Methods to fix the Kineticist


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Part of the problem is the kineticist being used for comparisons is pretty unoptimized for dpr from the looks of it. Standing and blasting a single target from range is one of the worst things a kineticist can do.

Using your point buy, at 3 burn, the character would actually be 26 con 22 dex (you forgot the size increases from elemental overflow).

Damage would be 6d6 + 4(1/2 con) + 6 (elemental overflow's damage bonus is twice its attack bonus)+3(fire's fury wild talent) + 1d6 (lesser kineticists diadem)

7d6+13 = 50.5 on average, 61 if empowered, 65 if maximized. (None of which cost burn)

Attack is 8+6+3=19
With improved critical, maximized gives a dpr of 68.25 with no use of burn and no use of the 3 free points of infusions.

The last point is especially important. Because that 68.25 dpr goes from being single target to being 15 foot cone or 30 ft line, or you turn it into a burning whip for a turn and full attack. Funnily enough, melee kineticists do much better single target dpr than ranged, and haste benefits them much more than the fighter in the example. (Adds 27 dpr to the fighter, about 60 dpr to a melee kineticist (needs weapon finesse and piranha strike).


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Ehm, main problem with those maths Felyndiira, Flurry of Blasts must all target a different target, or the subsequent blasts just deal an extra 1d6 damage (no Con, no Overflow either, no damage bonuses of any kind).

I imagine with that in mind your calculations drop just a bit.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
If the Kineticist was competitive with the Fighter on DPR there would be a problem. I don't see Fighters dispelling magic or putting up grappling walls of fire.

Neither do you see most Kineticists.

The support in Infusions for many of the elements is lacking. Especially Lightning (ONE Infusion? Really MarK? I'm not letting this one go.).

And even if they shouldn't be competitive with Fighters (which I dispute for a class whose main shctick is "Kill it with a big blast of X"), they should be competitive with, say, an Alchemist, who can full attack with his Bombs for roughly the same damage...plus Extracts...plus Mutagen...plus Discoveries which are on the whole better than Infusions and easier to get via Feats...and doesn't need to f#$$ing kill himself to function... and deal status effects at the same time. Hell, he can full attack Dispel if he wants, and Entangle people with his Bombs...so all the same stuff, but better.

It's the same tired over-valuing of at-will abilities as always.

An alchemist will run out doing that pretty fast?

I just whipped together a pyro build, with a belt of con +4 and a Red Kineticists Diadem can every round without taking burn do an empowered blue flame blast (assuming they spend their move action gathering their energy) and have 3 points of burn in place to max out overflow can do a 14d6+14 in a burning column, or burning fan, with a DC 23 save.

I don't know how one compares multi target DPR vs single target DPR but you can also fly/hover with that build, and you slowly burn down a targets fire resistance. (obviously fire immunity and SR can be an issue) Oh you also have a small pack of fire elementals in there.


Just going to point out that if Kineticists could do archer level damage while also forcing the people they hit to save or be *blinded* (or some other exotic debuff) every single round, then they would be kind of overpowered.

Also, I don't think anyone is factoring favored class bonuses into their calculations. Several races can increase their blast damage by 1 every 3 or 4 levels. It adds up after a while.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

Ehm, main problem with those maths Felyndiira, Flurry of Blasts must all target a different target, or the subsequent blasts just deal an extra 1d6 damage (no Con, no Overflow either, no damage bonuses of any kind).

I imagine with that in mind your calculations drop just a bit.

The ability says "add 1d6 damage" rather than "instead add 1d6 damage", which implies that it doesn't override the part that says "...that each deal damage as if your kineticist level were 1st".

However, I do see the "effects that increase kinetic blast do not apply" part now, so it won't work anyhow. Bummer, and just when I thought it was an actual worthwhile ability.


This would be the relevant part: "Anyblast beyond the first that hits the same target adds 1d6 points of damage;bonuses and penalties to damage don’t apply."


I have calculated my grand-total damage from levels 1 to 20 as a Telekinetic (Not including my later Electric/Aerokinetic). Here are the results (based on a starting Con of 16 and starting Dex of 16). Numbers in parenthesis are from 1 burn (Either Empowered or Maximized). Since my infusions are CMBs, I don't calculate those in, and Quickened/17th are Nova which I'd only do if I thought one of my shots had a good chance of missing..., so don't calculate those in either.

