Methods to fix the Kineticist


Homebrew and House Rules

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I think the best "fix" would be to:

1) NonLethal damage from burn heals at 1 per 15 minutes, but not not healable from spells or abilities.

2) Burn is a separate counter, so healing of NonLethal Damage doesn't reduce your "Burn", and thus also doesn't expand the amount of times you can "Burn" between resting periods.

3) Elemental Defense has a reduce cost of 1 burn per 5 levels. So, at 10th level, you can spend 3 burn to receive the effects of having spent 5 burns on your defense.


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Tels wrote:

No, I don't think I will when, as far as I can tell, nearly every, singl post he's made in this thread is him saying, "WAAAAAH I CAN'T HEAL BURN!!! WAAAAH"

That's all he's doing. Complaining that he can't heal burn and that the designers failed because they didn't put in a spell or feat or an item to heal Burn even though healing Burn was explicitly denied from the very beginning of the damned playtest!

The Kineticist playtest is the best one I've ever seen on Paizo so far. Mark really listened to the players and included a lot of options based on our feedback. The Kineticist is, probably, the most 'community driven class design' that Paizo has ever done, and this guy is still bloody complaining about it!

I'm "complaining" about it because it would have been a no-brainer's addition. I wouldn't call this stubborness from the devs, but it is rather a strict ruling. As far as I can tell, healing Burn outside of resting wouldn't break the game. For instance, healing Burn would cancel Elemental Overflow. In fact, casting a Burn healing spell on an opposing kineticist would debuff him. Whoops...

The Kineticist's major problem is that he has a weakness to non-lethal damage. A bunch of rogues with saps or monks with non-lethal unarmed strikes can do a number on a kineticist by checking him out of Burn. If he's taken too much non-lethal damage, he can't Burn. There's an obvious problem with the Burn mecanic here.

Nothing that a high-level spell, a high-tier feat or an expansive magic item could solve though...

Milo v3 wrote:
I do think it should be said that electricity does have more than 1 infusion. It has 11 infusions available to it, though it only has 1 special electric infusion (3 if you count magnetic and thundering).

Agreed... Spray and Torrent aren't available to electricity... Dude, Torrent would have mimicked Lightning Bolt :P

Sphynx wrote:

I think the best "fix" would be to:

1) NonLethal damage from burn heals at 1 per 15 minutes, but not not healable from spells or abilities.

2) Burn is a separate counter, so healing of NonLethal Damage doesn't reduce your "Burn", and thus also doesn't expand the amount of times you can "Burn" between resting periods.

3) Elemental Defense has a reduce cost of 1 burn per 5 levels. So, at 10th level, you can spend 3 burn to receive the effects of having spent 5 burns on your defense.

Number 1 looks fine by me.


I'm starting to think the Aether doesn't even need fixing, thanks to their Force Ward. Unlike others, when I burn 3 of my initial 7 (I'm level 6), I don't actually lose any HP (well... 3). Which means I lose a -maximum- of 24 HPs.

The thing is, I start the game with 68HP, and on those rare times I actually get down to 44HP because of burn, I'm still way ahead of my 6th level Air Wizard that I played before the Kineticist. My Wizard at 6th level (Con only 10 because he's a Sylph and focused on Dex and Int) had 27HP before I finally bought Toughness, which bumped me to 33.

Now, I realize that when I play, I play for theme and don't even consider optimizing my character. My wizard is probably seen on these boards as unplayable/squishy (which is likely why half my memorized spells are Vanish/Invis/Etc). I'm so happy with my Telekineticist because not only have I nearly doubled my HPs, but the other half of my spells were TK in nature half the time. I get all the things I've wanted in a character plus I'm not as squishy. Especially once I get Telekinetic Invisibility... that's the icing on the cake for me. All I lost for those extra HPs is that I can't "fly" as the spell.

Plus... I run around with my full HPs most of the time anyhows, thanks to the Ward, of 83. That's more than 3x what I'm use to, and I've got everything I've wanted in a character, plus a great offense (at least compared to what I'm use to).

Albeit, my party is going to miss all those Hastes I'd do, but by now they have a reason to use their Use Magic Device skill. ;)


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Did anyone else miss that you get your element's Basic X for free at level 1?


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Calth wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:
Calth wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I don't care if it's an AoE or not, it's still not much damage, especially when they save.

Kinetic Blade is nice...but it's not the Blast. The class shouldn't be forced into melee attacking to deal good damage...which is yet another thing that was stressed ad naueeam during the playtest, but not addressed.

I haven't ignored anything. I mentioned both of these options already.

Having at-will equivalent to 5th level AoE evocation spells is not much AoE damage?

Or being able to drop staggering AoEs at will for hydromancers?

There are a lot of powerful viable options available for kineticists. Standing there and playing archer just doesn't happen to be one. I'm sorry that's what you want the class to be, but its just not

But it should be.

I love the Kineticist; it might even be my favorite class now, but I still feel that I should be able to specialize in DPR and excel at it.

