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And part of that use is making everyone else, including the fighters, fight better. Instead of repeating the same canard that everyone else is, why not simply state what you want.. You either want to take away something from wizards or boost something on fighters.it still puts the wizard miles ahead of the fighter in terms of utility and use for the party.This is one of the major problems that make up the inequality debate. Ted can do this at level 1, while Sir Gregory the Mighty, champion of a thousand battles, and hero of the Kingdom of Wherever, level 20 Fighter, can never, ever do this without having a magic spell or item to allow it.The system, including classes, is built on the assumption that characters will acquire magic items. If you see this as a problem, UnChained! just gave you a whole book full of ways to adjust the game, depending on what you codify as an end goal.
i want people to stop denying the problem exists so that paizo might do something about it.
Ok, now you fail your Save or Die by 5. Shame about that. The caster on the other hand is fine.Winged boots. Next.They also don't have to choose between those wings of flying and +5 to all saves.
You don't see many casters spending big bucks for wings of flying, or +3 haramakis when they have mage armor and overland flight.Most people wear boots of resistance? Huh interesting.
There's plenty of other part casters that don't cast fly either. And mass transit and mass floght spells are in fact a thing.
i think he's insinuating they both cost money. i think most people wear boots of earth or what ever.(or at least have a pair)
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Just about every post in this thread is personal houserules. The OP was asking why was realism part of the game 'because Fantasy' but of course it got way off base.There is no houseruling when using 20d6 as the maximum damage that can be dealt with damage. The fact people, when using the rules in the game, can fall off a cliff and then stand up and continue walking, is not a houserule and is not realistic. Even when implementing your "maximum damage, no rolling required" houserule.
In my houserule I would also remove the 20d6 cap and use the old dragon magazine rule of cumulative per 10'. So 60' would be 21d6 and then would cap it 55d6 at 100'. So in my game don't fall very far.
Edit: Yes this is MOSTLY sarcasm.
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The 'Luck Factor' is rolling the damage dice. If you just jump off a cliff because you "know" it cant kill you and its the fastest way down, I remove the 'luck factor' and just apply the maximum damage.The luck factor in falls is actually about how you land and possibly about how your body is oriented to the fall [a fall parallel to gravitational forces is significantly faster than a fall perpendicular to them, because of air resistance]
The 20d6 cap is there for a reason. A google search will reveal half a dozen or more normal people who have survived falls out of airplanes without anything other than the clothes on their backs and sometimes their airplane seat.
A ridiculously lucky level one commoner with at least 14 constitution who stabilizes quickly enough can survive a 20d6 fall, on the minuscule chance the fall rolls one for damage 20 times.
Intentionally.
In this google search did it tell how many people DIDN'T survive?
Also what did your google search tell you about how many people survived falling into a pool of lava?
But more than enough for a battleWinged boots. Next.They also don't have to choose between those wings of flying and +5 to all saves.
You don't see many casters spending big bucks for wings of flying, or +3 haramakis when they have mage armor and overland flight."three times per day for up to 5 minutes per flight"
Not quite Overland Flight.
It doesn't matter whether they pick up (or don't) winged boots or wings of flying. The point still stands either way.
i swam in lava and took 50 points of damage... :3 after the 1d3 rounds of half damage.
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...Stuff...
You know I have no problem with the way you guys like to play but personally I dont think of my characters as superheroic lava swimmers so I PREFER my games to be more realistic. Doesnt mean your way wouldnt be fun, but just like playing an mmo, I'd probably get bored eventually.
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Where does this come from? 20D6 of fire damage per round WILL KILL and make practically unraisable almost any unprotected character in the matter of a few rounds or many cases, just one. Have we forgotten that a round is no longer than six seconds?...Stuff...You know I have no problem with the way you guys like to play but personally I dont think of my characters as superheroic lava swimmers so I PREFER my games to be more realistic. Doesnt mean your way wouldnt be fun, but just like playing an mmo, I'd probably get bored eventually.
To get more info about what I was talking about just read a few posts back, lots falling damage and lava damage is easy to survive...in game of course.
no, i'm just saying it's possible for someone to bathe in lava for a round and survive pretty well. when it should be neigh impossible.
So long as they're less than 10 feet away from what they're perceiving, a commoner with completely average stats and no skills can perceive what's on the other side of a solid 1 foot thick wall 50% of the time.
