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I think people are just too focused on making the Kineticist have the same damage output as a Fast Bombs Alchemist, except able to do it all day long.I've already told you this is wrong, so you can stop saying it now.
Nope, I can say whatever I please. This thread has several ideas with the sole purpose of practically eliminating downside to burn, or ramping up the power of the Kineticist. In various other threads, other people are desiring the same thing.
It seems there's this vocal group of people on the forums who have the intention to spread the misinformation that the Kineticist damage sucks, Burn is a horrible mechanic and that the Kineticist can't compete for a slot in a party with nearly any other class.
This is wrong information. Most of these people seem to use the Barbarian class as the bare minimum of what a DPR class should be. Or they use the Wizard as the bare minimum of utility, or the Bard as the bare minimum skill monkey.
So many people keep comparing the class to the top tier classes and finding them lacking. Reality check, all of the classes are lacking when compared to these classes in their given role.
"Kineticist doesn't have the same utility as a Wizard" Well of course he f+@*ing doesn't. Anyone who thought the Kineticist would have the same utility as a Wizard is a bloody moron. Wizard is a broken as hell class that makes nearly every other class feel impotent.
The Kineticist doesn't bring the utility of a Wizard, but he brings more damage to every fight. He doesn't bring the damage of a Barbarian, but he brings more utility. He's not a skill monkey, but he's got abilities to make many skills easier.
The Kineticist is 1 part skill, 1 part utility, 1 part damage. You are never going to boost one of the aspects of the Kineticist to the same levels of other classes that are sitting in the top tiers.
Get your head out of the DPR Olympics thread so you can see what the class really is.
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Tels I agree with you, some of your statements are personal attacks, and that will likely get your post taken down.
I'm partial to the Kineticist, my only beef so far is that kinetic fist/blade feel like an ability tax to remain versatile. Having watched the pre-gen Kineticist get sidelined in a module because everything was fire resistant / with hardness. In fairness the module has issues, but the player was severely limited. All though he and GomGom owned up the RP scene (ps who brings a kid into a dungeon...)
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The Kineticist does not fill any given role better than any other class could fill it.
He's not a good jack of all trades. The Bard is better at skills, utility, AND damage. So is the Inquisitor and Alchemist and Investigator.
It's not "He can't out DPR the barbarian" or "He can't out utility the Wizard" or "He can't out-skill the Bard", it's that he both can't do any ONE thing better than any other class, nor can he do several things passably better than a lot of other classes could do it.
Hell, even from the same book, the Medium out-does him at everything except being flavored to shoot fire out of his hands. The Medium is an excellent jack of all trades class.
I figured that was pretty f&+!ing clear when I said my comparison point was the Inquisitor on at least one occasion, but seeing that would require you to actually pay attention and read a post before replying.
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The Inquisitor is one of the most powerful classes in the game, with high skill points, accuracy and damage boosts in the form of judgements, and 6 level spell casting the Inquisitor is such a one-man band that comparing the Kineticist to the Inquisitor is ridonculous.
Archer Inquisitor breaks the game, I've played with an Archer Inquisitor. I know precisely what it does to encounters, and what it does to a pre-published Adventure Path. We played Legacy of Fire with a Paladin, Archer Inquisitor, Summoner and Bard. You could not pick a more broken, DPR focused party. The character doing the most damage was of course the Archer Inquisitor, because
A) Archery is THE most powerful combat choice in the game, bar none. It has low entry requirements, gives extra attacks, and there is no disincentive to full attack every round.
B) The Inquisitor has so many options that he can point at dealing damage, that even the Paladin struggled to keep up against evil foes.
The GM was forced to buff encounters to routinely be APL+2, just account for the Inquisitor's crazy damage potential. This was back when we were only using the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic for our builds.
I don't want the kineticist to be routinely matching an Archer Inquisitor in damage. A kineticist shouldn't be breaking the assumed Challenge Rating system, just because people have decided game breaking damage should be the baseline.
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If you think "deals good damage" is anywhere near "game breaking", our metric are so far apart we might as well not even discuss it further.
Regardless of which, the Kineticist fares just as poorly in comparison with any other 6 level caster. Given that they all hit roughly the same note on power and versatility, it's clear that Paizo at least doesn't see a problem with their power level.
Maybe he doesn't need to match an Inquisitor or Warpriest. Fine, they're fairly combat heavy classes (...even though the Kineticist is a combat heavy class too by its abilities, since its utility is very low, and most of hat it can do is combat oriented).