The Elemental Annihilator goes a long way towards fulfilling that desire, but in doing so it completely obliterates the Utility Wild Talents, without which I feel like I'm just playing a fighter archetype that gets less feats.

I also might come off like a petulant child to Tels, but a wonderous item that you could store burn points in would be incredibly welcome; as would something to mitigate the actual non-lethal damage taken per burn point.

You can specialize in dpr. Pyrokineticist, grap kinetic whip and you can dpr just fine. You just cant do it from range.

And that's the problem. I like the blast mechanics. I like the idea of a single massive blast per round. I don't like that I am going to dish out more DPR with Kinetic Blade/Whip in melee than I could ever hope to do with a Simple/Composite Blast.

Right now a non-melee Kineticist is dealing non-optimized, chained rogue levels of damage (albeit in a far more consistent manner). They should be dealing optimized blast sorcerer levels of damage without maxing out burn in one fight, at the very least.


Just because you want a class to act a way doesn't mean it should. But whatever. If you really want to stand at range to blast, try running something like this past your GM:

Dart
Form Infusion
Universal
Level 3
Burn 2

You concentrate your blast into a small dart of energy or compacted physical mass to attack a single target. Your blast does 1.5 times damage.

Spear
Form Infusion
Universal
Level 6
Burn 4

You focus your blast into a single narrow beam to focus on a single target. Your blast deals twice its normal damage.

Lance
Form Infusion
Universal
Level 8
Burn 4

You channel your blast into a devastating pinpoint to ravage a single target. Your blast deals 2.5 its normal damage.


Melkiador wrote:
Did anyone else miss that you get your element's Basic X for free at level 1?

I didn't. But that's mostly because I clamoured for it back when I had to play level 1 pyro and embarrassingly had to tell me party while in the sewers I couldn't provide a light source for everyone. So when that got promised for the final version, I was chompin at the bit with glee.


Deadbeat Doom wrote:

And that's the problem. I like the blast mechanics. I like the idea of a single massive blast per round. I don't like that I am going to dish out more DPR with Kinetic Blade/Whip in melee than I could ever hope to do with a Simple/Composite Blast.

Right now a non-melee Kineticist is dealing non-optimized, chained rogue levels of damage (albeit in a far more consistent manner). They should be dealing optimized blast sorcerer levels of damage without maxing out burn in one fight, at the very least.

Isn't this the purpose of... the Metakinesis feature?


JiCi wrote:
Deadbeat Doom wrote:

And that's the problem. I like the blast mechanics. I like the idea of a single massive blast per round. I don't like that I am going to dish out more DPR with Kinetic Blade/Whip in melee than I could ever hope to do with a Simple/Composite Blast.

Right now a non-melee Kineticist is dealing non-optimized, chained rogue levels of damage (albeit in a far more consistent manner). They should be dealing optimized blast sorcerer levels of damage without maxing out burn in one fight, at the very least.

Isn't this the purpose of... the Metakinesis feature?

It is, but the Metakinesis feature isn't nearly as useful as it could be. Even at 20th level you can only effectively use three points of burn worth of Metakinesis abilities in a single round (without spending actual burn), so like free Empower + Maximize or just Quicken. Not to mention that unless I am completely miss-remembering how Metakinesis works (a distinct possibility), you can slap those on melee just as easily as ranged; and that of course benefits Blade/Whip more than Ranged blasts.

Sorry for waiting so long to reply; I kinda lost track of this thread.

EDIT: Also, I realize that "only" free Empower + Maximize sounds whiny, but I honestly think that you should get a point off of ALL Metakinesis, not just one. It is too easy to nova half of your burn in a single round using Metakinesis right now.


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I think that level 7 should grant an infusion like normal, in addition to expanded element. I honestly don't think that would be a big deal, especially in comparison to level 5, which packs Infusion Specialization, Metakinesis (Empower), and an infusion all into one level.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

My Understanding of the Burn is as follows. You take nonlethal damage to gain bonus effects and forms for your main ability(your elemental Blasts). The concept is not flawed in its execution since, for the kineticist, its Their Body actually being put on the line. With Ki and Magic, you are expending an energy that does not directly come from your own body. Either it comes from some source like the ley lines, gods, the vital energy of the world, or the lineage of your blood. When you run out of power, you don't just suddenly faint or fall unconsious. you simply take a moment to rest and recouperate, or you expoit the source of your power for as much as you can for the conflicts ahead.

Kineticists are their own battery. If they overtax themselves, it could KILL them... or at least limit their capacity to do much until they actually get some rest. Now could the class options for infusions use some work? Yes. And they are working on trying to create more infusions to fill the roles they still have open.

To me, the ways they could improve ranged vs melee is, as has been noted further up in this thread, more variety in terms of the ranged attacks you are using. Having your character being able to fire a mixture of beams, discs, waves, spears and harpoons(each with their own benefits and effects like minor homing, AOE, effects on impact, piercing etc).