Calculations includes Belts of Physical Might (Dex,Con) +2 at level 8, +4 at 13, and +6 at 15.

Level: ToHit/Average Damage
1: +3/7
2: +4/8
3: +5/12
4: +6/12
5: +6/16(24)
6: +10/21(31)
7: +11/26(39)
8: +13/40
9: +14/49
10: +15/49
11: +16/57(81)
12: +17/57(81)
13: +18/64(91)
14: +19/64(91)
15: +21/103
16: +22/103
17: +22/114
18: +23/114
19: +24/124
20: +25/124

These are base numbers, not including any buffs I might get or give myself (potions, scrolls, etc)


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"Methods to fix the Kineticist", huh? Ok, here are some ideas:

Feats
- a feat that allows Kineticists to heal Burn damage via spells.

- a feat that allow to reduce the Burn damage by 50%.

- a feat that allows Kineticists to apply other Metamagic feats to their Blasts. (Ok, we have Empower, Maximize, Qucking and even Twinned (3.5 feat), what about the rest?)

Features
- Separate area-altering Infusions Wild Talents into its own category, such as "Shape Wild Talents".

- Make each and every one of them available to every blast.

- Add upgrades as separate talents, such as having the Spray and Torrents Talents being upgraded with longer range.

- Have Draining Infusion and Elemental Grip work against SOMETHING when using Aether. Yeah... that isn't working well for this energy :S.

- Have new Talents:
* Acid Blast (Simple; Earth)
* Positive Energy Blast (Composite; Fire)
* Negative Energy Blast (Composite; Water; reasoning being Water is associated to life... and the dark abysses)
* Sonic Blast (Simple; Air)
* GREATER Force Blast (Composite; Aether; deals Composite Blast damage)
* Poison Blast (Composite; Earth; Acid or Metal Blast required; Some metals are toxic, so...)
* Light Blast (Composite; Fire; damage similar to Searing Light)
* Darkness Blast (Composite; Water; damage similar to Searing Light)
* Alignment Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific alignment)
* Bane Blast (Composite; Any blast; dealing damage to a specific creature type)
* Blinding/Deafening/Frightening/Exhausting/Staggering Blast (Composite; Any blast)
* Conductive Blast (Infusion; Any blast basically, transfering Blast damage to a single melee attack, be manufactured or natural, or be melee or ranged.)

- Have MORE Defense Talents:
* a Talent that allows to absorb the Kineticist's primary energy to heal Burn damage. (Yes, I'm harping on this a lot, because I think it's just plain stupid that there's NO way to heal Burn damage.)
* a Talent that grants energy resistance, as simple as that. Sure, Aerial, Cold and Heat Adaptation do that, but... they're dependent on Burn, not your level.
* a Talent that grants energy immunity.

- Have MORE Utility Talents:
* Technically speaking, pick a spell related to an element, make it a Talent, call it a day.


JiCi wrote:


- a feat that allows Kineticists to apply other Metamagic feats to their Blasts. (Ok, we have Empower, Maximize, Qucking and even Twinned (3.5 feat), what about the rest?)

I would like to see, at least, Widened added to the list of possible metamagic feats, but let it affect any wild talent, not just blasts. I'd love to see a Hydrokineticists using Widened Water Manipulator.

JiCi wrote:

* a Talent that grants energy resistance, as simple as that. Sure, Aerial, Cold and Heat Adaptation do that, but... they're dependent on Burn, not your level.

* a Talent that grants energy immunity.

- Have MORE Utility Talents:
* Technically speaking, pick a spell related to an element, make it a Talent, call it a day.

This is the only other part I really agree with you on. However, if you're going to add spells, it should probably be a grouping of similar spells instead. Having to spend a talent for a single spell feels like a bad trade off unless the spell is really good or useful.

JiCi wrote:


- a feat that allows Kineticists to heal Burn damage via spells.
* a Talent that allows to absorb the Kineticist's primary energy to heal Burn damage. (Yes, I'm harping on this a lot, because I think it's just plain stupid that there's NO way to heal Burn damage.)

These don't work as options as the Kineticist needs some sort of limiting factor. Stop and think about what you could do if you could heal Burn by any method. You could max out your Kinetic Defense every single day, and also have free healing (Kinetic Heal) for the entire party. Someone like a Telekinetic would benefit a lot from having free, maximized defense as his is basically a regenerating force field of hit points.

I have ideas for an archetype to allow something to this affect, but I won't be able to write it up until I have more time and opportunity to pour over the class multiple times and ponder on it.


