Path of War doesn't make martials dangerous as much as just giving them twice as many feats and abilities, force them to memorize a spellbook, and basically give them a lot of ways to trivially heal anything or become immune to all spells.
But that's not a debate worth having here; when recruitment starts, we'll see the GM's opinion on all that stuff. He may want to handle all non-core customization-type stuff through the system he's clearly spent time working on.
I admit, I'm not hugely familiar with the Paths of War stuff, but I was under the impression it just made martials dangerous - it didn't make them Wizard level good.
No. No it doesn't I've yet to find the PoW character able to do anything I can do with a cleric or wizard.
In any case we'll wait and see. With the madness that are these rules I wouldn't be too upset if he stuck strictly to a select few books. Never mind 3pp or the full paizo library.
I admit, I'm not hugely familiar with the Paths of War stuff, but I was under the impression it just made martials dangerous - it didn't make them Wizard level good.No. No it doesn't I've yet to find the PoW character able to do anything I can do with a cleric or wizard.
Silver Crane maneuvers let you heal better than a cleric, and the PoW2 playtest has a bunch of ways for martials to get extra strong channeling (as well as a few really easy infinite-attack/infinite-healing combos).
Bladecaster turns wizards into unholy death-cannons with full BAB, full martial strikes, fast healing, caster level higher than character level, and the best counterspell ability I've ever seen.
Mage Hunter gives you all of the features of a level 20 magus in 10 levels, while also producing a constant effective antimagic field on all enemies.
This isn't really the place for a debate.
Yeah... sorry.
Didn't mean to start an argument, honestly.
It's just, in a game with triple gestalt and 30 point guy, do we really need any more power than what we can get in Paizo?
The fact remains that we don't even know if the idea is being entertained or not. I, for one, am always up for as many options as I can get with a character.
Even if 3pp is disallowed the power potential for this game is still ludicrous. Path of War would be a drop in the bucket in that regard. It'll fall on us to police ourselves.
Didn't mean to start an argument, honestly.
It's just, in a game with triple gestalt and 30 point guy, do we really need any more power than what we can get in Paizo?
It's not necessarily power. It's also flexibility and the ability to find a concept you really like. I've played in a lot of games since 3.0 came out, and it's hard to get excited about the same classes that I've played for a decade and half. More options is more possibilities.
Also, you don't need to play a 3pp character even in a game where it's allowed. With the powers we're getting, everybody should be pretty awesome.
Well, I'm against trying to supercharge roles in Gestalt or Tristalt.
e.g. focus on a single aspect and power it up to 9000. Something like that may be fun for a one-shot, but it utterly defeats the purpose of gestalt. So, yeah, you hit on everything but a 1 and do a gazillion damage per hit. Grats, you broke the normal game and the GM now needs to pull out the hard counters to your trick.
Hmmm... I think I'll go back to the drawing board.
Didn't mean to start an argument, honestly.
It's just, in a game with triple gestalt and 30 point guy, do we really need any more power than what we can get in Paizo?
No argument, really. But honestly...no, we don't need any more power than Paizo, because we have the wizard. I honestly haven't seen anything that can equal a well played, well thought out and well equipped wizard. What non-Paizo stuff does is allow more options. Like Rogue Genius Games Dragonrider - it is, if anything, a bit underpowered. But it lets you ride a Dragon from level one, and it doesn't overshadow every other person with a pet of some kind like a Dragon-themed Summoner would.
I'm almost definitely going to go with Telekineticist for one of the three classes. Undecided for the other two.
I was actually considering Warmaster for my Angel of War, but its not a must have.
No argument, really. But honestly...no, we don't need any more power than Paizo, because we have the wizard. I honestly haven't seen anything that can equal a well played, well thought out and well equipped wizard. What non-Paizo stuff does is allow more options. Like Rogue Genius Games Dragonrider - it is, if anything, a bit underpowered. But it lets you ride a Dragon from level one, and it doesn't overshadow every other person with a pet of some kind like a Dragon-themed Summoner would.
That's... a bit silly now. A good wizard can prepare for any situation... once per day, but they really don't deserve the rep of "makes all other classes obsolete" that they seem to have.