A Kineticist's arsenal should not just be 'i Blast him with fire' but tapping into different methods of manipulating the energy that burns in every fiber of your being or soul. Hitting someone with a Gigantic sphere of wreathing plasma should be but one of your many tools that you can use. When and how you use it is where the strategy comes in.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As for dealing with the non lethal of burn, being able to maybe vent burn damage(that is the no lethal effect of burn) away by spending maybe x number of full-rounds 'venting' to remove a certain amount of burn each round. This might leave you vulnerable to attack as you cut down the amount of burn you have so you can prep back into using your more crazy blasts and infusions.

Does this sound like a good idea?


ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

As for dealing with the non lethal of burn, being able to maybe vent burn damage(that is the no lethal effect of burn) away by spending maybe x number of full-rounds 'venting' to remove a certain amount of burn each round. This might leave you vulnerable to attack as you cut down the amount of burn you have so you can prep back into using your more crazy blasts and infusions.

Does this sound like a good idea?

This would basically remove all the downsides of the Burn mechanic, as everyone would just use it to vent all the Burn points not dedicated to the Defense powers and Overflow bonuses. In-combat, I can't think of any Wild Talent that could be worth consecutive full-rounds of being stationary and useless, and that's assuming the Wild Talent would still be of use once you've finished venting, due to changing conditions during the encounter.

Maybe there could be a daily limit on the points of Burn vented, but then it would just function like a reverse Internal Buffer.


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Wilson Abrams wrote:


This would basically remove all the downsides of the Burn mechanic, as everyone would just use it to vent all the Burn points not dedicated to the Defense powers and Overflow bonuses.

Not quite. This would make Burn an essentially per-encounter mechanic, somewhat like DSP's Path of War Maneuvers that can be recovered as a Full-Round.

Taking damage to use your abilities is still very much debilitating in the span of a single combat, it's just not going to haunt you all day if you want to actually do something before level 11 than plink away with your dinky little Blast.


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A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

.

Player 1: Is everything okay with Irekel over there? He looks seriously constipated.
Player 2: Nah, he's fine. He's just repacking his buffer.
Player 1: ( ゚Д゚)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Wilson Abrams wrote:
ErisAcolyte-Chaos jester wrote:

As for dealing with the non lethal of burn, being able to maybe vent burn damage(that is the no lethal effect of burn) away by spending maybe x number of full-rounds 'venting' to remove a certain amount of burn each round. This might leave you vulnerable to attack as you cut down the amount of burn you have so you can prep back into using your more crazy blasts and infusions.

Does this sound like a good idea?

This would basically remove all the downsides of the Burn mechanic, as everyone would just use it to vent all the Burn points not dedicated to the Defense powers and Overflow bonuses. In-combat, I can't think of any Wild Talent that could be worth consecutive full-rounds of being stationary and useless, and that's assuming the Wild Talent would still be of use once you've finished venting, due to changing conditions during the encounter.

Maybe there could be a daily limit on the points of Burn vented, but then it would just function like a reverse Internal Buffer.

I think i need to apply some context to the way that venting works in my head. lets say you have a kineticist, who has just used a large amount of burn on some really big abilities. venting some burn(SOME as in 1d4+1 points) to enable them to keep tempo with some of the higher tier threats is okay.

Should you be able to simply do it all the time... Not really. I agree with the idea that it shouldn't be something you can use willy-nilly(just ask some gms of witch players with slumber). A Daily limit based on con could help with that, but maybe allowing for feats to increase the daily limits or make it a lower action cost to vent(like a move or standard action), more likely at higher levels.

Note that i am not an expert when it comes to pathfinder. I have a lot of the books but i still have yet to create a character or play a game. This is just idea for how to improve this so we can have more people enjoy a game that is worth enjoying.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

.

Player 1: Is everything okay with Irekel over there? He looks seriously constipated.
Player 2: Nah, he's fine. He's just repacking his buffer.
Player 1: ( ゚Д゚)

the way i think of it is less constipated and more "smoking/steaming", something most normal people Don't do on a regular basis.


45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA


I moved internal buffer to 1st level and had it increase at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. Burn in the buffer is treated as burn possessed by the kineticist for the purpose of overflow.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matrix Dragon wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer
He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA

It's definitely gotta' be loud and flashy. Thems' tha' rules!


christos gurd wrote:
I moved internal buffer to 1st level and had it increase at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. Burn in the buffer is treated as burn possessed by the kineticist for the purpose of overflow.

So... at 20th level she fills up her buffer one day, and as long as she never spends any points from her buffer, she maintains at least a +5 to attack/+10 to damage, 25% critical hit/sneak attack miss chance, a +4 size bonus to one ability score of her choice and a +2 size bonus to the other two?

With this, she can spend 4 - 5 points to increase the strength of her defense (or more if she chooses) meaning she's now got +6/+12 to hit/damage, 5xher burn in miss chance vs criticals/sneak attack and a +6 to one ability score, +4 to another, and +2 to the third?


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"At 20th level"

Nobody plays at 20th level. Everything sounds way better than it really is if you assume 20th.


Tels wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
I moved internal buffer to 1st level and had it increase at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. Burn in the buffer is treated as burn possessed by the kineticist for the purpose of overflow.