Where is the limit text for kinetic heal? Where you can't just gather and spam it after every fight to top everyone off. I thought they were adding that, but I didn't find it in my read though.

Scarab Sages

You can only gather power on blast talents.


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Imbicatus wrote:
You can only gather power on blast talents.

Ah. Ok. I suspect a lot of tables are going to miss that. All of the terminology for this class kind of blends together.


Tels wrote:
These don't work as options as the Kineticist needs some sort of limiting factor. Stop and think about what you could do if you could heal Burn by any method. You could max out your Kinetic Defense every single day, and also have free healing (Kinetic Heal) for the entire party. Someone like a Telekinetic would benefit a lot from having free, maximized defense as his is basically a regenerating force field of hit points.

That they must have a limiting factor, I understand.

That they DON'T have SOMETHING to counter or reduce that factor, I do NOT understand.

The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

A 20th-level Kineticist spending 6 Burn points gets hit by a whopping 120 points of non-lethal damage. Provided that he didn't get hit before that, he could easily collapse from exhaustion in one single attack.

Yeah, sure, TOTALLY make sense to me ¬_¬;

Having a Talent that converts energy damage into Burn healing... isn't as powerful as you think. A pyrokineticist... is STILL gonna be screwed when fighting a red dragon unless he has the Cold Blast or any non-Fire Blast. Sure, you can tank the breath weapon... but you can't damage the creature that breathed it with your own abilities.


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JiCi wrote:
The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

This was already pointed out very often in the playtest. Now the annoying part to me is that there are ways to eliminate the burn for your blasts, but not for your utility.

Burn HP really should have been equal to 1/2 your kineticist level, with a minimum of 1. Then the cost would remain relevant throughout your career, without it feeling like you are getting worse at burn.


Melkiador wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

This was already pointed out very often in the playtest. Now the annoying part to me is that there are ways to eliminate the burn for your blasts, but not for your utility.

Burn HP really should have been equal to 1/2 your kineticist level, with a minimum of 1. Then the cost would remain relevant throughout your career, without it feeling like you are getting worse at burn.

Well... I feel like both the Blast Talents and the Infusion Talents are the bread and butter of the Kineticist, similar to the How Warlock's Eldritch Blast took the majority of the class's features.

Also, the Utility Talents HAVE a reason to Burn the Kineticist, because flavor-wise, they DEMAND the Kineticist an effort to maintain the Talent active. THAT's actual physical exhaustion. Then again... Utility Talents either are Burn-free or cost 1 Burn point. You're not gonna demolish yourself with those anyway.


When counting the number of damage die, does a composite blast have one 2d6 or two 1d6?


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If I was going to revise the Kineticist, my first step would be to remove "burn", gather power, infusion specialization, internal buffer, etc as a central mechanic. I'd replace it with a "you can use X points of powers per round, and increase X by 1 for the round by taking 10 points of nonlethal damage" mechanic.

It'd take some tuning, but I think it could be made to play almost exactly the same, and it'd be way less fiddly. It'd also go a long way towards making it feel less like you're being punished just for wanting to use your class abilities.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
JiCi wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
JiCi wrote:
The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

This was already pointed out very often in the playtest. Now the annoying part to me is that there are ways to eliminate the burn for your blasts, but not for your utility.

Burn HP really should have been equal to 1/2 your kineticist level, with a minimum of 1. Then the cost would remain relevant throughout your career, without it feeling like you are getting worse at burn.

Well... I feel like both the Blast Talents and the Infusion Talents are the bread and butter of the Kineticist, similar to the How Warlock's Eldritch Blast took the majority of the class's features.

Also, the Utility Talents HAVE a reason to Burn the Kineticist, because flavor-wise, they DEMAND the Kineticist an effort to maintain the Talent active. THAT's actual physical exhaustion. Then again... Utility Talents either are Burn-free or cost 1 Burn point. You're not gonna demolish yourself with those anyway.

As I dig in I am surprised that you can't gather energy to off set utility powers. I guess infinite haste would be bad.

Would it be as simple as saying you got you con bonus + 1/2 kin level burn per day, and when you hit 0 you can take non-lethal damage to get some back?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The first thing I would change is some of the element-restricted forms. I don't get why stuff like explosion, chain, or wall has to be restricted - why is it such a sin if Master Waterbender Jatana (totally not Katara) wants to make a wall of cold, or an explosion of ice shards?

