably too optimistic to imagine the SRs filling that role. Ah well.). To what faction of public life in Kintargo would it attach itself, remora-like? I would guess the Church of Asmodeus. The latter, of course, is far more invested in its alliance with the government, but it can spare a few crumbs every now and again, and clientelist communal politicians might very well be satisfied with that.
Well, let's consider what was stated in the Tooth Fairy encounter. This entire situation was crafted to drive the Tieflings into a state of rising up and protesting the government. At that point, Barzillai would have sent in the troops to shut them down. It states outright that Thrune will "raze the slums." No doubt it would be widescale use of lethal force against the Tieflings, probably enslaving the survivors, and then probably leaving the slums a burnt-out mess to remind the rest of Kintargo that you don't screw with Barzillai. (He may even have plans to "gentrify" the slums but I'm not sure if Thrune actually is planning that far ahead - his long-term plan is to "rule" all of Cheliax (in his own way).
After the Tieflings are saved from the Tooth Fairies, it will probably take a couple weeks before Barzillai realizes. It may very well be this that first gets the "Silver Ravens" noticed by him and he may very well initially think that someone just got lucky against the fey and the Tieflings just assigned their heroes as an ambiguous "folk hero" group that no longer exists. It's not until Nox runs into them that he realizes they're an active group rather than an urban myth and at that point his plans to continue his ultimate goal to become a Genius Loci are in motion and dealing with a "minor annoyance" of the Ravens is not as important.
After Barzillai finishes with that goal, he starts focusing more on discrediting the Silver Ravens. Thus the Tiefling Slums are once more not important.
So really, the primary obstacle the PCs will face in the future with the slums is small local threats - overzealous guards who figure no one will stand up for tieflings so they go in there to beat up a few, or a minor member of the clergy who snatches a couple tieflings for "use" with some plot or another. And if the PCs have kept a presence in the Nursery (and a wise GM would work to ensure there's reason for the PCs to not just forget about the slums), then they will be on hand to protect the tieflings... and that would definitely unify them behind the Ravens, the one group who actually showed concern for them.
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So really, the primary obstacle the PCs will face in the future with the slums is small local threats - overzealous guards who figure no one will stand up for tieflings so they go in there to beat up a few, or a minor member of the clergy who snatches a couple tieflings for "use" with some plot or another. And if the PCs have kept a presence in the Nursery (and a wise GM would work to ensure there's reason for the PCs to not just forget about the slums), then they will be on hand to protect the tieflings... and that would definitely unify them behind the Ravens, the one group who actually showed concern for them.
My objection is precisely to treating "the tieflings" as a monolithic bloc the way you're doing. The SRs, whatever else they are, are political newcomers. They are not plugged in to the any of the competing preexisting patronage/clientelist/machine networks that would naturally dominate a community like Devil's Nursery. And whatever headway they make will be made by competing against those networks and their loyalists. Even the decapitated Cloven Hoof Society will have loyalists who will insist on organizing separately from the outsider (and likely not majority-tiefling) SRs.
Nothing unifies a people faster than an antagonist who is out to get them.
For several weeks following the Night of Ashes, murders started happening every one to three days. When various tieflings talked to the guard, they were brushed off. No one cared. And then? Then these four or so strangers, most likely not tieflings, showed up. They started asking questions. They went and investigated one of the bodies. They even got in good with Zea, one of the tieflings who stepped up when the head of the Cloven Hoof Society went missing (and given she and her belongings were taken, you know that it's likely either the Church or the Guards were involved and the other tieflings just remained quiet and in hiding during the incident).
And then? These "Silver Ravens" (a name the eldest of the Tieflings undoubtedly remembers though they've not heard of them in decades) kill the murderers. They may have even brought the tiefling child out to have a proper burial. They showed kindness and respect (probably, hopefully?) to the tiefling community. It wasn't the dottari. It wasn't the Militia. It wasn't the Church of Asmodeus. No. It was these "Silver Ravens."
For three weeks afterward a handful of tieflings joins the general support group. And who knows, it may very well be that there are tieflings recruited into the Silver Ravens themselves - you could have a team of Sneaks or Outlaws. It could even be just one or two tieflings working in a team. And while they keep quiet on what they do, they likely encourage folk to speak well of the Silver Ravens. They don't just get forgotten afterward.
Also note that the head of the Church of Milani is a Tiefling and ends up a supporter of the Silver Ravens. You have to bet he's going to encourage his fellow tieflings to support the Silver Ravens.
There is one final selfish reason for the tieflings to unite behind the Silver Ravens. Right now, the current regime is dismissive to hostile toward the tiefling community. Barzillai was all for razing the slums. He saw nothing wrong with the murder of tieflings. There may be a few loyalists among the tieflings who hope by siding with Thrune they'll get a few extra crumbs... but most tieflings are going to know that Thrune cannot be trusted. But if they help the Silver Ravens... maybe the new regime will be more sympathetic and helpful for their plight.