So... at 20th level she fills up her buffer one day, and as long as she never spends any points from her buffer, she maintains at least a +5 to attack/+10 to damage, 25% critical hit/sneak attack miss chance, a +4 size bonus to one ability score of her choice and a +2 size bonus to the other two?

With this, she can spend 4 - 5 points to increase the strength of her defense (or more if she chooses) meaning she's now got +6/+12 to hit/damage, 5xher burn in miss chance vs criticals/sneak attack and a +6 to one ability score, +4 to another, and +2 to the third?

correct, although I forgot to mention the internal buffer is automatically depleted before they can take regular burn.


Rynjin wrote:

"At 20th level"

Nobody plays at 20th level. Everything sounds way better than it really is if you assume 20th.

This doesn't really apply as the ability scales with the players level.

At 3rd level, you are getting +1 to hit/+2 to damage for free.

At 6th level, you are getting +2 to hit/+4 to damage for free.

At 10th level, you are getting +3 to hit/+6 to damage, +2 size bonus to two ability scores (+10 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), and a 15% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks.

At 15th level you are getting +4 to hit/+8 to damage, +2 to two ability scores (+15 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), +20% miss chance.

At 20th level, you get +5 to hit/+8 to damage, +4 to one ability score, +2 to two others (+40 hp/+2 fort save, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC or +20 hp/+1 fort, +2 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), 25% miss chance.

In addition to the above, you can, reasonably, top off Overflow each day by spending additional burn on your defenses. This means with only a few 'actual' burn points taken, you are bumping yourself up to the +6/+4/+2 ability score bonus of Elemental Overflow, while also drastically increasing your miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks and bumping your Kinetic Defense.

For example, an 11th level Geokinetic could have his 3 buffer points, and then spend another 5 bumping up his defense to DR 8/adamantine. Doing so grants him +3 hit/+6 damage, +4 to con, +2 dex and +2 to strength, and a 25% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks. He's taken a total of 2 burn (-22 hp) but also bumped his con by +4 (+22 hp) so he's at a net loss of 0 HP, but gained quite a bit of bonuses in doing so.


christos gurd wrote:
Tels wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
I moved internal buffer to 1st level and had it increase at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. Burn in the buffer is treated as burn possessed by the kineticist for the purpose of overflow.

So... at 20th level she fills up her buffer one day, and as long as she never spends any points from her buffer, she maintains at least a +5 to attack/+10 to damage, 25% critical hit/sneak attack miss chance, a +4 size bonus to one ability score of her choice and a +2 size bonus to the other two?

With this, she can spend 4 - 5 points to increase the strength of her defense (or more if she chooses) meaning she's now got +6/+12 to hit/damage, 5xher burn in miss chance vs criticals/sneak attack and a +6 to one ability score, +4 to another, and +2 to the third?

correct, although I forgot to mention the internal buffer is automatically depleted before they can take regular burn.

So you have to deplete the internal buffer, depleting your elemental overflow and forcing another rewrite of your character sheet, before you can accumulate regular burn, which then buffs your elemental overflow again, making you use your older sheet with overflow/rewriting your sheet again.

That's very, very clunky. I imagine many/most people would find it too much of a hassle to play with.


Rynjin wrote:

"At 20th level"

Nobody plays at 20th level. Everything sounds way better than it really is if you assume 20th.

We'll "most don't play at 20th level". Personally I think the game should work on all levels since it will be played on all levels. Though, I am fine with the game changing how it's played at different levels.


Tels wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Tels wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
I moved internal buffer to 1st level and had it increase at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter. Burn in the buffer is treated as burn possessed by the kineticist for the purpose of overflow.

So... at 20th level she fills up her buffer one day, and as long as she never spends any points from her buffer, she maintains at least a +5 to attack/+10 to damage, 25% critical hit/sneak attack miss chance, a +4 size bonus to one ability score of her choice and a +2 size bonus to the other two?

With this, she can spend 4 - 5 points to increase the strength of her defense (or more if she chooses) meaning she's now got +6/+12 to hit/damage, 5xher burn in miss chance vs criticals/sneak attack and a +6 to one ability score, +4 to another, and +2 to the third?

correct, although I forgot to mention the internal buffer is automatically depleted before they can take regular burn.

So you have to deplete the internal buffer, depleting your elemental overflow and forcing another rewrite of your character sheet, before you can accumulate regular burn, which then buffs your elemental overflow again, making you use your older sheet with overflow/rewriting your sheet again.

That's very, very clunky. I imagine many/most people would find it too much of a hassle to play with.

eh my player just treats its as a temporary penalty anyways that decreases as burn accumulates. Also we really didn't find it OP overall for the player but I didn't exactly audit how optimized his character was.


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Tels wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

"At 20th level"

Nobody plays at 20th level. Everything sounds way better than it really is if you assume 20th.

This doesn't really apply as the ability scales with the players level.

At 3rd level, you are getting +1 to hit/+2 to damage for free.