In fact, it would be better to just make form infusions available for all elements. That way, if someone really wants earth tornado, they can do just that.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JiCi wrote:
Tels wrote:
These don't work as options as the Kineticist needs some sort of limiting factor. Stop and think about what you could do if you could heal Burn by any method. You could max out your Kinetic Defense every single day, and also have free healing (Kinetic Heal) for the entire party. Someone like a Telekinetic would benefit a lot from having free, maximized defense as his is basically a regenerating force field of hit points.

That they must have a limiting factor, I understand.

That they DON'T have SOMETHING to counter or reduce that factor, I do NOT understand.

The Kineticist exhausts himself MORE as he levels up. Shouldn't that be the complete opposite? Shouldn't he be MORE resiliant to Burn as he GROWS stronger?

A 20th-level Kineticist spending 6 Burn points gets hit by a whopping 120 points of non-lethal damage. Provided that he didn't get hit before that, he could easily collapse from exhaustion in one single attack.

Yeah, sure, TOTALLY make sense to me ¬_¬;

Having a Talent that converts energy damage into Burn healing... isn't as powerful as you think. A pyrokineticist... is STILL gonna be screwed when fighting a red dragon unless he has the Cold Blast or any non-Fire Blast. Sure, you can tank the breath weapon... but you can't damage the creature that breathed it with your own abilities.

I wish people would stop with this fallacy.

A kineticist does not burn himself MORE with each point of burn. He burns himself proportionally the same. A 20th level kineticist with toughness 24 Con and FCB in HP takes 20 points of nonlethal damage.

Out of approximately 298 HP (assuming average HP) (6.7% of their total hit points)

At level 12 with 20 Con, FCB and toughness a kineticist has 141.5 hp. (8.48%)

And that's assuming you aren't even going for maximum Con to boost DCs and the like.

As an overall percentage of your health, you either stay around the same or slightly improve at withstanding burn damage.

Then you take into account Internal Buffer, Elemental Overflow (which increases your max and current HP even further) infusion specialisation, metakinetic specialization and master and Supercharge to reduce burn costs so that it becomes incredibly unlikely that you'll take Burn at all unless it's an emergency and really want to Nova.

So please stop spouting this lie, it's mathematically incorrect.


Infusion Specialization reduces the burn cost of your infusions at a fixed rate. At 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 you reduce the cost by 1 point (total 6 burn free points towards infusions). Composite blasts get a reduction of 1 point of burn at 16th level. At 19th level you reduce the cost of any one Metakinesis you want (pick one when you gain this ability). This could grant free Empower, a move action Quicken with your Standard action being able to give you a fully infused basic blast or a 1 burn composite blast.

For a full-round action and a move action next round, you can throw out 4 composite blasts with 0 burn cost.

You can either pay for your blasting power in burn which benefits Elemental Overflow, or in action economy.

High level Kineticists should have no problems with burn. If you can't manage burn but still want to play a Kineticist, take the Overwhelming Soul archetype.


Wait, when did wall get restricted?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Wait, when did wall get restricted?

I don't know why I remembered wall being fire.

My belief still applies to the other element-related blast shapes, though.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I wish people would stop with this fallacy.

A kineticist does not burn himself MORE with each point of burn. He burns himself proportionally the same. A 20th level kineticist with toughness 24 Con and FCB in HP takes 20 points of nonlethal damage.

Occult Adventures, Kineticist, Burn, Page 11 wrote:
For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level.

You take 20 points of non-lethal damage if your 20th-level Kineticist Burns ONE point. THAT same 20 points gets multiplied by the number of Burn you accept.

Quote:

Out of approximately 298 HP (assuming average HP) (6.7% of their total hit points)

At level 12 with 20 Con, FCB and toughness a kineticist has 141.5 hp. (8.48%)

And that's assuming you aren't even going for maximum Con to boost DCs and the like.

You only take in account if only ONE Burn point is accepted, when many people will accept more.

Here's something: at 16th, if you have taken 112 points of damage (7 x 16 = 112), you get Elemental Overflow's last tier of abilities. So basically, be a third or even half-exhausted to bolster.

Quote:

As an overall percentage of your health, you either stay around the same or slightly improve at withstanding burn damage.

Then you take into account Internal Buffer, Elemental Overflow (which increases your max and current HP even further) infusion specialisation, metakinetic specialization and master and Supercharge to reduce burn costs so that it becomes incredibly unlikely that you'll take Burn at all unless it's an emergency and really want to Nova.