Should still be able to match a Bard. Doesn't come anywhere close in the skill department, nor in general utility, so it should at least exceed the Bard by a fair margin. I'm not confident that it would outdo an archer Bard, or at least not by a significant enough margin to justify the decreased versatility.
Because like it or not, the damage you call "game breaking" is routinely achieved or exceeded by EVERY COMBAT CLASS. Just like the "Extra Rage Power" style Feats, this isn't a genie Paizo can shove back in the bottle now. They've released something like 30 classes before Occult Adventures, and all of the combat classes among those (a solid half, or more) can achieve the damage you call "game breaking".
Anything released after that which does not is therefore below the par that THEY SET.
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I dunno, Paizo have been nerfing a lot of their releases lately, the Unchained Summoner isn't as crazy as regular summoner, and the boards have been crying about nerfs for a while.
Perhaps, they are trying to put that genie back in the bottle.
In any case, I'm not sure how many APs you've played through, but you really don't need the crazypants level of damage Archery builds (of like, any class) can achieve to finish them.
The kineticist's damage, without really trying that hard is good, their utility for creative players is great, and their skills aren't the best but they make up for that with mobility, and utility options within every one of their elemental specializations.
The only kineticist builds I've been unhappy with are Overwhelming Souls, because they don't get enough in return for losing access to the sweet goodies taking burn provides.
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Paizo could just keep continuing to nerd things until the kineticist looks good. It's why the Scarred Witch Doctor is lacking it's awesome now, so why not get the rest of the classes too?
As far as combat goes, I don't think it's all that bad. ESPECIALLY water and earth mixed together. For sheer defense, no other elements will do(not that flame ever had a chance, clearly. Poor, mistreated element...)
And burn is terrible. Even with all the ways you can avoid it or even use it to your advantage, taking more no lethal damage just because you leveled up(and it's not even per kineticist levels!) is bad. People level up to get better at something, not worse. And the best way to mitigate burn, Gather Power, is severely limited at well. The only reason anyone can say that's a good thing is Kinetic Healer. There are easier ways to heal than bruising everyone.
Now if the other ranged attacks were limited to once per round attacks, with options to reduce "strain"(non lethal damage taken to use things like Deadly Aim, etc) there'd be outcry about that too.
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And burn is terrible. Even with all the ways you can avoid it or even use it to your advantage, taking more no lethal damage just because you leveled up(and it's not even per kineticist levels!) is bad. People level up to get better at something, not worse. And the best way to mitigate burn, Gather Power, is severely limited at well. The only reason anyone can say that's a good thing is Kinetic Healer. There are easier ways to heal than bruising everyone.
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Please stop saying kineticists get worse at taking burn. I've already shown why this is not true.
I understand the percentages. That does not stop you from taking more burn the better you get at anything. Your hit points don't stop you from taking more burn, do they? No.
You get worse because you take more nonlethal damage because you gain a level.
I understand the percentages. That does not stop you from taking more burn the better you get at anything. Your hit points don't stop you from taking more burn, do they? No.
You get worse because you take more nonlethal damage because you gain a level.
Yep, you take more damage from burn the higher you get. While the percentage is the same it sure FEELS worse and there is no way to spin it that you get better at taking burn as you level.
Because he used the three points in his Internal Buffer, plus two points of burn.
Because he used the three points in his Internal Buffer, plus two points of burn.But spending internal buffer points doesn't count for elemental overflow. Unless you are counting the burn taken to add the points to the buffer in the first place, in which case the total burn damage is the same as if the buffer hadn't been used.
To fill the buffer: 3 burn x 11 = 33 non-lethal
5 points in defense: 3 buffer + 2 burn x 11 = 22 non-lethal
Total: 55
You're right, he should have 55 non-lethal damage in order to get those bonuses. My bad.
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To me, the Kineticist is actually okay. They don't juggle the 50 odd spells most spellcasters contend with, they have some fairly utilitarian skills and abilities, and they are a source of fairly consistent magical damage in the early game. Also to the people that think magnetic infusion is bad, the wording says metal based. Unless suddenly everybody was using weapons made of glass and wood, nearly 90% of every weapon used by the martial classes is made of metal. And lighting is actually a part of the air element affinities, so it can still be used for sniping enemies at ridiculous ranges.
And I haven't seen anybody touch on the occult origins book. It's not unplayable, so why is it that everyone complains that there are better things than it. Yes, there are better things than it, the class has been out for less than a year. It has not gotten all the support that the other classes have gotten until then. If it was better than the other classes, that would be considerable levels of power creep, which would make those classes unplayable. And that's not what we want, now is it?