At 6th level, you are getting +2 to hit/+4 to damage for free.

At 10th level, you are getting +3 to hit/+6 to damage, +2 size bonus to two ability scores (+10 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), and a 15% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks.

At 15th level you are getting +4 to hit/+8 to damage, +2 to two ability scores (+15 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), +20% miss chance.

At 20th level, you get +5 to hit/+8 to damage, +4 to one ability score, +2 to two others (+40 hp/+2 fort save, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC or +20 hp/+1 fort, +2 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), 25% miss chance.

In addition to the above, you can, reasonably, top off Overflow each day by spending additional burn on your defenses. This means with only a few 'actual' burn points taken, you are bumping yourself up to the +6/+4/+2 ability score bonus of Elemental Overflow, while also drastically increasing your miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks and bumping your Kinetic Defense.

For example, an 11th level Geokinetic could have his 3 buffer points, and then spend another 5 bumping up his defense to DR 8/adamantine. Doing so grants him +3 hit/+6 damage, +4 to con, +2 dex and +2 to strength, and a 25% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks. He's taken a total of 2 burn (-22 hp) but also bumped his con by +4 (+22 hp) so he's at a net loss of 0 HP, but gained quite a bit of bonuses in doing so.

Yes, most classes have features they can use that are useful pretty much all day. What's your point?

Fighters, even, get that +5 to-hit and +8 damage at 20th level (plus automatically confirm crits, and have DR, etc., etc.) all day long.

Alchemists are getting a +4 to any stat and +2 Natural armor, plus 25% fortification (Preserve Organs) at like 4th.

By 12th they're rocking +6 to one stat, +4 to another, +4 Natural Armor, 25% Fortification, Immunity to Sleep, Paralysis, Cold, and Nonlethal (Mummification), and a host of other abilities, on top of spellcasting, on top of their own "Blast".

By 16th they have all that, except the stat bonuses are +8 to one, +6 to another, and +4 to a third, and +8 Natural Armor. And it's nw an hour/level so you can't even use the "Yeah but what if you have a 26 hour adventuring day" excuse.

And by 20th it's +8 to all stats. And that is 4/10 Discoveries (not counting the ones provided by Extra Discovery, which is also hands down better than Extra Wild Talent) Spending three more gets him something nice like a PERMANENT Displacement via Eternal potion (at 16th), which he can trade out any time he wants to drink a new potion, and which he can do effectively for free with Alchemical Allocation.

Letting the Kineticist get the benefit of his class features is not a bad thing. It's the same as every other frickin' class.


Rynjin wrote:
Tels wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

"At 20th level"

Nobody plays at 20th level. Everything sounds way better than it really is if you assume 20th.

This doesn't really apply as the ability scales with the players level.

At 3rd level, you are getting +1 to hit/+2 to damage for free.

At 6th level, you are getting +2 to hit/+4 to damage for free.

At 10th level, you are getting +3 to hit/+6 to damage, +2 size bonus to two ability scores (+10 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), and a 15% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks.

At 15th level you are getting +4 to hit/+8 to damage, +2 to two ability scores (+15 hp/+1 fort, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), +20% miss chance.

At 20th level, you get +5 to hit/+8 to damage, +4 to one ability score, +2 to two others (+40 hp/+2 fort save, +1 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC or +20 hp/+1 fort, +2 range attack/Reflex/initiative/dex skills/AC), 25% miss chance.

In addition to the above, you can, reasonably, top off Overflow each day by spending additional burn on your defenses. This means with only a few 'actual' burn points taken, you are bumping yourself up to the +6/+4/+2 ability score bonus of Elemental Overflow, while also drastically increasing your miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks and bumping your Kinetic Defense.

For example, an 11th level Geokinetic could have his 3 buffer points, and then spend another 5 bumping up his defense to DR 8/adamantine. Doing so grants him +3 hit/+6 damage, +4 to con, +2 dex and +2 to strength, and a 25% miss chance vs criticals and sneak attacks. He's taken a total of 2 burn (-22 hp) but also bumped his con by +4 (+22 hp) so he's at a net loss of 0 HP, but gained quite a bit of bonuses in doing so.

Yes, most classes have features they can use that are useful pretty much all day. What's your point?

Fighters, even, get that +5 to-hit and +8 damage at 20th level (plus automatically confirm crits, and have DR, etc., etc.)...

The Kineticist gets to make use of his abilities just fine. I don't see the problem here. It's like you guys are trying to give the Kineticist the same DPR as a Fast Hands, TWF/Rapid Shot bomber alchemist, but also let him be able to to that all day, without taking burn. Oh, and if he does take burn, he can just clear it away, or reduce it, so he's really not taking any sort of penalty or loss.

At that point, why not just make a Wizard with a house rule that Wizards never run out of spells?

House ruling, or changing things to tweak it so it works better here and there is one thing, but the suggestions I'm see in this thread are more likely to break the Kineticist, then make it better.


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Have you even looked at the numbers?

The Kineticist is, at best, doing all day DPR roughly equal to what most other class can pull. That's if he's using a Physical Blast.