Or... you just happen to have a weapon or any item in your hand that you cannot drop for some reason... such as trying to blast opponents while climbing a ladder or rope...

Granted, you probably will spend most of your time away from combat and blast opponents. Even then, if you can reduce the Burn cost of infusions, you'll probably rely on Kinetic Blade / Fist / Whip to attack in melee than drawing your weapon.

It doesn't change the fact that Gathering Power requires both hands to be free... and that isn't something to avoid either...

Quote:
So please stop spouting this lie, it's mathematically incorrect.

I'm not lying, the Burn damage does get higher and higher as you level up.

It's still pretty dumb that that's NO WAY to avoid this aside from resting. It's like they made the class VULNERABLE in every way possible to Burn.

- No spell to remove Burn, even at 8 or 9th Level.
- Full night's rest required, pretty much questions if a Ring of Substenance's 2 hours of rest works normally.
- No feat to reduce Burn damage, even if a high Constitution and/or Level prerequisite.
- No skill use to resist Burn damage
- No magic item to reduce Burn damage

Look, it's all good and all to reduce the Burn cost, but the Burn damage is still a problem.


CalethosVB wrote:

Infusion Specialization reduces the burn cost of your infusions at a fixed rate. At 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 you reduce the cost by 1 point (total 6 burn free points towards infusions). Composite blasts get a reduction of 1 point of burn at 16th level. At 19th level you reduce the cost of any one Metakinesis you want (pick one when you gain this ability). This could grant free Empower, a move action Quicken with your Standard action being able to give you a fully infused basic blast or a 1 burn composite blast.

For a full-round action and a move action next round, you can throw out 4 composite blasts with 0 burn cost.

You can either pay for your blasting power in burn which benefits Elemental Overflow, or in action economy.

High level Kineticists should have no problems with burn. If you can't manage burn but still want to play a Kineticist, take the Overwhelming Soul archetype.

Like I say, you can reduce the Burn cost, and good for you if it doesn't cost you Burn, but the Burn damage is still a problem... because there's no way to solve it.


Philo Pharynx wrote:

You've got a huge error in your post

LoneKnave wrote:


...
+you are like gambit

...

+you can be like gambit, if you want

You put plus signs next to "be like gambit". Big mistake. They should be minus signs. Flashing red minus signs.

Bite your tongue sir!


JiCi, try actually playing a Kineticist and seeing how much burn damage you actually end up taking.

Hint: Not a lot as long as you use your options.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JiCi wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I wish people would stop with this fallacy.

A kineticist does not burn himself MORE with each point of burn. He burns himself proportionally the same. A 20th level kineticist with toughness 24 Con and FCB in HP takes 20 points of nonlethal damage.

Occult Adventures, Kineticist, Burn, Page 11 wrote:
For each point of burn she accepts, a kineticist takes 1 point of nonlethal damage per character level.

You take 20 points of non-lethal damage if your 20th-level Kineticist Burns ONE point. THAT same 20 points gets multiplied by the number of Burn you accept.

Quote:

Out of approximately 298 HP (assuming average HP) (6.7% of their total hit points)

At level 12 with 20 Con, FCB and toughness a kineticist has 141.5 hp. (8.48%)

And that's assuming you aren't even going for maximum Con to boost DCs and the like.

You only take in account if only ONE Burn point is accepted, when many people will accept more.

Here's something: at 16th, if you have taken 112 points of damage (7 x 16 = 112), you get Elemental Overflow's last tier of abilities. So basically, be a third or even half-exhausted to bolster.

Quote:

As an overall percentage of your health, you either stay around the same or slightly improve at withstanding burn damage.

Then you take into account Internal Buffer, Elemental Overflow (which increases your max and current HP even further) infusion specialisation, metakinetic specialization and master and Supercharge to reduce burn costs so that it becomes incredibly unlikely that you'll take Burn at all unless it's an emergency and really want to Nova.

Or... you just happen to have a weapon or any item in your hand that you cannot drop for some reason... such as trying to blast opponents while climbing a ladder or rope...

Granted, you probably will spend most of your time away from combat and blast opponents. Even then, if you can reduce the Burn cost of infusions, you'll probably rely on Kinetic Blade / Fist / Whip to attack in...