Of course, in my game you also had the group bribe a few officials, acquire the former Cloven Hoof Society building, and open a soup kitchen and hostel. They did it deliberately to get tieflings off the streets at night (including the homeless) but they are keeping up on the soup kitchen even after having killed off the tooth fairies. (In fact, by doing that, I rewarded them by adding an additional 1d6 supporters from the Devil's Nursery for two weeks.) Though it likely helps that one of the characters lives in the Nursery and is a crazy halfling who calls himself "King Under the Mountain" so the tieflings already have a soft spot for him. That he's helping these "Ravens" is going to be noted by them.
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Nothing unifies a people faster than an antagonist who is out to get them.
You'd think so. And then you remember that Communists, Bundists, Zionists, and collaborators (but I shouldn't be redundant) were killing each other in Warsaw right up until 18 April 1943.
Will there be a positive reaction to the SRs' intervention in Devil's Nursery? Of course. It's mechanically defined: 3d6 supporters over three weeks, more than any other single mission in In Hell's Bright Shadow. Will it be universal, with no holdout loyalties, backlash or resentment? Of course not.
Take the example you gave of the SRs taking ownership of and operating the Cloven Hoof Society. That ought to rankle at least some of the members! "We paid into that building for years, scrimping our meager wages to create something we could all benefit from, and that we owned. These outsiders come in, do a dirty deal with the government so they could take away our property without even asking or paying us back, start doling put charity, and expect us to be grateful? Screw 'em!"
Her player hasn't decided 100% on her class yet, but he knows he's going to dedicate a lot to the Disguise skill.V I G I L A N T E
I cannot second this nearly enough.
And that sounds amazing...
Of course, that status quo is the sort the Ravens are here to fight, so who else are the tieflings going to turn to when their own are dying, and nobody cares?This is a good question, and deserves a serious answer so that the whole population isn't reduced to ripe fruit that falls into the SRs' hands by default (which seems to be the route the AP goes with). Tiefling politics prior to the Night of Ashes was marked by nationalism, so it stands to reason that there would have been an assimilationist current too (there isn't a Bundist current, and it's probably too optimistic to imagine the SRs filling that role. Ah well.). To what faction of public life in Kintargo would it attach itself, remora-like? I would guess the Church of Asmodeus. The latter, of course, is far more invested in its alliance with the government, but it can spare a few crumbs every now and again, and clientelist communal politicians might very well be satisfied with that.
Yup, roleplayed this out with a visiting Asmodean evangelist brought in precisely to nip the SR efforts in the bud during book 2. I did a debate between this guy and the party tiefling from Red Roof using this system. Here's the stat block.
Mentallo Crassus
ASMODEAN EVANGELIST Human cleric of Asmodeus 7
LE Medium humanoid (human) Init –1; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 9, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, –1 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 56 each (7d8+21)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +9 Resist fire 10
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
+1 heavy mace +8 (1d8+2) Produce Flame: +4 (1d6+5)
channel negative energy 5/day (Will 15, 30’ exclude 2 targets, 4d6)
Cleric Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +11)
7/day—fire bolt (1d6+3 fire, 30’ range), Hell’s Corruption (touch, -2 saves, roll d20s twice and take worst, 3 rounds)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +11)
4th—absolution (1 round, no save, exultant relief at forgiveness), order’s wrathD (3D grid of energy, Will 18 half negates daze, 30’ cube, 3d8 or 7d6, half that for neutrals, none for lawful), sending
3rd—agonizing rebuke (Will 17, 7 rounds, 2d6 nonlethal/attempt to harm you), cure serious wounds, dispel magic (d20+7 vs. 11+SL), suggestionD (Will 17, 40’ range, -1 or -2 for very reasonable suggestions, 7 hours or until task completed)
2nd—cure moderate wounds (2), hold person (Will 16, 170’), produce flameD (7 min or 7 attacks, melee/ranged 120’, 1d6+5), shield other (within 40’, 7 hours, subject gets +1 deflection AC, +1 resistance saves)
1st—burning handsD (Reflex 15, 5d4 fire), command (Will15, approach, drop, fall, flee, halt), cure light wounds (3), sanctuary (Will 15, 7 rounds, touch, area effect spells work)
0 (at will)—bleed (DC 14), detect magic, guidance, light
D Domain spell; Domains Fire, Devil
TACTICS
Before Combat The evangelist will attempt to resolve disputes through words. If the PCs attempt to intimidate him, he'll approach and in a low voice to just them say: "There’s a lot of innocent people here, mage. If you and I square off, a lot of innocents will be hurt. I would guess that you don’t want that to happen. Let’s debate and let the crowd be educated on the issues of the day."
During Combat: He will focus on channeling energy or using their attack spells. They switch to melee only when forced, or when doing so would prevent a foe from engaging a superior in melee. But if reduced to 10 or fewer hit points, he casts sanctuary and then moves to support allies with healing rather than continue direct combat.