-A summoner without his eidolon (and only a little specialization) can summon an average of 4.5 evolved celestial smiting pouncing tigers every round, for about 430 damage, while also knowing most of the wizard's best battlefield control spells
-A shadow puppeteer bard can only cast summon monster IV, but he can do it as a swift action, with near infinite uses/day (and even at IV there's some nice spellcasting monsters in there)
-A cleric/veiled illusionist can pull off more versatility and flexibility of spells than even a wizard can, while also having better AC, saves, and HP
-Permanencied Shrink Item makes siege weapons an easy and practical combat tactic
-A double-pistol gunslinger can make 14 attacks/round, and effectively double that with Snap Shot
-A fighter or ranger can afford a ton of spell storing/dispelling arrows which his allies fill up every night with their extra spell slots, allowing him to cast dispel magic or useful touch spells 5x/round
-An arcane bloodrager can survive about 500 points of damage before being knocked unconscious
-A Tetori or Maneuver Master can destroy anything he touches, especially spellcasters
Without derailing much further...
Please no. Do not invoke that dark god here.
I have to say, I've never made a character like this before, but I'm intrigued to see how it works out! I'm thinking about a cross-blooded arcane/destined bloodrager for my first class, with an inquisitor of the Damnation inquisition and then for my third class an oracle of fire.
Feat-Wise he'll be focused on intimidation, using his rage up close and his spells from a distance to create a versatile and terrifying warrior.
In terms of story, I'm thinking that rather than choosing to fall, he will be devoted singlemindedly to serving divine punishment, and when he is deemed too eager in his mission and banished to hell, he will take it in stride and proceed to conquer hell itself to receive his revenge.
If we're going to start banning stuff because it makes Gestalt/Tristalt more powerful, then it's not really third party stuff we need to start with. If the GM wants to because it's a hassle or it doesn't fit then that's an entirely different barrel of goblins, and one I can understand.
As for comparing it to the wizard? A wizard with PoW dips, goodies or PrCs is leagues ahead of an "ordinary" wizard (and this is true for most spellcasters), which was a big part of the point I tried to make earlier.
EDIT: Hmm, though yeah, we should probably just wait a few days until recruitment actually starts, because this is just an interest check and sufficient interest has definitely been established.
Well, no reason we can't chat a little? If nothing else, it's an interesting debate.
And I'm sure there are worse out there.
It's not quite the same. A bladecaster/stalker on one path is basically immune to attacks and spells, without needing to pour two or three classes into achieving the same thing otherwise. The PoW character gets to do many, many more things than any non-PoW character, especially if he's gestalting or tristalting multiple such classes, and leaves the other characters feeling a very strong need to take a PoW dip or class to keep up.
Okay, so I think this is roughly where we're at in terms of concepts. Feel free to correct me if something's missing or looks wrong. XD
Character Concepts
Fallen of Dark Comedy - thunderbeard
Fallen of Destruction - bigrig107
Fallen of Fire - Johnnycat93
Fallen of the Hunt - monkeygod
Fallen of Judgment - Tenro
Fallen of Madness - Bane88
Fallen of Nature - monkeygod
Fallen of Pride - Browman
Fallen of Rage - HighonHolyWater
Fallen of Temptation - Rednal
Fallen of Terror - Dragonflyer1243
Fallen of Trickery - MordredofFairy
Fallen of War - monkeygod
Fallen of ??? - The Benighted Regent
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My 2C on this topic: PoW classes are solidly tier 3. Probably a bit less powerful than a well built Alchemist, but like the summoner, have a much higher power floor. They are still much less powerful than a summoner though.
As far as power goes, without optimizing very much, a Sorcerer/Oracle/Vivisectionist with a paladin or antipaladin splash is vastly more powerful than anything purely out of DSP (including the Psion). Splashing even more, and that particular character becomes virtually unkillable. Sure, as options increase, so will power slightly, but the real benefit is the versatility of characters you can make.
The DM's are more than free to allow the splat they want, but power isn't a very good reason to argue against 3PP.
Depending on how other recruitment threads go, I would be interested in rolling up a character.
While I will be focusing on torture, Rednal, I think Fallen of Destruction fits more, as he (hopefully) will be good at destroying everything. And will enjoy it, as well.
Hmm. Zombie Lord is a cool template....
I'm probably going to create a character centered around being very very durable, with a few other things mixed in because it is gestalt/tristalt after all.
I'll have to see what kind of abilities are available, but it will likely be something with Invulnerable Rager Barbarian and/or Spelleater Bloodrager. I'm guessing DR #/blah will be pretty available, plus probably fast healing, so I'd need to see what does and doesn't stack.
A fallen of survival, if you will.
I figured it would be easier to scan the list for concepts (and help avoid duplication!) this way. ^^
Incidentally, I plan to stick with just three classes (or maybe even two, depending on how templates are worked in), without dips. I also plan to build for a broad spread of abilities instead of supercharging one thing - part of my Fallen of Temptation's theme would be helping others achieve what they want, and I figure a broad suite of skills would be more in line with that. ^^ So... potent, but not overwhelmingly so.