If a 20th level Kineticist accepts 6 points of burn he takes 120 points of damage. Or 40.26% of their hp, leaving them with 178 hp (still a pretty great amount).

At 12th level if he accepts 6 points of burn he takes 72 points of damage. 51.06%

So again you're incorrect. You're 10% better at taking burn damage.

You keep looking at the raw numbers, but you aren't looking at how your Constitution and hp will likely grow much higher than the fixed multiplier.

You only take damage when you take the burn.

If you're at 5 points of burn, and take the 6th point later you take 20 points of damage at that point, not 120.

You don't get worse at taking burn. You just don't. It's not true.


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@Tels, @DM_aka_Dudemeister

It still doesn't change the fact that you cannot heal Burn damage. Furthermore, the more Burn you get, the more at risk you are at falling unconscious, since the threshold is getting smaller and smaller. Even if there are ways to avoid using Burn, once you get Burned, you're screwed.

You guys are actually DEFENDING a weakness/penalty? Really now? That's like hating abilities that reduce Arcane Spell Failure so you would want arcane spellcasters to HAVE a penalty when wearing armor, or even hating a red dragon for casting a spell or using a magic item that grant cold resistance/immunity.

You can suppress poisons, diseases, curses, ability damages/drains, negative levels, arcane spell failures, armor check penalties, non-proficiency penalties and other problems, but not Burn...

No high-level spell, no Burn-reducing feat, no magic item, not even a talent... nothing... Even being RESISTANT or IMMUNE to non-lethal damage doesn't work.


If you casting stat also gave you hit points (as well as saves) that would be pretty unbalancing. Burn is just a way of removing those bonus hit points.


Does this feat help at all?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/flagellant

You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain effects. Also, you suffer no adverse effect when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, and you become staggered when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points. You never fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage.


I dunno, if a Red Dragon (a super-genius of a scaled engine of destruction) covers his weakness, I'd find it impressive. Annoying, certainly, but impressive.

Arcane Spell Failure would bother me as a mechanic if it weren't for a pair of 1st level spells that circumvent the need for actual armor to an extent. If that doesn't strike you as interesting, there are feats that exist. I like it, as it sets up an entire narrative in the background.

Burn is Burn. If you don't like the mechanic, there's an entire Archertpe dedicated to removing Burn from your class. Aside from that, I can say this: I dislike the terminology used to describe Burn. Burn I feel would be more palatable to a lot of people if it were its own damage type, maybe with an explanatory sidebar describing how it is and isn't nonlethal damage.

As for eliminating Burn you accumulate...how do you price an item that has an almost identical penalty on a character at all levels? Depending on what it was used for, the removed burn could have been used for anything from Tremorsense to Evasion all day, all the way up to Tsunami. The benefit is too variable for an item or spell to really work. A feat maybe, a talent possibly to expand the internal buffer.

Scarab Sages

Never7ever wrote:

Does this feat help at all?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/flagellant

You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain effects. Also, you suffer no adverse effect when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, and you become staggered when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points. You never fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage.

It requires worshipping Zon-Kuthon, which is a downside but it's a really good feat for burn. You would need a ring of ferocious action.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JiCi wrote:

@Tels, @DM_aka_Dudemeister

It still doesn't change the fact that you cannot heal Burn damage. Furthermore, the more Burn you get, the more at risk you are at falling unconscious, since the threshold is getting smaller and smaller. Even if there are ways to avoid using Burn, once you get Burned, you're screwed.

You guys are actually DEFENDING a weakness/penalty? Really now? That's like hating abilities that reduce Arcane Spell Failure so you would want arcane spellcasters to HAVE a penalty when wearing armor, or even hating a red dragon for casting a spell or using a magic item that grant cold resistance/immunity.

You can suppress poisons, diseases, curses, ability damages/drains, negative levels, arcane spell failures, armor check penalties, non-proficiency penalties and other problems, but not Burn...

No high-level spell, no Burn-reducing feat, no magic item, not even a talent... nothing... Even being RESISTANT or IMMUNE to non-lethal damage doesn't work.

You'll note that spellcasters don't have an ability to regain spell slots without 8 hours rest.

That Paladins don't have a way to regain smites without 8 hours rest.

That Occultists can't recover focus without 8 hours rest.

If you don't like burn go play an Overwhelming Soul. You'll never ever take a single point of Burn.

I've shown you mathematically that the consequences of Burn do not get worse over time. The devs have provided you an option for playing without Burn if you psychologically can't get over the idea.