And a Kineticist doesn't recover from burn, because having burn unlocks new abilities for the class. Elemental overflow and other such abilities only works when you have taken some burn. The class is about balancing the burn so it doesn't cause as many negative effects, while also getting all those wonderful abilities that make you into a walking natural disaster area for bad guys. Magic casters balance their spell casting against their bank accounts and componants they can carry. It's quite hard to rummage through a bunch of bags for that one ingredient while not receiving an axe to the face or an arrow in the back. Ki using monks restore their Ki through special items and techniques, which are rare and sometimes difficult to use in a combat situation.
Paladins and barbarians give up useful skills like lay on hands and trap sense to get their power to replenish rages and smites. If you end up bleeding to death because of a pendulum trap, or something, more smiting power or rages is not going to seem worth it. It also puts more pressure on the clerics. Now clerics have some amazing magic available to them for healing, but even they have their limits.
Really no class gets these extra power options for free, and it mostly amounts to either taking that 8 hour rest, or burning through more resources for things that only extend your journey so far in a day. You are not trying to build Rome in a day, and in some cases the bad guys are not going anywhere any time soon, so why put yourselves under extra risks.
It's not unplayable, so why is it that everyone complains that there are better things than it.
Everything must be bigger and better. It's the world we live in. Not just Pathfinder or RPGs in general, but pretty much everywhere.
Basic psychology, really.
The question we always ask ourselves is "If the new iPhone doesn't do anything that my older iPhone does, then why should I spend the money to get it?"
That's a valid question.
So Apple tries hard to make sure each new iPhone ACTUALLY IS bigger and better so people will want it.
Game developers are no different. They WANT to do that, but they also recognize, as you said, that consistently releasing bigger and better stuff will invalidate the old stuff. So they usually DO NOT give us bigger and better. Merely different.
Which is awesome.
But it doesn't truly satisfy that basic psychology. Sure, some people say "Well, here's something new, let's run with it." But others say "Dang, it's not better than what I already have so why should I want it?"
Basic psychology.
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
The displeased people are almost always the most vocal, here and everywhere else, while the pleased people happily go about enjoying their pleasure without coming here to raise their loud voices.
Also basic psychology.
I would hate to be a game designer and have to deal with it. I guess that's why they appoint (and hopefully pay very well) a few sacrificial lambs to do most of the dealing.
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The thing is, "different" is only one step to making a good class.
Making sure it is good at something, fills some specific role well is another.
After having been able to play with a Kineticist for a while now they really don't. They're decent damage dealers, but not as good as other classes. They can have decent utility, but not as good as other classes.
And they still have to damage themselves to achieve much of the latter.
It's not about "bigger and better", it's about matching what came before.
Nobody likes to apply the word "mediocre" to something that had such potential. The Kineticist should have been the next Bard, or Inquisitor, or Paladin...well rounded, powerful, versatile, and unique in some manner.
It really only hits that last note, which is unfortunate. The Kineticist is far from irredeemably bad, but it falls squarely under "mediocre".
Your iPhone example is a bit off. It's not "If my iPhone 5 does this, my iPhone 6 needs to do THIS" it's more "This iPhone 6 was released, but at the same time so was the Samsung Galaxy S5, which does more but better and cheaper".
One of the ways the Kineticist could be improved is to give them more ways to boost their DCs. Right now if you want to properly debuff groups you have to invest heavily into two different stats (Dexterity and Constitution) so that they fail a reflex save and then fail a fortitude save to actually be affected. To my knowledge the only way to boost it is to take Elemental Focus / Greater Elemental Focus. This leaves Kineticist DCs in the dust compared to full casters and even they have issues with getting high spell DCs later on.
Earlier levels would be helped by making Kinetic Fist / Blade cost no burn. They're listed as Level 1 form infusions but due to the cost you're either taking nonlethal damage every turn in melee until level 5 or you're wasting your move action to gather energy every time you wanna attack something, and the enemy will quickly catch on that they should interrupt you before you swing a literal fire sword their way. It really hurts a lot of concepts. Thankfully I use the Act system from Unchained so gathering energy doesn't prevent you from moving and attacking, but for any other group it's a real issue.
