I dont even see the point of discussing killing great dragons. They are NOT the dragons we see in the bestiaries.
A bunch of them are survivors of an age where horrors nearly destroyed the planet, and did so a second and maybe a third time. So if you would put them in terms of PF rules, they all are ancient dragons with at least 10 levels of mythic and 15-20 levels of a spellcaster class.
They were regular ancient dragons BEFORE earthdawn's setting, some of those dragons are over 20 thousand years old, with all the knowledge and power that follows.
SR Great Dragons are ridiculously powerful by SR standards, but they're not shown as capable of the shenanigans that high level PF casters can pull.
Yes and no, the spells themselves maybe not.
But they can do things that no spells (as far as i know) in pathfinder can do, such as pulling themselves back from the dead by willpower.Or creating their own spirit realms (in PF we could say thats a create demiplane spell).
But things like wish or meteor shower is simply never seen.
Some things are simply not possible (yet) in shadowrun, like teleporting, not until the mana levels are high enough. But a lot of PF spells can be seen in earthdawn (which we can ignore or not on this conversation).
If we take a look at some horror sheets in the earthdawn setting, and consider that shadowmountain has survived for centuries against those guys, in their own realm...Yeah, he has a bunch of mythic levels to pull that off, or balls of steel.
SR Great Dragons are ridiculously powerful by SR standards, but they're not shown as capable of the shenanigans that high level PF casters can pull.Yes and no, the spells themselves maybe not.
But they can do things that no spells (as far as i know) in pathfinder can do, such as pulling themselves back from the dead by willpower.Or creating their own spirit realms (in PF we could say thats a create demiplane spell).
But things like wish or meteor shower is simply never seen.
Some things are simply not possible (yet) in shadowrun, like teleporting, not until the mana levels are high enough. But a lot of PF spells can be seen in earthdawn (which we can ignore or not on this conversation).
If we take a look at some horror sheets in the earthdawn setting, and consider that shadowmountain has survived for centuries against those guys, in their own realm...Yeah, he has a bunch of mythic levels to pull that off, or balls of steel.
I am going to go in the strange and unpopular direction and say that we have already seen these spells in the books. I would argue that these spells are cast faaaaaaaaaaaaaar off screen and in the background and that when they are used it causes strange things to happen.
I dont even see the point of discussing killing great dragons. They are NOT the dragons we see in the bestiaries.
They are all survivors of an age where horrors nearly destroyed the planet, and did so a second and maybe a third time. So if you would put them in terms of PF rules, they all are ancient dragons with at least 10 levels of mythic and 15-20 levels of a spellcaster class.
They were regular ancient dragons BEFORE earthdawn's setting, some of those dragons are over 20 thousand years old, with all the knowledge and power that follows.I think the question is: Are we sticking PF power scale characters into the SR setting as is or are we scaling the SR setting up to match the power levels of the PF system?
SR Great Dragons are ridiculously powerful by SR standards, but they're not shown as capable of the shenanigans that high level PF casters can pull. Much less PF Ancient Dragon + 20th level caster + 10 tiers of Mythic.
Same for the other high end SR stuff - whether corps or characters.Which is why my initial suggestion was to work off of an E6 PF baseline. Limit the PF style characters to a power level more appropriate to SR characters. Then you don't have to scale everything else up to match.
But it looks like the actual conversion discussion has gone off in another direction anyway - rewriting d20 style rules to more closely match SR.
I'm not a huge fan of E6 philosophy mainly because I don't think realism has much of a place in these games. Shadowrun can be just as fantastic as any fantasy setting, especially when you get to bug city and similar adventures/scenarios.
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I guess we can include different playstyles in the book.
Classic: The closest thing to the old SR power scale (something along the lines of E6)
Street Level: Same as above, but wimpier.
Prime: Same as the two above, but more badass.
Epic: Pathfinder's power scale / power curve. You start out sub-Street Level, and gradually ascend to near-demigod levels.
Just a basic outline, this isn't exactly what we are gonna use.
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I had a thought:
Under the Arcana advancement tree, should there be anything regarding Bloodlines, Schools and/or Disciplines? Or in the case of Divine stuff, Faiths and Mysteries (Like Clerics/Paladins and Oracles respectively)?
Personally, I like to incorporate options upon options upon options, that way as long as a player does not exceed their advancement budget, they can make as diverse or unique a character as they want.