@Bigrig: Edited. ^^
I think I'm going for 'Fallen of Greed' for the curious. Avaraice has always been my favourite sin.
Also,
I've never been a fan of the tier system—it's basically saying "how much can this character do by themself" (other than actually surviving any sort of attack, which it never seems to take into account). It has nothing to do with how well characters can contribute to a team. For instance, a halfling ki mystic monk can give a whole party constant +4 to AC, and near immunity to melee attacks, critical hits, or spells, providing a huge force multiplier that is constantly useful despite being a "lowest-tier" character.
That said, I can't think of many PoW builds that would fall below Tier 2 in their versatility, while some of the PrCs are absolutely Tier 1 or above in their ability to trivialize combats with no-save save-or-die equivalent abilities.
@Rednal: I think I might have to go in the opposite direction—mostly because there are few classes that strongly fit my theme, and it might be more entertaining to pick and choose abilities for their "comedy value." (for instance, if I can work in Shadow Puppet Bard, I can tell jokes so random they literally cause electric eels to rain from the sky, while Polymorph Any Object and Mad Monkeys could both be hilarious)
Important thing I don't remember seeing fully explained: how should we expect our characters to have been treated as angels?
Like were we higher up 'rank and file' angels that served a god, were we like deity's heralds (heralds are only CR ~15 after all), or separate somewhat as our own minor concepts?
Oooh, so is graveknight!
I'll have to see just how templates work before looking further.
@Rednal- thanks! Sorry to be so picky, but I feel torture just isn't a perfect fit; it's too narrow. He (or she, not sure yet) will enjoy all manners of destruction, not just those inflicted on bodies.
As for actual class design, I want to take wizard all the way up for the caster level for his conjuration (teleport) school power and Dimension Door, and slayer up for full BAB. Could sacrifice a level or two for a template from alchemist, although that second dropped level will hurt the Dimensional sneak attack trick by a d6. Maybe take one level off of wizard, and one off of alchemist?
Hope no one likes Dimensional Anchor in Hell!
I'm thinking maybe Fallen of Aether, but I can't really come up with a whole three classes that fit the theme. Actually, maybe I could be the Fallen of Mind. That'd be cool.
I agree Rednal, I've always thought it was more fun to have a bunch of roles when gestalting.
I've never been a big fan of the Schrodinger's Wizard concept either to be honest. Defense is incredibly important, which is why in gestalt, the double whammy of Paladin 2/Oracle 1 with any Cha based spell caster is so terrifying.
Damage is easy to come by, the reason I like the path of war classes is because they give the mundane fighters something to do besides charge, pounce, dead.
I think our tier list is probably a bit different though. It is true that the PoW classes can be very formidable in combat (among the most powerful), but their lack of utility outside of combat is what makes them no better than tier 3 (at least on my scale). I agree with you that if we ignore utility, they are probably tier 1.5-2.
I still maintain that Synthesist's are almost strictly better than any of the PoW classes :P
Won't make any final decisions until we have the full rules but if we're going along those lines Fallen of Contempt or Fallen of Corruption sound close to what I'm thinking.
Fallen of Judgement sounds good to me.
Now, I could see how some might shake their torches and pitchforks at someone using a PoW class in two or three lines of their tristalt... until I realize that the same character only has so many actions in a round (especially Swift, which are heavily relied upon in PoW) and now that poor person has all kinda of fun tricks in combat and outside of combat is now little more than "1d20+X" (for skills).
For me, I'm planning on using 1 PoW class (if allowed), 1 decent class (like Cleric) and then something low-powered but fun, something I wouldnt normally play because it can't hang with the big wizards on its own.
*Taps chin* Maybe I'll look into being a Pact Magic Occultist/Ritualist... having spiritual allies that could possess mortals (or be brought along to help her) would be interesting. There was also an Occult class that could go well here, along the lines of "souls who fell to temptation and now serve her"... hmm... well, I'll think on it for now.
@Bigrig: No problem. ^^ I'm just trying to keep track of the concepts - you're free to have it called whatever you want. Editing and updating is no trouble, really. XD
Character Concepts
Fallen of Contempt - TarkXT
Fallen of Corruption - TarkXT
Fallen of Dark Comedy - thunderbeard
Fallen of Destruction - bigrig107
Fallen of Fire - Johnnycat93
Fallen of Greed - JonGarrett
Fallen of the Hunt - monkeygod
Fallen of Judgment - Tenro
Fallen of Madness - Bane88
Fallen of Mind - Newbonomicon
Fallen of Nature - monkeygod
Fallen of Pride - Browman
Fallen of Rage - HighonHolyWater
Fallen of Temptation - Rednal
Fallen of Terror - Dragonflyer1243
Fallen of Trickery - MordredofFairy
Fallen of War - monkeygod
Fallen of ??? - The Benighted Regent
Thinking of switching from kyton to daemon.