I do like the burn mechanic. Sure I'm the odd one out here, but I like the flavor and having a nice big pool of nonlethal damage the enemy has to burn through (get it?) before I go negative is reassuring. I do however completely agree that there should be better archetypes for people who don't wanna deal with that complexity or personal risk. Overwhelming Soul feels more like a punishment than an alternative, giving reduced attack and damage, no physical ability score boosts, and only a slightly better version of Internal Buffer (4 points instead of 3, and you don't have to take burn to fill it). It's similar to a Paladin archetype that removes their code, changes their casting stat to Intelligence, and changes Smite Evil so it only works on Chaotic Evil creatures, and as compensation for the nerf you can detect evil as a swift action now.
Outside of PFS, they can get Ability Focus (kinetic blast) to get a +2 to their DC, except for their utility wild talents.
Outside of PFS, they can get Ability Focus (kinetic blast) to get a +2 to their DC, except for their utility wild talents.
My tables (the one I run and the one I play in) don't allow Ability Focus for PCs, and tables vary greatly on the issue. It's certainly not something you can assume will be available like Spell Focus or Elemental Focus. That said, I might make an allowance for Kineticists when I GM considering the lack of published material supporting the class so far. It would certainly help.
Of course, the question remains - their basic blast doesn't have a DC in the way that things like Bombs and Hexes do. It only has a DC when it's been modified by a form or substance infusion in some way. So is it even a viable option for Ability Focus? Eh. I'd say yes for simplicity's sake.
Prerequisite: Special attack.
I don't see why kinetic blast not always having a DC would prevent you from taking it.
And if a GM would allow Improved Natural Attack, Improved Natural Armor or any of the flying monster feats, then why would they not allow Ability Focus without a strong reason why? I mean, I doubt many monsters are going to be able to use Craft Construct. If the GM doesn't allow those others then alright, at least (s)he is consistent.
I'll point out that Kinetic Blast DOES seem to count as a Special Attack, if the Duergar Tyrant statblock is anything to go by, before anyone asks. So it technically would qualify.
There are officially statted kineticists out there!? Where? All I've ever seen is Yoon, from Pathfinder Society, and she doesn't even follow the rules.
I would love to have more examples of how they lay out the kineticist stat block.
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Can I note something. In the class, by 5th level, all blast infusion combinations of one or more are reduced by 1. This reduces further over subsequent levels (8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th). So while at low levels, burn can be more of an issue(much like an oracles curse) it's still not as crippling. This extra freedom makes it possible to access more powerful infusions without needing to gather power as much.
DC for infusions is based of Dex, and there are some minor boosts over later levels. But the best way of boosting it would be giving a bonus to your Dex score. Not exactly hard since by 6th, elemental overflows size bonus to 2 physical stats activates, so all it takes is 3 burn gained from using your infusions to have the option to boost the Dex score, followed the other stat increases at later stages of overflow.
Like I said in one of my earlier posts, all the classes are balanced against something. Spell casters against money, slots and available components on hand. Barbarians balance their trap sense against the option of more rages, Paladins balance their alignment and give up channel energy for more smiting. Even the bard has their versatility balanced against their limited skills in each field of specialisation. More power requires more limitations to balance them out.
The Kineticist is like a single piece of equipment say a rope. Now a rope cannot be as useful as a massive bag of tools, but it can be used for a large number of uses, and like rope, a novice in the field is going to be less effective with it than an expert. So is the case of a Kineticist and their elements. With a prepared blast, they can counterspell any spell of a equal or lower level to their blast with their blasts elemental discripter(so a fire Kineticist could counterspell fire spells or fire descriptor spells, electric could counter electric discriptor spells, telekinetic could counter telekinetic spells and so-on and so-forth).
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There are officially statted kineticists out there!? Where? All I've ever seen is Yoon, from Pathfinder Society, and she doesn't even follow the rules.
I would love to have more examples of how they lay out the kineticist stat block.
I think rynjin is referring to the duregar tyrant enemy type from occult bestiary. It contains the relevent stat blocks for such varients of duregar, as well as samsarans, and some various other entities and enemies. Would I be correct Rynjin?
Eris is correct about the Tyrant.
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There are officially statted kineticists out there!? Where? All I've ever seen is Yoon, from Pathfinder Society, and she doesn't even follow the rules.
I would love to have more examples of how they lay out the kineticist stat block.
I'm actually curious about that as well, there is so many leavers to keep track of that I've started making a crib sheet for my character. It makes my inquisitor feel simple in comparison... In fairness I've been playing my inquisitor since L1, and my kineticists has skipped a few levels here an there from GM credit.