If he's using an Energy Blast, he's doing roughly HALF the expected DPR at any given level.

Mind you, those numbers are assuming an Empowered Composite Blast, something that takes 3 burn to perform (1 with Supercharge in play), and can only be done for free on reaching 11th level. Before 11th, the Kineticist is taking 2 with each shot.

The Kineticist needs Burn to reach AVERAGE, not excel (or achieve well below average in the case of Energy Blasts). That's why people want Burn mitigation. The class' damage output is a JOKE without Burn, and on par with other classes at best WITH it.

(The comparison spot here being a fairly unoptimized Inquisitor I whipped up in 5 minutes for another thread. Physical Blasts achieved roughly equal to the buffed Inquisitor with Empowered Composites, using only buffs he could use in about 6 combats per day, maybe more, and the Energy Blasts...hit the damage of the UNBUFFED Inquisitor using Empowered Composite Blasts. This using a Kineticist with ALL of his Feats tied up in making him better at combat, while the Inquisitor spent half of his Feats on stuff I like, like Improved Monster Lore. That's just sad.)

That's not what a limited resource (that leaves you debilitated for the rest of the day when you dip into it) should do. If the limited resource is making you average rather than excellent, it shouldn't be limited

The Kineticist has nowhere near the utility of a Wizard. The Kineticist barely has as much utility as a RANGER. The Kineticist is a wanna-be Martial wanna-be caster.

Making Burn not suck big fat donkey balls at least makes him decent at the former role.

And hell, the ship has already sailed regardless. Kinetic Blade is COMPLETELY FREE when you get your first Infusion Specialization, and deals superior damage to even the Empowered Composite Blasts per round.


45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer

Maybe a better idea, is to rewrite Internal Buffer so that once per day, you can set your Internal Buffer equal to your maximum Gather Power (Full Round + Move) by using Gather Power on it. It gives you, even from beginning levels, 3 "free" burn per day.

Personally, having been playing the Kineticist for awhile now, I don't think this rule is needed, but it would make things a lot easier without throwing balance too far out the window. While admittedly, stopping for a half hour after every encounter, is a balancing against the free burn you're granting, I get a feeling that the potential 40+ burn you could gain from that over a day would be a bit too much.


Rynjin wrote:


The Kineticist needs Burn to reach AVERAGE, not excel (or achieve well below average in the case of Energy Blasts). That's why people want Burn mitigation. The class' damage output is a JOKE without Burn, and on par with other classes at best WITH it.

I honestly have no idea what sort of game you're in, or what sort of characters there are, but in the games I play and have been in, this is completely false.

I play in a game with a Paladin Warrior of the Holy Light, Unchained Monk, Druid Pack Lord (House Ruled for more companion levels), Prankster Bard Gnome Illusionist, and a Skirmisher/Wild Hunter Ranger.

Of them all, I have the easiest time regularly pumping out static amounts of high damage. The Paladin can outshine me vs evil (Smite), against anything he gets into melee with, the Monk who tries to flank with the Paladin (giving them both better damage) can do a bit more damage than me, but that's really all either of them do. We're all level 6 and I'm doing 3d6+11 damage with a better hit-chance than they have (I have a stealth high enough to benefit from Sniping rules, and flat-foot AC), and typically more total damage per combat than either of them. And I rarely use Burn since I can only spare 4 per day and tend to reserve it for tight spots.

My typical attack is: +12/3d6+11
The Paladin's (Smiting) is: +13/1d8+16; +8/1d8+16 (Admittedly, he uses a Longsword and Shield)
The Monk is: +11/1d8+3; +11/1d8+3; +6/1d8+3
The Ranger's bow is: +12/1d8+2; +7/1d8+2
The Druid Catfolk uses her Natural Attacks is: +8/1d4+4; +8/1d4+4

Now, I realize we are not the most optimized group in the world, after all it's known that WotHL is one of the weakest Archetypes for Paladin, and our druid pretty much acts like a monk without monk training. :P But the point remains... right now the average AC is around 20, meaning that:
I tend to have a target of about 18 (Flat-foot) for a 6+ ToHit (75%). That's roughly a 16 DPR.
The Paladin is at 70% and 45% for roughly a 25 DPR (He's our best hitter).
The Monk a DPR of about 11 (but he has Step Up and Strike which gives him even more damage).
The Ranger at 65% and 40% for a DPR of about 20 (Manyshot).
The Druid is our weakest, but she brings companions to the table which raises her DPR a lot, roughly 6 w/out companions, but easily twice that with her companions for 12 DPR roughly.

Me: 16
Paladin: 25 (a lot lower when not smiting)
Monk: 11+
Ranger: 20
Druid: 12

The Bard doesn't count, he refuses to even carry a weapon and relies on illusions.