They fit the "Destruction" theme so much more than kytons, and also love eating souls, which seems to be important to the plot of this game.
I haven't had a reason to explore them yet, but now I do.
Ohhhh no... "charge / pounce / dead" sounds like a barbarian's combat routine (though barbarians have been mostly obsolesced by bloodrager), or a beastmorph alchemist, or an inquisitor, or a magus, or something similar.
A typical melee fighter (or brawler's) routine is more likely to look like
-choose feats or stance + dispelling arrow + dispelling arrow + tanglefoot arrow + silence arrow
-switch weapons + move + great cleave + trip all enemies + AoO all falling enemies + AoO standing enemies + blind an enemy via dirty trick AoO
-disarm + disarm + more blinding + more tripping + stun
-switch weapons
-full attack
A typical archer fighter (or shield champion brawler's) routine is more likely to look like
-ranged disarm all enemies
-ranged trip all enemies
-laugh maniacally
A typical monk's routine is more likely to look like
-choose feats or stance + dispelling shuriken + dispelling shuriken + silence shuriken (or just ambush enemies with stealth)
-great cleave + ki throw + binding ki throw + greater grapple to trip and reposition all enemies while also grappling, pinning, and tying up one enemy, then disarm everyone on AoOs
-use style feats or martial arts strike to cripple/stun a few enemies or reposition yourself, then reposition all enemies
-repeat, while using various powers to protect your allies
A typical ranger's routine is more likely to look like
-win both initiative and stealth
-shoot every single enemy dead in a single round
-okay this one's pretty boring
And @Tenro: My problem with PoW classes is mostly that they get too many abilities, too fast (vs other martials at least) and basically force you to play a spellcaster if you're in a game where PoW is common. And while a magus can do plenty, a PoW Mage Hunter can do everything a Magus can in HALF as many levels.
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Very interested in this game. Sounds like an awesome concept. Not sure on concept yet. Corruption is always nice, but seems taken.
I was thinking a more physical sort of corruption rather than mental though. Withering of body parts and all that. Perhaps to differentiate: "Fallen of Rot"? Perhaps an anti-Druid.
@Bigrig and Thunderbeard: Do you guys have to do this in EVERY Recruitment you participate in? Especially when at least one of you has said they know nothing about Path of War OR Psionics and are merely relying on hearsay about how powerful it is or isn't.
The d12, the rage powers, archetypes, all make the barbarian and the bloodrager different
@Rednal: Thanks for keeping track of all this stuff! My character's theme would probably be more based upon retribution or punishment than terror though.
Here's something that just now occurred to me. How does one go about writing a backstory for a purely celestial being?
A lot of my normal writing relies on the frame of reference of a mortal. Obviously that's something that doesn't translate well here.
Any hints or tips from the audience?
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Hey! *Finger waggles* No balance talk in crazy campaigns! Balance is the GM's job! :P
As far as I know, there is NO subtype changing in the game! You may certainly have the flavor of certain outsider subtypes, but your type is always Outsider (Fallen).
Templates ARE allowed, but all ability score modifications are excised from them. And with templates that stack AC and SR, you only gain the highest of any that you possess.
All 3PP material on the SRD is allowed, as is all Paizo material. He said to ask if it is not on the SRD, as he is hesitant to allow something that he does not have material for. Only one Summoner will be allowed, due to the fact that combat is already brutal enough as it is and all that most summoned creatures will be is fleshy meatbags clogging up the thread, so it is asked that people refrain from going the 'summon a legion' route. With most foes being mythic versions, most summoned creatures only take up space and will not provide any useful aid in combat. Paladins are also banned due to their requirement of LG. Antipaladins, however, are allowed and are not limited to CE. In fact, if I remember correctly, chaotic alignments are banned, due to the PCs starting out after the fall the the Nine Hells.
As an aside for those looking up the names of angels/demons, most of those are going to be represented in the infernal heirarchy of the game, so you may just need to come up with the names. Interestingly enough, almost every angel's name ends with -el, the Babylonian suffix denoting light. That should give you an interesting start, should you go the route of classical naming conventions.
It has been asked: which version of Hell are people more interested in seeing? The D&D version, the Pathfinder version, or the Dice Freaks version? My personal vote is a D&D/Dice Freaks mixup, as it makes Hell a much more Machiavellian place with much more internal power struggles, as opposed to the less-maneuverable Golarion version (Either way makes sense as both serve Asmodeus's purposes). I also like the idea of Mephistopheles switching between cold logic and fiery passion, his form reflecting his current state.
