Bard vs. Wizard

[Yoshu Uhsoy]

1 More fun

2 More versatile

3 More powerful

4 Buffer

5 Controller

6 Debuffer

7 Blaster

[Anarchy_Kanya]

What?

[Deighton Thrane]

Wizard, except for 1, which is a tie. Bard's better able to draw a weapon and fight an enemy though.

[Avoron]

1 Depends on player

2 Wizard, but Arcanist is better than either.

3 Wizard

4 Depends on party composition

5 Wizard

6 Wizard

7 Wizard

[Yoshu Uhsoy]

Anarchy_Kanya wrote:

What?

What are you confused about?

[Nigrescence]

Bard goes in every field.

[Dragonchess Player]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

Wizard, except for 1, which is a tie. Bard's better able to draw a weapon and fight an enemy though.

Only if talking single-classed characters. If including multi-classed and prestige class characters, then the wizard can probably fight better than the bard in higher level play ([fighter or ranger] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8 ends up with +17 BAB and spell progression of a 17th level wizard; barbarian 2/sorcerer 1/wizard 3/dragon disciple* 4/eldritch knight 10 ends up with BAB +16 and spell progression of a 15th level wizard*, plus rage bonuses to Str and Con in melee combat and Moment of Clarity to cast in rage if necessary).

I mostly agree with Avoron, but IMO:

1. Player preference
2. Wizard (much bigger, better, wider spell list, other than healing; plus, you can switch out/tailor your spell selection for the expected circumstances, or even leave slots open to select later, hopefully with Fast Study)
3. Wizard (see 2.)
4. Bard (the bard is one of the best buffers)
5. Wizard (can target more saves/types of opponents)
6. Wizard
7. Wizard (the bard has pretty anemic options for blasting; even sound strikers)

*- Note, you don't have to advance sorcerer spell progression as dragon disciple.

[Ragoz]

1. Up to the player
2-7. Wizard

I think the only real advantage of 6th level spellcasters vs 9th level casters are using normal metamagic rods instead of greater to achieve similar effects. It means the character has more money for other resources.

Also as for the buffer role while bard is decent at it I can say the best buffer I've played with was a Wizard (technically mystic theurge) in PFS. He could cast Marionette Possession and take control of your body then use a bunch of personal targeted buffs to make you amazing. Mighty Strength +8 str bonus feels good man.

[Create Mr. Pitt]

1. Depends on what you want. 4. Goes to bard, depending on party type; but otherwise it is always wizard (even over arcanist for versatility).

6. Would go to witch or shaman; but wizard over bard.

[Avoron]

Create Mr. Pitt:
Just out of curiosity, what makes you put wizard above arcanist for buffing purposes? Arcanist, for the most part, is about as strong mechanically, and I find that it's often frustrating as a wizard to prepare buffing spells and not get enough time before a combat to use them, or to not have enough prepared when buffing is really important.
And School Savant gives arcanists a lot of the perks of being a wizard, although Brown-Fur Transmuter is an excellent alternative for focusing on polymorph.
Maybe if you want to dump Charisma, I guess. Or maybe it's worth it to qualify for Annihilation Spectacles.
What's your reasoning?

[Create Mr. Pitt]

More resources into INT leads more spells and stronger DCs. The extra flexibility and slots give the wizard the ability to be the more versatile buffer for the party. And an incredible defensive buffer for him or herself.

As a self-buffing for offensive purposes Brown-Fur Transmuter is better.

Conjuration, however, makes a particularly effective buffer though (setting aside just the normal buff); eventually you can summon bards, clerics, enchanter types; with summoner's charm far before battle.

[Dragonchess Player]

Ragoz wrote:

Also as for the buffer role while bard is decent at it I can say the best buffer I've played with was a Wizard (technically mystic theurge) in PFS. He could cast Marionette Possession and take control of your body then use a bunch of personal targeted buffs to make you amazing. Mighty Strength +8 str bonus feels good man.

Sure, the mystic theurge with the access to the cleric spell list (cleric being one of the other best buffers) can buff better than the bard. Guess what, it buffs a lot better than the single-classed wizard, too.

[Atarlost]

Avoron wrote:

Create Mr. Pitt:

Just out of curiosity, what makes you put wizard above arcanist for buffing purposes? Arcanist, for the most part, is about as strong mechanically, and I find that it's often frustrating as a wizard to prepare buffing spells and not get enough time before a combat to use them, or to not have enough prepared when buffing is really important.
And School Savant gives arcanists a lot of the perks of being a wizard, although Brown-Fur Transmuter is an excellent alternative for focusing on polymorph.
Maybe if you want to dump Charisma, I guess. Or maybe it's worth it to qualify for Annihilation Spectacles.
What's your reasoning?

I'm not Mr. Pitt, but I'm going to take a wild guess and say that half of all levels between 3 and 18 the wizard has higher level spells than the arcanist and that pearls of power are half the price of runestones and if you're casting multiple instances of a spell you either have time to mess around with them in between or need the communal or mass version. It tends to be clear which buffs you're likely to need to learn or prepare mass/communal versions of from looking at the spell list so you're not likely to wind up with the wrong variant prepared. They say "target: single touched" and provide some benefit useful to multiple party members.

[Cavall]

Gets the ladies? Bard. Nothing beats that.

Besides anything the wizard can do the bard can make others believe he did.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

1 Bard

2 Bard

3 Wizard

4 Even

5 Wizard

6 Even

7 Wizard

I think Bard gets underestimated a lot. Bard plays the low, mid, and high level game well. Wizard can struggle in the low game, is competitive in the mid game, and rules the high end game for the most part.

[Ragoz]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Sure, the mystic theurge with the access to the cleric spell list (cleric being one of the other best buffers) can buff better than the bard. Guess what, it buffs a lot better than the single-classed wizard, too.

That Marionette Possession trick is amazing on even the wizard only list. There are countless personal spells which make party members much stronger because the spells are normally a bit more limited being restricted to the wizard himself.

[Charon's Little Helper]

1. Bard

2-7: Depends upon the level.

So often - people assume that you're always talking about level 18+. For the first few levels the bard wins hands down in every category sans perhaps blaster. (depending upon how broadly you define it)

[strayshift]

Spam stuff? Sorcerer, oh sorry, Bard...

Spontaneous caster (you know it's best) with loads of spells known? Bard.

'Skills' (should have been on the O.P.'s original list) - Bard again (eventually).

Healing... Bard yet again, yes I know it's not as sexy as action economy stuff.

Somehow less of a target for the BBG most of the time? Why that would be the bard...

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

*You see a old wizard who has lived thousands of years*

"I'm so sorry youngster it is hard to hear you up here in Tier 1 classes. You Have far to climb to be better than anything I do."

*You see him wave his finger and a new plane springs into existence and your transported there*

"Sing your way out of that."

[My Self]

The wizard ends up pretty close to the Bard with skills, too. Turns out a +13 to INT with 2 skill points/level could pull ahead of +3 to INT with 6 skill points/level (and 5 bonus skills). It'll also end up even with the Bardic Knowledge bonus (unless you're a Catfolk).