From my point of view, I'm doing really really well DPR without touching my burn. More importantly though, since I'm the guy that gets the spotlight during traps, and obstacles due to my TK, my biggest concern would be that my fellow players would see me as far too powerful (if they don't already) since I can fly (none of them can fly), have mega skills (particularly in Stealth and Disable Device, as well as Sleight of Hand), can lift hundreds of points (thousand with burn) allowing my to not only fly chests out of trap zones, but then let them step into the chest and move it through the air. Players are always looking at me going, "Really? You can do that?" and perusing the book when it's not their turn.

I can't imagine how unbalanced they'd feel I was if burn was made so ineffective, or damage was increased. Admittedly, I played an Air Wizard before, with almost no damage to speak of, so maybe it's my own perceptions that have changed and I'm just reading into their comments more than intended, but I honestly feel like I'm more than powerful enough without needing to mitigate burn.


Your Monk should be whipping your ass. He's not just "not the most optimized", he seems terribly built. 1d8+3 at 6th level? Same with the Ranger.

Has nobody in your party heard of Power Attack or Deadly Aim?


Sure they have... but 1) They're 6th level, and there are better things to pick up such as the tier which allows the Monk to "Step up and strike". and 2) That's a -5% for an increase of +2 to damage. For it to just equal-out (as opposed to being a bonus), each -5% needs to equal out to the damage gained.

If you're doing 1d8+3 (averaging 7.5 damage per hit) with +11/+11/+6 against an AC of 20, equating to 55%, 55%, 30%, the difference in DPR is 7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.30 (10.5) vs 7.5*0.5 + 7.5*0.5 + 7.5*0.25 (9.4). That's not equaling out, that's a reduction in DPR by 1.1


It's -2/+4 at 6th, and most Monks should be rocking Dragon Style/Ferocity which ups his damage by 3 on the first hit, and 1 on the 2nd for no penalty, and turns his Power Attack to -2/+6.

Regardless of which, Step Up and Strike isn't even available to the Monk yet. Not getting into how useful or not it is.

Having a hard time figuring out his to-hit too. Guessing he's a gimpy Dex build (Dex to-hit, Str for damage). Going Dex to damage would shoot his damage up quite a bit too.

All of this kind of misses the point anyway.

Your Kineticist meets (or exceeds by a very small amount) the damage output of four VERY low optimization characters. And a Kineticist deals about the same damage ouput (Kinetic Blade notwithstanding) regardless of optimization level.

That's bad.

Edit: And let's see, your Ranger seems to have been gypped out of an attack...you say he's using Manyshot, but I don't see his Rapid Shot attack in there. Assuming those attack numbers are accurate when he's using Manyshot, that's +12 (Double Damage)/+12/+7 as his attack sequence. More vs Favored Enemy.

I'm also still trying to figure out how Step Up and Strike (were it even a legal Feat for him to have, since he can't take Step Up and Strike as one of his Monk Bonus feats so couldn't get it until 7th) is reliably increasing your Monk's damage. Does every enemy you face randomly 5 ft. step away from the Monk for no reason?

TL;DR: We shouldn't be balancing a class for the players who don't know how to make full use of their characters.


Sphynx wrote:

Sure they have... but 1) They're 6th level, and there are better things to pick up such as the tier which allows the Monk to "Step up and strike". and 2) That's a -5% for an increase of +2 to damage. For it to just equal-out (as opposed to being a bonus), each -5% needs to equal out to the damage gained.

If you're doing 1d8+3 (averaging 7.5 damage per hit) with +11/+11/+6 against an AC of 20, equating to 55%, 55%, 30%, the difference in DPR is 7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.30 (10.5) vs 7.5*0.5 + 7.5*0.5 + 7.5*0.25 (9.4). That's not equaling out, that's a reduction in DPR by 1.1

Oops, messed up on math, was in a meeting, so wasn't paying enough attention.

7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.55 + 7.5*0.30 (10.5)
vs
9.5*0.5 + 9.5*0.5 + 9.5*0.25 (11.9)

That makes more sense, a +1.4 increase to DPR. Still not enough to make it worth it at that stage when he instead focused on Step Up and Strike.


I'm still curious about that. Is that a houserule, or did he not know he can't take it?


Rynjin wrote:
We shouldn't be balancing a class for the players who don't know how to make full use of their characters.

Shouldn't we? You keep saying things about "not even trying", but then say we shouldn't balance against those that aren't trying? I realize that compared to an optimized character, none of us are doing the greatest damage, but we are doing well vs the CR related to our levels, and as I'm personally "not even trying", using Burn only for Empower and the occasional 6k lbs lifting, I'm doing very well.

As for the monk (hopefully without derailing too much), his focus has never been to pour out the damage, but rather mobility on the battlefield, forcing flank bonuses, avoiding AoOs, and when possible, pressuring the ranged combatants, in particular MUs and archers, who yes... try to avoid melee combat (and yes we realize that he shouldn't have it til 7th level, but our GM is level-friendly on Feats since we tend to play only low-level games).


You're really not doing well against things of your CR though. It takes you like 4 rounds to kill a CR 6 opponent. And 3 for a CR 5. That's assuming that 3d6+11 is a Touch Blast. Longer if it's Physical.