I will do my best to answer the questions that I could see. The GM should be here in the next few hours to post further.
MordredofFairy: He DID have an account a few years ago with around 3,000 posts, I believe, before his graduate program forced him off the messageboards. There was much gnashing of teeth about that one from PCs, despite him being fairly aboveboard about his reasons for having to let his single campaign go. I am not sure if he wants me posting it or not, as I do not know if he wants a clean start or not, so I will leave that up to his discretion.
Bigrig107: Domain spells of the level that you would be able to cast, if you were a Cleric of appropriate level. I do not know how much you can use each one just yet.
TarkXT: Yes, there has been mention of forays to the material plane and beyond, when a particular situation makes it practical or during downtime. From what I can gather, there will be one such foray soon after the first 'adventure'. There is also something that is completely off-the-rails awesome that comes later, but not spoiling that one!
Battlespy: That is up to you to decide. Remember that no treatment from the higher ups in the Heavens is cruel, even though they may definitely by hard to deal with sometimes.
JonGarrett: You should be pleased then, because some of the greed-themed powers I have seen on that list are ridiculous! One is a limited use/day power that works like Flesh to Stone, but turns a foe into SOLID GOLD! Seeing as how gold is not worth much in Hell, it's mostly just for flavor that it is gold and not stone, but I still think that decorating a hellish castle with gilded statues made from your foes is pretty awesome!
Johnnycat93: That's a good question. What perspective are you writing it from?
Rednal: Thanks for the concept lists!
Awesome! Excited to see the actual character creation rules!
And that's my bad, Regent, you're right; "let them all in, and let the GM sort them out!"
Another few quick things:
1. How will templates work, exactly? Will they replace an entire level of gestalt, or just one class?
2. I figured we wouldn't be getting actual subtypes, I was just talking flavor, and ability themes.
3. Don't really have any preference, but the Pathfinder Hell is the one I'm most familiar with, if that matters.
Hm. No one seems to have taken Treachery/Betrayal yet. That seems perfectly tailor made for an infernal campaign (especially if my character fell for betraying a fellow angel).
No clue what the Dice Freaks Hell is like. Or the "D&D Hell" for that matter (which setting?), but there's a wiki for that.
@Rynjin- not sure what you mean by "hearsay", as I've seen how powerful a Harbinger can be (Oneidros form the Rednal module). But it's whatever. I just didn't realize how much I was actually doing it, and annoying people. I'll refrain from doing so until I can actually play some classes in Pow.
I agree in that the DnD/Dicefreaks version would be most interesting. I really liked the old write-ups of Dispater and Mephistopheles.
JonGarrett: You should be pleased then, because some of the greed-themed powers I have seen on that list are ridiculous! One is a limited use/day power that works like Flesh to Stone, but turns a foe into SOLID GOLD! Seeing as how gold is not worth much in Hell, it's mostly just for flavor that it is gold and not stone, but I still think that decorating a hellish castle with gilded statues made from your foes is pretty awesome!
...welp, now my character's Catch Phrase will be 'Gotta Catch 'Em All.' I might have to see about getting Craft Golem as a feat so I can have them guarding the place. Nothing says 'rich' like the golden corpses of your foes fighting for you.
@Rynjin- not sure what you mean by "hearsay", as I've seen how powerful a Harbinger can be (Oneidros form the Rednal module). But it's whatever. I just didn't realize how much I was actually doing it, and annoying people. I'll refrain from doing so until I can actually play some classes in Pow.
This could be your chance to play a PoW class!
They're actually pretty fun. I haven't really delved into the Prestige Classes, but the three main classes might have something that interests you:
- Warder: tough guy, basically a tank in the game sense (agro enemies to you)
- Stalker: kinda like a ninja, but can be played several ways (mundane agile PC that is good with weapons or metaphysical ghostly ninja, likely other ways I havent explored)
- Warlord: good at supporting allies, tactician, in-combat show-off.
or as they list on the PrD:
Stalker: A combination of combatant and stealthy scout, the stalker uses maneuvers that focus on close-quarters combat or thrown weapons, as well as those that channel supernatural energies.
Warder: The protector and strategist, the warder most often uses maneuvers that rely on shields and protecting others.
Warlord: Often fond of big, sweeping attacks, the warlord is a combat leader skilled at landing devastating strikes.
...welp, now my character's Catch Phrase will be 'Gotta Catch 'Em All.' I might have to see about getting Craft Golem as a feat so I can have them guarding the place. Nothing says 'rich' like the golden corpses of your foes fighting for you.
deliciously evil!