I'm all for it, but this will require some research on your part. The schools of magic in shadowrun were ill defined as everything from I ching to Judeo Christian prayer worked with respect to arcane magic, and totems had their bans and boons with respect to priestly magic.
I guess we can include different playstyles in the book.
Classic: The closest thing to the old SR power scale (something along the lines of E6)
Street Level: Same as above, but wimpier.
Prime: Same as the two above, but more badass.
Epic: Pathfinder's power scale / power curve. You start out sub-Street Level, and gradually ascend to near-demigod levels.Just a basic outline, this isn't exactly what we are gonna use.
My suggestions:
Classic: Caps at level 11, start at level 5
Street: Caps at level 8, start at level 3
Prime: Caps at level 14, start at level 7
Epic: Caps at level 17, start at level 1
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I have been looking for more ways to increase character diversity. While this wouldn't work in a classless system, I found this interesting document.
What do you guys think?
I'm not a fan of gestalt classes due to poor experience. Shadowrun also frowns on them, or has in the past. Still, if you think you can make it work, go for it.
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I was also thinking if spell components should be diversified. Because of the presence of Psionics and Technomancers, I am thinking we should expand the list and introduce some level of transparency between Resonance, Psionics and Magic. Here is my list so far:
V: This spell has a verbal component. This usuall means it needs to be spoken aloud, though some spells can be written into text and cast just by being read. Fortunately, this requires magically receptive inks and canvases, so there won't be any "internet magic" anytime soon.
L: This spell has a Lingual component, meaning it is either language- or context-dependent. This is classified as a subset of Verbal, though like Verbal it can sometimes be written.
S: This spell has a Somatic component, meaning you often need to wave parts of your body around. This means if you are encumbered or wearing bulky armor, or if you are physically disabled in some way, then you might have some difficulty casting these types of spells.
M: This spell has material components (which you will have to carry around), which 9.99997 times out of 10 get consumed in the process of casting the spell.
E: This spell has an Elemental component, specifically referring to one of the five classical elements and not one of the 100+ atomic elements. If you want atomic elements, look in the realm of material components.
P: This spell has a Psionic component, a clear indication that the two are not mutually exclusive and that this spell requires a blending of external and internal energies.
T: This spell has a technological component, though that does not necessarily mean it is exclusive to Technomancers.
R: This spell operates on Resonance. This means only Technomancers and other individuals with Resonant abilities can cast it, but it still requires some extent of magical ability and thus is not a pure Resonance power.
D: This spell has a Divine or Spirital Component, and usually requires you to be on good terms with the deity or spirit in question.
F: This spell can be augmented through the use of a Focus, which eliminates the need for Divine or Material components.
X: This spell requires special components or conditions, or can be augmented through such. These will be listed in th spell's description, but usually involve something regarding sacrifices or something like that.
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You are going out of scope imho. The rule for a conversion is to keep it simple. And start with the basics, not with the details.
Rough first draft for the converted character creation
Character Creation
Statistics
Standard 6 Pathfinder stats. Use the Point buy with the following exceptions
All stats start at 10. 20 points to spend. You can't lower the stats. Each +1 in modifyer will be roughly equivalent of having 1 more point in the original system
Starting Gifts
To emulate the priority necessary to avoid casters being too predominant. Here are the rules.
You start playing with the choice of a major and a minor gift
Major gifts (chose one)
Powerfull Race (can play as a troll)
Born Perfect (+2 all stats)
Skill monkey (chose 4 skills, they are class skill and always maxed)
Money Maker (stat play with a powerfull Item, gets more gold from "lateral incomes" each time he levels up)
Powerfull Magician (can play as a Mystical Adept, Magician or Technomancer)
Minor Gifts (chose one)
Strong Race (can play as an Orc)
Good Genetics (+2 to a mental and physical stat)
Apted (chose 2 skills, they are class skill and always maxed)
Rich (start with a moderatly powerfull item)
Magician (can chose to play as an Adept or Aspected Magician)
Races are the standard Human, Dwarf, Elf, Orc and Troll
Classes are
Augmented (personalizable tech user, can be decker samurai ecc..)
Technomancer
Adept
Aspected Magician
Magician
Mystical Adept
Notes: unfortunatly given the differents rulesets for magic you need to have different classes to be able to distinguish their differents strengh and weaknesses. "Normal" people who used tech can use the same chassis and personalyze themself with equipments. Witch is exactly the same way it works in Shadowrun.