Pathfinder by RAW is not meant to be realistic. It's supposed to provide a usable framework for story-telling.
While we're on the subject of lava though, here's a pretty great Ninja trick:
Light Steps (Ex): At 6th level, a ninja learns to move while barely touching the surface underneath her. As a full-round action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps, the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger.
That's an (Ex) ability, not magical. I would not be opposed to the Fighter getting a version of that where their calluses became so tough from their years of travel and combat that they could run across lava, caltrops or infernal razorwire unscathed. Sounds fun to me but your mileage may vary.
i think he's insinuating they both cost money. i think most people wear boots of earth or what ever.(or at least have a pair)Ok, now you fail your Save or Die by 5. Shame about that. The caster on the other hand is fine.Winged boots. Next.They also don't have to choose between those wings of flying and +5 to all saves.
You don't see many casters spending big bucks for wings of flying, or +3 haramakis when they have mage armor and overland flight.Most people wear boots of resistance? Huh interesting.
There's plenty of other part casters that don't cast fly either. And mass transit and mass floght spells are in fact a thing.
This is correct. I should have said "fail your save by 4" because a Cloak of Resistance +4 costs 16,000 GP which is the same amount that Winged Boots cost. Meanwhile, a caster has 16,000 in wondrous item crafting materials, to make a 32,000 GP item.
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Y'know I'm not sure.
I viewed it as a break down that a normal person could be submerged in lava and potentially still be living when they came out...
... but now that I think about it that was likely a mistake on my part. They'd be lethally burned [and still cooking from the residual heat and clinging goo] but in hindsight it's totally plausible that they could still be breathing and have their heart beating and still be feeling pain when they came out.
Point of 'realism' here, how ARE they coming out of the lava if their unconscious?
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Presuming, of course, that the crafter crafts for no one else in the party.
Takes to long to do anything major for anyone else. My feat, my items. And even if the caster did give them to martials it's once again the casters power not the martials.
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Presuming, of course, that the crafter crafts for no one else in the party.Takes to long to do anything major for anyone else. My feat, my items. And even if the caster did give them to martials it's once again the casters power not the martials.And there, in a nutshell, is the locus of the issue.
"My spells, my healing, you don't get any!"
"My spells, my buffs, you don't get any!"My sword, my damage, it won't protect you, you're on your own!
No it's not. The issue is the martials have nothing to contribute to the party. They can't actually protect the party in any meaningful way, they can't provide buffs, or healing, and only minimal amounts of battlefield control.
And seriously, you don't have time to make items for anyone else. If they want magic items they'll have to spend their own resources, not demand others use their spent resources for them. That's called being the load. Which is what a Martial is. Your argument is essentially "Everyone should contribute their resources towards making the Martial function." Sorry, that doesn't cut it in real life and it won't cut it here.
You must not be following the crafting time rules or making any big ticket items for yourself. You absolutely can find time to craft in all but the most hurried of campaigns, but even with a fast time demiplane, upgrading a Headband of Mental Superiority +4 to +6 takes time. And then you are going to need to upgrade your Belt of Physical Perfection. Sorry but the other team mates are going to have to wait. If they wanted half priced magic items on demand, they could have taken Craft Wondrous Item.
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Either dragged out by somebody with fire resistance/immunity/of high enough level to have enough hit points to endure the fire without losing consciousness, or Telekinesis'd out, or perhaps they were tied with steel cable and pulled out before the lava melted through it.Point of 'realism' here, how ARE they coming out of the lava if their unconscious?Y'know I'm not sure.
I viewed it as a break down that a normal person could be submerged in lava and potentially still be living when they came out...
... but now that I think about it that was likely a mistake on my part. They'd be lethally burned [and still cooking from the residual heat and clinging goo] but in hindsight it's totally plausible that they could still be breathing and have their heart beating and still be feeling pain when they came out.
Humm I thought the point was surviving WITHOUT immediate help. Guess I was wrong.
The cable thing is real stretch. First you'd have to have said cables available. Second you'd have to get the cables attached to the poor sap AND get him pulled out all on the same turn he fell in.
Telekinesis, I believe, is a line of sight/line of effect spell and I'm not sure if a body is visible in lava and if lava interferes with line of effect.
To me your adding a .001% of SOMETHING THAT WOULD WORK being available to your .001% chance that minimual damage is rolled in the first place.