Burn damage can be mitigated: Improve your Con. Each point of burn becomes less of a percentage of your health lost when you improve your Con.

Yes, I'm defending a weakness of a class, just as when someone complains that spellcasters can't regain spellslots without 8 hours rest I would tell them it's a balancing factor of the class.


Here's two feats for your consideration.

Burn Treatment (General)
Prerequisites: Burn class feature, Con 15, Kineticist 3
Benefit: Reduce the amount of non-lethal damage taken per point of burn by 1. You may select this feat multiple times. It's benefit stacks.
Normal: Each point of burn taken deals 1 point of non-lethal damage per hit die.

Slow Burner (General)
Prerequisites: Burn Treatment, Burn class feature, Con 15, Kineticist 5
Benefit: You may accept one additional point of burn per day. You may select this feat multiple times but no more times than you have selected Burn Treatment. It's effects stack.
Normal: You may only accept 3 + Con points of burn a day.

This keeps relevant at all levels but allows you to mitigate is effects and gain some extra usefulness.


Imbicatus wrote:


It requires worshipping Zon-Kuthon, which is a downside but it's a really good feat for burn. You would need a ring of ferocious action.

An excellent item, thank you for pointing it out.

Please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, but while the feat was obviously defined for zon-kuthon, wouldn't any god that fufills the areas of pain, loss OR envy also qualify you for this feat?

Silver Crusade

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CalethosVB wrote:

Here's two feats for your consideration.

Burn Treatment (General)
Prerequisites: Burn class feature, Con 15, Kineticist 3
Benefit: Reduce the amount of non-lethal damage taken per point of burn by 1. You may select this feat multiple times. It's benefit stacks.
Normal: Each point of burn taken deals 1 point of non-lethal damage per hit die.

Slow Burner (General)
Prerequisites: Burn Treatment, Burn class feature, Con 15, Kineticist 5
Benefit: You may accept one additional point of burn per day. You may select this feat multiple times but no more times than you have selected Burn Treatment. It's effects stack.
Normal: You may only accept 3 + Con points of burn a day.

This keeps relevant at all levels but allows you to mitigate is effects and gain some extra usefulness.

For the first one, the kineticist is so feat starved that I wouldn't want to spend the multiple feats it would take for this to be effective.

As to the second, just buying a Con boosting belt, or putting points in Con at level up do that.

I'd prefer feats more like:

Brain Strain [Strain]
You use your intellect to gain a reserve pool of energy before your body begins to burn out.
Prerequisite: Int 13+
Benefit: Each morning you gain a total pool of temporary hit points equal to your Intelligence Bonus times your level. When you take burn damage this pool is reduced first. When this pool is emptied you take a -1 penalty on Intelligence checks and Intelligence based skill checks until the next time you recover burn.
Special: If you have other (Strain) feats these all combine into a single pool, and you do not take the penalties until all of your strain pools are empty. An overwhelming soul who selects this feat may accept 1 point of Burn per strain feat selected. An Elemental annihilator may select a Strain feat as a bonus feat.

Discipline Strain [Strain]
You use your mental discipline to gain a reserve pool of energy before your body begins to burn out.
Prerequisite: Wis 13+
Benefit: Each morning you gain a total pool of temporary nonlethal hit points equal to your Wisdom Bonus times your level. When you take burn damage this pool is reduced first. When this pool is emptied you take a -1 penalty on Wisdom checks, Wisdom based Skill checks and Will Saves until the next time you recover burn.
Special: If you have other (Strain) feats these all combine into a single pool, and you do not take the penalties until all of your strain pools are empty. An overwhelming soul who selects this feat may accept 1 point of Burn per strain feat selected. An Elemental annihilator may select a Strain feat as a bonus feat.

Personal Strain [Strain]
You use your force of personality to gain a reserve pool of energy before your body begins to burn out.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+
Benefit: Each morning you gain a total pool of temporary nonlethal hit points equal to your Charisma Bonus times your level. When you take burn damage this pool is reduced first. When this pool is emptied you take a -1 penalty on Charisma checks and Charisma based Skill checks until the next time you recover burn.
Special: If you have other (Strain) feats these all combine into a single pool, and you do not take the penalties until all of your strain pools are empty. An overwhelming soul who selects this feat may accept 1 point of Burn per strain feat selected. An Elemental annihilator may select a Strain feat as a bonus feat.