Your allies take like twice that. One must imagine your combats are insanely long in any combat involving multiple opponents. You should be dispatching every opponent on the board in 3 to 4 rounds. Most of your party falls well below that average metric.

And no, you never balance to the lowest common denominator. You balance to the middle. Doing otherwise results in either a shallow game that discourages system mastery, or a dense game that alienates newbies and casual players.


I came up in the middle, so I'm comfortable. I'm very curious as to see what other "optimized" characters look like though, it would be interesting to compare characters and see if either I'm just wrong on their DPR (which I calculated more than related from experience), or if there really are ways to improve upon them. The trouble is finding a level 6 optimized character for each class. :/


Ravingdork wrote:
Matrix Dragon wrote:
45ur4 wrote:
A very simple house rule we use is that Gathering Power for half an hour can be used to refill Internal Buffer
He has to yell like in Dragonball Z the entire time, right? HAAAAAAAAAAAA
It's definitely gotta' be loud and flashy. Thems' tha' rules!

It is indeed!!!

@Sphynx, we usually have 4 encounters per day, using two hours per day. Utilities are still out, because Gather Power cost reduction is for blasts only

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Are people assuming that a party should be killing a CR equivalent monster in a single round?

Because

A) That sounds like people don't really want to interact with combat at all. Apparently even two rounds of combat is too many, or they assume epic level encounters are the norm? In which case, you're getting into Rocket Tag territory long before the level 12+ range where they become most prevalent.

Or

B) People's expectations of base level of ability are vastly over-inflated by optimization and theorycrafting on the boards.

I for one rarely build a character entirely around damage per round, and most players I play with don't either. A kineticist dealing 3d6+5 (15.5 average) damage per round at level 6 is pretty good, with the option to bring a bit more punch occasionally by taking burn to deal 3d6+6 (x1.5) (21 average). Between myself, my allies and whatever buffs, spells or boosts we use in a fight, I'd expect to face between 5-8 encounters in a day (mix of CR equivalent, below CR equivalent and above CR equivalent) without a rest, and even 10 if we pace ourselves.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:

Have you even looked at the numbers?

The Kineticist is, at best, doing all day DPR roughly equal to what most other class can pull. That's if he's using a Physical Blast.

If he's using an Energy Blast, he's doing roughly HALF the expected DPR at any given level.

Would you mind linking your source? The fact that energy damage hits touch AC indicates that it would likely do MORE damage as it would hit far more often.


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But wouldn't the fact they deal half the damage a Physical Blast does, have to deal with energy resistance and immunity*, in addition to possibly being negated by Spell Resistance mean the Energy Blasts are less reliable?

*Im aware of the ways around resistance and immunities to energy damage.

Scarab Sages

Azten wrote:

But wouldn't the fact they deal half the damage a Physical Blast does, have to deal with energy resistance and immunity*, in addition to possibly being negated by Spell Resistance mean the Energy Blasts are less reliable?

*Im aware of the ways around resistance and immunities to energy damage.

They don't do half the damage a physical blast does though. They add half of the modifiers that physical blasts do, but that leaves them at about 2/3rd of the damage of a physical blast. Energy resistance and DR are a wash, although immunity is a problem for non-elemental foes.


My mistake, I was thinking of Composite Blasts.


Ravingdork wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Have you even looked at the numbers?

The Kineticist is, at best, doing all day DPR roughly equal to what most other class can pull. That's if he's using a Physical Blast.

If he's using an Energy Blast, he's doing roughly HALF the expected DPR at any given level.

Would you mind linking your source? The fact that energy damage hits touch AC indicates that it would likely do MORE damage as it would hit far more often.

As Azten said, they do SIGNIFICANTLY less damage. Half Con, and 1 lower damage per die. The difference becomes more noticeable when Composite Blasts come into play and you have something like 12d6+10 vs 12d6+36.

Back of the napkin math in this thread somewhere, on the last page or second to last.

Can't remember where I got all my numbers though at this point. Some guy was saying I had 5 damage too many and my math was off but I couldn't really dispute him because the assumptions I was making as far as Feats and whatnot had already slipped my mind.

Edit: Remember now, he didn't add the 2d6+2, only 2d6+1.


Azten wrote:
My mistake, I was thinking of Composite Blasts.

11th level physical blast deals 12d6+12+con in damage, average of 54+con.

11th level energy blast deals 12d6+1/2con in damage, average of 42+1/2con.

Not seeing the 'half damage' for composite blasts either.

I think people are just too focused on making the Kineticist have the same damage output as a Fast Bombs Alchemist, except able to do it all day long.


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It's 12d6+24 plus full Con vs 12d6+1/2 Con, Tels. Physical Composite Blasts increase by 2d6+2. Making those numbers (assuming 26/+8 Con) 74 vs 46. Not quite half, but little over 1/3 less damage.

Edit: NVM, I goofed here pretty big.

So they both suck equally.

Tels wrote:


I think people are just too focused on making the Kineticist have the same damage output as a Fast Bombs Alchemist, except able to do it all day long.

I've already told you this is wrong, so you can stop saying it now.

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