Broken Wing Gambit + In Harm’s Way

[Jotver]

can In harm's way work with broken wing gambit?
In harm's way:

Prerequisite: Bodyguard.
Benefit: While using the aid another action to improve an adjacent ally’s AC, you can intercept a successful attack against that ally as an immediate action, taking full damage from that attack and any associated effects (bleed, poison, etc.). A creature cannot benefit from this feat more than once per attack.

Broken Wing Gambit:

Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks.
Benefit: Whenever you make a melee attack and hit your opponent, you can use a free action to grant that opponent a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against you until the end of your next turn or until your opponent attacks you, whichever happens first. If that opponent attacks you with this bonus, it provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat.

My issue is the wording, I've already gotten confirmation that the creature has to use the bonus and can't choose not to. What i am worried about is if lets say an animal companion uses broken wing gambit then uses in harm's way to take an attack would it provoke? See with the wording I am not sure because the creature didn't attack the animal companion but it did hit it and would probably still get the +2 damage.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I think it works. It's complicated though, because now you're talking about you and an ally who both have BWG, aren't you? Who is granting the +2 bonus determines who is the AoO trigger, and In Harm's Way might change who the attacker is attacking. I need to think about it on a case-by-case basis.

[Jotver]

Well no. Only me and my pet would have broken wing gambit, I'd be giving everyone the teamwork feat Paired Opportunists:

Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who also has this feat, you receive a +4 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity against creatures that you both threaten. Enemies that provoke attacks of opportunity from your ally also provoke attacks of opportunity from you so long as you threaten them (even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity). This does not allow you to take more than one attack of opportunity against a creature for a given action.

using the Holy Tactician paladin's 3rd level Battlefield Presence aura.
So if my pet takes the attack and then enemy provokes then everyone in reach of that enemy would get an attack.

[Jotver]

I also plan on having a 18-29 keen (15-20) crit weapon and the Outflank teamwork feat so when I crit it will provoke from my pet and then everyone else with the Paired Opportunist.

[Jotver]

But a huge part of if this build will work needs this question answered xD

[Dekalinder]

It does not work. The requisite for the bonus attack is

Broken Wing Gambit wrote:

If that opponent attacks you with this bonus

First, it did not attack you and second, he did not recieve the bonus to hit.

There is difference between attack you and hit you, and In Harms Way only verify the second.

[Jotver]

That's what I was thinking as well sadly.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Dekalinder wrote:

It does not work. The requisite for the bonus attack is

Broken Wing Gambit wrote:

If that opponent attacks you with this bonus

First, it did not attack you and second, he did not recieve the bonus to hit.

There is difference between attack you and hit you, and In Harms Way only verify the second.

If he and his pet have BWG, and if their opponent attacks the pet with the bonus, then he and the pet get the AoO with the Bonus. All the Allies do if they are gifted with BWG via Paired Opportunist. He gets more than 1 AoO, Bodyguard triggers because his ally is attacked, and Broken Wing Gambit triggers because his opponent is using the +2.

The only question I have is if he uses In Harm's Way to intercept the attack, does that mean his pet who was granting the bonus is still being attacked, triggering BWG, or is the opponent now attacking him instead, no longer triggering BWG. I think it's the former, and BWG still triggers. That's probably an academic question anyway, since in all liklihood both he and his pet are offing the BWG bonus.

Further, Bodyguard is an Attack of Opportunity trigger. If his pet has Paired Opportunist, his pet and all allies with PO get attacks of opportunity because he got one off of Bodyguard and a 2nd one because his opponent used the +2 BWG bonus against the pet. The fact that the Bodyguard AoO has to be an Aid Another doesn't mean it isn't an Attack of Opportunity. If you are really afraid of the DM insisting on treating it that way, then Take some Archon Style Feats instead, and achieve the same effect.

[Jotver]

OH I just thought that the AoO from Bodyguard would all have to be spent on ac boosts (still awesome really). But your right it does not say that other AoO have to be spent as such.

[Jotver]

Bodyguard:
Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

I'm not sure its actually triggering an AoO. It looks like you just have to spend one of your AoO to make an aid another roll

[claudekennilol]

Jotver wrote:

Bodyguard:

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

I'm not sure its actually triggering an AoO. It looks like you just have to spend one of your AoO to make an aid another roll

I'm not sure what question you're trying to ask/answer. But your last sentence is correct. Bodyguard isn't responding to something that provokes an AoO. You're merely expending one use of your remaining AoOs to do something in a situation you normally wouldn't be able to do.

[Jotver]

It was to what Scott said. He was saying that pared opportunist would trigger due to bodyguard.