Never7ever wrote:

Does this feat help at all?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/flagellant

You gain a +4 bonus on saving throws against pain effects. Also, you suffer no adverse effect when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, and you become staggered when your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points. You never fall unconscious due to nonlethal damage.

Doesn't work "A kineticist who

has accepted burn never benefits from abilities
that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she
receives from nonlethal damage."


Milo v3 wrote:


Doesn't work "A kineticist who
has accepted burn never benefits from abilities
that allow her to ignore or alter the effects she
receives from nonlethal damage."

Ah. That's disappointing.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


For the first one, the kineticist is so feat starved that I wouldn't want to spend the multiple feats it would take for this to be effective.

Feat starved how? Which feats do we need?


Probably would be nice to make a list of wanted feats.

Point Blank and Precise Shot are a given. Toughness seems pretty useful. What else?


Well, we don't need Precise Shot, we're not using a weapon. It's only a weapon for the sake of feats. And Point Blank is kinda if-y, if like me, you have Extended Range. As a flyer, I prefer to stay out of that 30' range.


BTW, should have added that in addition to Toughness, Weapon Focus is a good one, but I don't know of much more that's needed to qualify us as feat starved. :/


Precise Shot is important for blasts attacking regular AC. Even those that attacking touch AC benefit from it as potential cover from allies can be just as bad.

I found Toughness to be awesome for the first time ever since HP is such a big thing resource for the class.

With elemental overflow I'm not yet inclined to get Weapon Focus. The straight out bonus to attack balances out the average BAB and potential size bonus to dexterity even more so.

At levels 7 onward I'm thinking most of my feats are gonna be Extra Wild Talent to pick up lower level talents I missed out on. I'm still debating on whether to swap out my human favored class bonus (HP) I've been doing for 7 levels for 1/6 Extra Wild Talent in order to get another level 1 talent.

Weapon Finesse for anyone ever planning on going melee with Kinetic Blade or Whip and making more than one attack and playing anything but an Elemental Ascetic (they might be more inclined for Strength, who knows. I'd really need to stat one out one day).


You need Precise Shot because shooting in to melee effects all attack rolls against a target in melee, not just from weapons. Point Blank Shot is a pre-rew for Precise. Toughness is pretty much a staple for the class.

Other feats you are likely to desire are Combat Casting, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. If you pick up Kinetic Blad/Whip, you may want to get Weapon Finesse as well (if the feat works with the Blade/Whip).

Outside of that, it's pretty much up to you. I'd say the only 'required' feats are Point Blank, Precise and Toughness.


Tels wrote:
You need Precise Shot because shooting in to melee effects all attack rolls against a target in melee, not just from weapons.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html wrote:
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Not saying you're wrong, but this is the only rule I know about. There's some other rule that gives the -4 penalty?

Combat Casting is surely a good one, however the wording on Concentration says: the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. While I'd assume this would be Con, it could be argued that we don't get an ability bonus to Concentration checks. :P


Sphynx wrote:
Tels wrote:
You need Precise Shot because shooting in to melee effects all attack rolls against a target in melee, not just from weapons.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html wrote:
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Not saying you're wrong, but this is the only rule I know about. There's some other rule that gives the -4 penalty?

Combat Casting is surely a good one, however the wording on Concentration says: the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. While I'd assume this would be Con, it could be argued that we don't get an ability bonus to Concentration checks. :P

I guess I should have clarified that by 'weapons' I was referring to bows, daggers and the like. But when it comes to the mechanics of the game... I guess it depends on what the game defines as a 'weapon'. This is something that has always been a little murky.

However, you should note that Kinetic Blast is considered a weapon as per the Weapon Focus feat, therefore it would receive Shooting into Melee penalties. As far as I know, any ranged touch attack takes the penalties, though this could just be a nearly universally 'assumed true' rule that might be in error.


Anything requiring a ranged attack roll would suffer from shooting into melee. That's been a common knowledge rule since the 3.0 days.

But here's a Mark Seifter post indicating spellcasters need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot to avoid the shooting into melee penalty.


Tels, the Kinetic Blast is specific that they "count as s type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus." That is all... they aren't weapons.

Protoman, this is the first I've heard of this, though admittedly, I learned years ago to avoid these forums, and am only back to understand Kineticist better. If they want it to be more than weapons, they should take the time to edit the PRD to reflect this. While I won't argue if it's canon, it's definitely not how we play. :/

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