I'm not going to do a full skill list but here is the skill system I'm thinking of.
It will be like the original "number of successes" based, with each task having a standard DC. Beating it will give 1 success, and 1 more for each 10 you surpass it.
If a task require more successes, you can use the skills multiple times in usccession, with each roll taking an amount of time depending on the skill.
Failing will have no consequences unless you roll 10 less than the DC, in witch case you suffer a "fumble" with nefarious effects based on the skill (from subtacting successes to setting the allarm ecc.)
To approximte the Shadowrun math where 1 more dice is generally close to 50% more chance to succeed, each +1 modifier in the corresponding stats will grant you a +5 to the skill.
Class skill will grant 1 extra success when used correctly, but do not apply any modifier to the dice.
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@Dekalinder
I am beginning to see splinter factions with different philosophies regarding the direction of this conversion, which will inevitably lead to a civil war and end with the extermination of both sides.
The reason I am going the route that I am is because I want players to have lots of choices and to have very diverse characters, and since we're basing this on Pathfinder then it has the potential to allow even more races to choose from.
I guess we could use the same mould that made PTA and PTU, where there are two different versions of the same game; the more intricate thing that I am trying to create and the more streamlined thing that you are trying to make.
They can exist side by side.
If anyone is still interested, the thread for Interface Zero 2.0 for PF is here.
@Dekalinder
I am beginning to see splinter factions with different philosophies regarding the direction of this conversion, which will inevitably lead to a civil war and end with the extermination of both sides.
The reason I am going the route that I am is because I want players to have lots of choices and to have very diverse characters, and since we're basing this on Pathfinder then it has the potential to allow even more races to choose from.
I guess we could use the same mould that made PTA and PTU, where there are two different versions of the same game; the more intricate thing that I am trying to create and the more streamlined thing that you are trying to make.
You can add anything you want on that skeleton. More classes? Gauge their power and put them in the appropriate "cost" list. More races? same story, use the "gifts" as a LA substitute to allow powerfull races like Dragonborn who are not actually gimp or Drow without having to shred all their iconic stuff like pathfinder did to remove it. LA +1 can be in the same category as the Orc while LA +2 can go with the trolls.
I've gone this route to keep the conversion as close as possible with using the D20 mechanics. This gives you plenty of option and custumization. Complexity of option should not be confused with complexity of the underling mechanics. Keep the mechanics simple, and then add lots of stuffs to play with it around.
The concept is the same as the one in Magic. Make a simple rule anyone can easly learn. And then give someone a cool ability to do something else different. This way only those who chose that option have to "study" that rule while everybody else can go on having to learn only the simplier stuff.
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Well, I'm stumped. I cannot seem to figure out how to get vehicles to work on D20's movement system, since they have much higher speeds than people on foot (requiring larger maps and/or a denser grid) and direction doesn't seem to be relevant in D20 combat rules.
I am having a similar issue integrating Lightcycles into Processors and Programs.
What project are you working on first?
As I said it's been done.... All you need is Mutants & Masterminds (which is a D20 game) the Supernatural Handbook and the appropriate gadget guides Cybertech, Mecha(to a limited extent), Vehicles, Guns, Robots, Utility, Nano tech, Bio tech, Spy tech, Magic and Computers.
The M&M SRD - D20 Hero SRD.
Playtest rules here.
Not quite Shadowrun. I guess I'll take a look when I am no longer preoccupied with my other project.
Not quite, but it will provide a solid cyberpunk base to add to Pathfinder's existing races and magic system.
I was to play test p6 codex with the technology guide and bits from D20 modern.
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Don't listen to the above sourpuss.
Keep doing what you are doing, post some test mechanic when you can. I have found that people are more receptive when you have a test to display instead of asking for opinions, at least on this site.
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Check out the Hypercorps 2099 setting based on Pathfinder
Check out the Hypercorps 2099 setting based on Pathfinder
I just found this thread! Thank you for spreading the good word, Thanael! :D
My world doesn't have goblinization or Dunkelzahn, but you can get a solid peek at what IS there in the four free preview PDFs we made for the Hypercorps 2099 Kickstarter and I just finished the first stages of layout for two adventures which should hit the market next week, I think (the core books are going to layout before the month of January is over).
It's funny Because I'm looking to translate Carrion crown into Shadowrun for a group as I am running Shadowrun. I love both systems I just think it would be interesting...any thoughts or advice anyone could give me?