[Jotver]

Archon Style wont work ether due to it being a standard action and BWG needing an attack to activate. And my dm is stating that due to the enemy not attacking the creature just happening to hit him BWG does not trigger for in harms way.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Jotver wrote:

Bodyguard:

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

I'm not sure its actually triggering an AoO. It looks like you just have to spend one of your AoO to make an aid another roll

Someone attacking your ally does provoke an attack of opportunity when you have Bodyguard. You have to take an Aid Another action, not a real attack, but I'm really pretty sure it still counts as an attack of opportunity, which means that if your allies have Paired Opportunist, they get attacks of opportunity because you got one, even if all you got to do was Aid Another.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Jotver wrote:

Archon Style wont work ether due to it being a standard action and BWG needing an attack to activate. And my dm is stating that due to the enemy not attacking the creature just happening to hit him BWG does not trigger for in harms way.

Archon Diversion and Justice trigger on Move and Swift actions respectively. But you have a point: it makes more sense if just everybody is using BWG, everybody offers the bonus, and if that bonus is taken, then everybody gets Attacks of Opporunity.

BWG would sort of stack with Snake Fang: if your opponent takes the bonus, he provokes. If the attack misses, it also provokes. And if Paired Opportunist is in play, it's AoO's all around.

[claudekennilol]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Jotver wrote:

Bodyguard:

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

I'm not sure its actually triggering an AoO. It looks like you just have to spend one of your AoO to make an aid another roll

Someone attacking your ally does provoke an attack of opportunity when you have Bodyguard. You have to take an Aid Another action, not a real attack, but I'm really pretty sure it still counts as an attack of opportunity, which means that if your allies have Paired Opportunist, they get attacks of opportunity because you got one, even if all you got to do was Aid Another.

No it doesn't. "Provokes" is a very specific term which bodyguard doesn't have. Bodyguard doesn't work with Paired Opportunists.

[Jotver]

Thanks for letting me know about the further style feats I didn't think to check them out i'm doing that now. And thanks for all the help with this you guys, I am trying to make a character that gets everyone 1-2 extra attacks per turn using AoO. Well at least the melee people in range.

[Scott Wilhelm]

claudekennilol wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Jotver wrote:

Bodyguard:

Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.

I'm not sure its actually triggering an AoO. It looks like you just have to spend one of your AoO to make an aid another roll

Someone attacking your ally does provoke an attack of opportunity when you have Bodyguard. You have to take an Aid Another action, not a real attack, but I'm really pretty sure it still counts as an attack of opportunity, which means that if your allies have Paired Opportunist, they get attacks of opportunity because you got one, even if all you got to do was Aid Another.

No it doesn't. "Provokes" is a very specific term which bodyguard doesn't have. Bodyguard doesn't work with Paired Opportunists.

I think it does. The Bodyguard Feat description does not use the word "provoke," but I don't think provoke is the very specific game term you say it is.

The Core Rulebook only allows for 1 situation where a character can make an attack of opportunity: some other character provokes one.

Attacks of Opportunity wrote:

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity....

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square....

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

In other words, all situations that allow a Pathfinder character to make an attack of opportunity are situations where that attack was "provoked." There is no provision for some other way to make an attack of opportunity when you are not provoked. The fact that Bodyguard says "you may use an attack of opportunity" instead of "provokes an attack of opportunity from you," does not rewrite the whole attack of opportunity system. It does not create some new way of making attacks of opportunity without being provoked. If you are about to tell me that "specific trumps general," you are right, in general, but in this specific case, there is no reason to suppose that the Bodyguard Feat desctiption is doing all that.

There is a list of things in the Combat section of which actions provoke attacks of opportunity and which don't. Not on that list is Being Tripped. But if you have the Greater Trip Feat, you do get to make an attack of opportunity when you trip somebody. This is a case of specific-trumps-general: Greater Trip gives you the ability to add Getting Tripped by You to the list of things that provoke attacks of opportunity from you.

Just like with Greater Trip, the Bodyguard Feat gives you the ability to add Attack an Ally to the list of things that provoke an attack of opportunity from you. You need a compelling reason to suppose there is some new way of trumping of the rules that is going on, here.

And the fact that you only get to use this "attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action" just isn't compelling. Aid Another is one of those things people do with their attack actions, even though it isn't a proper attack. Aid Another is an attack: it is listed in the Core Rulebook under the heading "Special Attacks." A Special Attack is a kind of Attack, and in this case, an Attack of Opportunity.

There are other feats that give you attacks of opportunity but limit which actions you can take with that opportunity, but they are still attacks of opportunity, and they still trigger Paired Opportunist. And the characters that gets to go on on Paired Opportunist don't have any limiting options even if the original AoO was limited. If I have Snake Fang and you have Paired Opportunist, the AoO I get from Snake Fang has to be an Unarmed Strike, but when you use Paired Opportunist, you can go ahead and use your Greatsword. Just because the options granted by Bodyguard's attack of opportunity are limited, doesn't mean it's not an attack of opportunity.

The thing that it says Bodyguard gives you is an Attack of Opportunity, and Paired Opportunist says that when I get one, you get one. The fact that the Benefit description of Bodyguard doesn't use the word "provoke" doesn't matter because you can only take attacks of opportunity when they are provoked.