Edit: I always though that survivability was based off of an average roll not a minimum roll, but I could be wrong.
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Diehard feat. You pull your flaming self out of the lava using your incredible willpower, and pray to your deities or lucky stars that you can stabilize afterwards.Either dragged out by somebody with fire resistance/immunity/of high enough level to have enough hit points to endure the fire without losing consciousness, or Telekinesis'd out, or perhaps they were tied with steel cable and pulled out before the lava melted through it.Point of 'realism' here, how ARE they coming out of the lava if their unconscious?Y'know I'm not sure.
I viewed it as a break down that a normal person could be submerged in lava and potentially still be living when they came out...
... but now that I think about it that was likely a mistake on my part. They'd be lethally burned [and still cooking from the residual heat and clinging goo] but in hindsight it's totally plausible that they could still be breathing and have their heart beating and still be feeling pain when they came out.
Humm I thought the point was surviving WITHOUT immediate help. Guess I was wrong.
The cable thing is real stretch. First you'd have to have said cables available. Second you'd have to get the cables attached to the poor sap AND get him pulled out all on the same turn he fell in.
Telekinesis, I believe, is a line of sight/line of effect spell and I'm not sure if a body is visible in lava and if lava interferes with line of effect.
To me your adding a .001% of SOMETHING THAT WOULD WORK being available to your .001% chance that minimual damage is rolled in the first place.
You'd still need outside help because the 1d3 rounds of 10d6 would end you, diehard or no diehard.
Edit: aslo not sure if a commner would spend 2 feats on the off chance he'll fall into lava AND roll minmum damage etc.
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You'd still need outside help because the 1d3 rounds of 10d6 would end you, diehard or no diehard.Diehard feat. You pull your flaming self out of the lava using your incredible willpower, and pray to your deities or lucky stars that you can stabilize afterwards.Either dragged out by somebody with fire resistance/immunity/of high enough level to have enough hit points to endure the fire without losing consciousness, or Telekinesis'd out, or perhaps they were tied with steel cable and pulled out before the lava melted through it.Point of 'realism' here, how ARE they coming out of the lava if their unconscious?Y'know I'm not sure.
I viewed it as a break down that a normal person could be submerged in lava and potentially still be living when they came out...
... but now that I think about it that was likely a mistake on my part. They'd be lethally burned [and still cooking from the residual heat and clinging goo] but in hindsight it's totally plausible that they could still be breathing and have their heart beating and still be feeling pain when they came out.
Humm I thought the point was surviving WITHOUT immediate help. Guess I was wrong.
The cable thing is real stretch. First you'd have to have said cables available. Second you'd have to get the cables attached to the poor sap AND get him pulled out all on the same turn he fell in.
Telekinesis, I believe, is a line of sight/line of effect spell and I'm not sure if a body is visible in lava and if lava interferes with line of effect.
To me your adding a .001% of SOMETHING THAT WOULD WORK being available to your .001% chance that minimual damage is rolled in the first place.
Acquire 20 more HP and hope for more lucky rolls.
Edit: Actually, you only need 10 more HP (IE, 2 commoner levels with 14 CON), because exposure damage after leaving...
The whole point was it was a level one commoner.
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I think the point of all the earlier falling and lava damage talk was that creatures (PCs over lvl 5 specifically) are not nearly as "Realistically" affected by the threat of falling and ultimately(to a lesser extent) by lava.
Whatever the source it's just damage in general...the assertion being that RAW the creature can now withstand a "Supernatural" amount of damage or is capable of shrugging off effects that would leave a "normal" flesh and blood human as little more than a grease spot.
Piggybacking on this notion,is that if PCs taking hellacious amounts of damage doesn't break immersion, why can't they perform other actions that seem to defy that same sense of "realism" i.e...have nice things..so to speak.
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The commoner surviving lava bit was a bit of a derail because somebody else mentioned a level one commoner potentially still alive after being dunked in lava [although certainly not surviving the after-damage without being optimized for such potential] wasn't the breakdown I assumed it to be. I did a bit of 'thinking out loud' about it, and then Jacob asked how the unconscious lava-dipped-commoner would get out.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Martial/Caster related thread.
This thread wasnt supposed to be a martail/caster thread, it was supposed to a realism/no realism in a 'fantsay' game but it got derailed long ago.