STATISTICS: Str 10, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 15
Feats Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Selective Channeling, Toughness, Weapon Focus (mace)
Skills Intimidate +9, Knowledge: religion +11, Linguistics +11, Sense Motive +14
Languages Common
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (3), potion of cure serious wounds (2);
Other Gear +1 chainmail, +1 light steel shield, silver holy symbol of Asmodeus, 20 gp, 6sp, 7cp
Determination: 15
Assess audience: 10 minutes, Sense Motive +14
• Find out what -5 to -2 to +2 to +5 on particular tactics
• In this case: Flattery and Praise +5, Entertainment +2, Logic -2, Baiting -5
1. Initiative: Charisma check (+2)
2. Person who wins initiative wagers up to level in Determination, chooses tactic, rolls first
3. Successful counter means no damage
4. Winner gets to have initiative, can up the ante up to level
5. Repeat until initiative winner wins challenge and does determination damage
Audience attitude:
• +5 to Flattery/praise, +2 Entertainment, -2 Logic, -5 Presence
• -2 Sense Motive checks vs. Bluffs (obedient)
• +2 Intimidate to make friendly (cowed by violence)
• +2 Diplomacy to influence govt. officials (lawful)
• -4 Diplomacy to alter attitude of citizens (suspicious)
Allegory and Parable: K: religion +11
-2 when used to counter another tactic
• Allegory/parable: **Children need discipline to thrive:** regular eating times, regular reading, regular exercise, regular sleeping times. Failure to do that leads to unhappy, spoiled, and awful children. Discipline is in our nature, we need it to thrive. For your soul to thrive, you need discipline.
Baiting (setting a trap): Intimidate +9
All but Presence are -2 when countering this tactic
• Baiting: **And the kids these days?** They have no idea how we suffered to keep this nation whole. We ended the civil war that pit brother against brother, divided the empire, and brought anarchy to the job markets. Do you want that again? Your support can prevent it.
• Baiting: **The Silver Ravens? Anything goes with them.** Poetry. Graffiti. Riots. And do you really know who they are? Do you really know who’s backing them?
Emotional Appeal: Sense Motive +14
+ 2 to counter logic, presence, rhetoric
• Emotional appeal: Church of Asmodeus well known for its **high-quality orphanages**, taking care of children orphaned by war, disease, and poverty.
Entertainment: +2 untrained perform
Flattery and Praise: charisma +2
+2 to counter presence, -2 vs. mockery
• Flattery and praise: Ordinary people think you are cursed or evil. We know **you are special, blessed.** We ask that you embrace your fiendish heritage through our worship. **If you have demonic heritage, we can cure it** through a special ritual so that you will give your children a fresh start.
• Flattery and Praise: Asmodeus believes in a **meritocracy**: the strong should rule over the weak as their worth is proven in their actions. You are strong—look at all you’ve survived. Be stronger with us.
Logic: Linguistics +11
-2 to counter baiting, emotional appeal, mockery
• Logic: **He brings law and order**: civilization requires rules and for people to be bound to do what they promise; contracts ensure that.
• Logic: Asmodeus believes in **consent: negotiation and agreement** are at the center of his dogma
Mockery and Wit: Intimidate +9
-2 to counter logic
• **Mockery:** The Glorious Reclamation will tell you what’s good for you, what’s right for you, and what’s proper for you to do every day of your life and for all eternity. All of which is in addition to their laws. All they ask is that you beg for mercy, humble yourself, and give your hard-earned coin to the lazy rotters lying in the street. **The Church of Asmodeus lets you decide what’s good for you** within the rules that allow for a meritocracy that allows Cheliax to thrive. You never have to beg or give to society’s leeches. You just have to keep your eyes on the prize and play the game to win at life.
Presence: Intimidate +9
+2 to counter mockery and logic
-2 vs. allegory, baiting, and emotional appeal
• Presence: **Unrestrained free will leads to chaos, anarchy, civil war**: Galt and Pezzack, for example. Need to have discipline, order, hierarchy in order for civilization to thrive.
• Presence: The problems right now are due to the Silver Ravens, who are kids and wreckers that are little more than barbarians. We work with the lawful civil authority to temper House Thrune’s attempts to bring Kintargo back under lawful control. **Join us to work within the system** for the changes you want.
Rhetoric: Linguistics +11
Never a negative bias against this tactic
• Rhetoric: **All you have to do is come to church and listen** to what we have to say. You don’t have to join the church to attend, pray, and seek our guidance. What kind of risks do the Silver Ravens want you to take on?
Mirror Tactic: -2 for duplicating opponent’s tactic in countering
Repetition: -2 cumulative each time you win an exchange using the same tactic in a row
Her player hasn't decided 100% on her class yet, but he knows he's going to dedicate a lot to the Disguise skill.V I G I L A N T E
Thirded. If she prefers playing a caster, the Magical Child archetype works pretty well in this kind of campaign, despite some obvious design flaws. The early access to improved familiars and a spell list with lots of pit spells make them very good through at least level 9, which is as far as I've gotten.