A pretty heated discussion is underway on this topic. To make it more specific, would a pc with the Shield-Trained trait be allowed to have Agile placed on a heavy shield?
I'm not looking for house rulings (the inevitable "I'd allow it").
I made my feelings on this clear in the original discussion, but I'll summarize them here.
Society play only cares about RAW. The text of Agile makes no distinction between weapons which can be finessed and those which can be finessed without modification. If you can use it with Weapon Finesse, it is a viable candidate for Agile.
This faq http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t7t suggests that you cannot. The weapon shouldn't care how you individually treat it for purposes of enchanting.
Now you can argue that the FAQ isn't specifically about the exact same thing and so doesn't officially answer this question. But it does clearly show what the intent is.
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No.
A heavy shield is, by definition, a one-handed (not light) weapon. The physical properties of a heavy shield are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
Compare to this FAQ which admittedly is about bastard swords but the same exact line of reasoning applies here in the same exact way.
The Agile enhancement can only be applied to light weapons which the heavy shield is not.
Melkiador's FAQ reference is another good example here.
to be a little nit-picky here, the agile enhancement states, "This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat."
it states nothing about light weapons.
Also, the statements about, "For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it." kind of support it.
No.
A heavy shield is, by definition, a one-handed (not light) weapon. The physical properties of a heavy shield are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
Compare to this FAQ which admittedly is about bastard swords but the same exact line of reasoning applies here in the same exact way.
The Agile enhancement can only be applied to light weapons which the heavy shield is not.
Melkiador's FAQ reference is another good example here.
Except the FAQ you linked states that, for all intents and purposes, when you are wielding a bastard sword one handed (requiring an ability to do so), it is a one-handed weapon.
By that same logic, when wielding a heavy shield as a weapon and possessing the Gorumite shield trait, itbis for all intents and purposes a light weapon. Therefore finessible, therefore a viable target for Agile.
Being nitpicky is fine if that's what you want. The rules as written are left vague here, but the intent is clear that you can not.
"This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat." But any melee weapon is usable with Weapon Finesse if you try hard enough, so why include that limitation at all. For instance, I can finesse a longsword if I cast Enlarge Person on myself before I pick it up, so a longsword is finessable.
Being nitpicky is fine if that's what you want. The rules as written are left vague here, but the intent is clear that you can not.
"This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat." But any melee weapon is usable with Weapon Finesse if you try hard enough, so why include that limitation at all. For instance, I can finesse a longsword if I cast Enlarge Person on myself before I pick it up, so a longsword is finessable.
Technically, yes. You COULD do that, but you'd still need Finesse and it would be a pretty crappy setup.
But on the flip side, your interpretation keeps some weapons which are finessible via Swashbuckler Finesse from being very viable for Swashbucklers since they cannot have Dex added to their damage.
And at the end of the day, barring FAQ, Society players cannot for certain know RAI and must go by RAW.
Being nitpicky is fine if that's what you want. The rules as written are left vague here, but the intent is clear that you can not.
"This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat." But any melee weapon is usable with Weapon Finesse if you try hard enough, so why include that limitation at all. For instance, I can finesse a longsword if I cast Enlarge Person on myself before I pick it up, so a longsword is finessable.
Why not give your greatsword to a huge giant, he can finesse that, so cast Agile on it.
For that matter, any ranged weapon could be used as an improvised melee weapon and then, with the right feats and/or traits could be used with Weapon Finesse, so, well, voila!
Now everybody can put Agile on any weapon. I'm so ready for my Agile longbows and greatswords to hit the market...
/sarcasm
Maybe it should be changed to 'Only functions if the weapon can be used with weapon finesse"? There are lots of abilities that 'only go on X' and a lot of class abilities that let you 'treat y as x'.
If you have brawling on a mithral breastplate, and add the pieces to make it mithral full plate, does brawling cease to function?
In short, it's not about who can use it with the right conditions, it's about how the weapon is designated in the first place. With the right designation, the weapon is eligible for Agile. Without it, it's not. Heavy Shields are not.
Having an ogre enchant your Heavy Shield with Agile, because for him it's a light weapon and can be used with Weapon Finesse, is just exploiting a loophole in the rules - if the weapon cannot be eligible for an enchantment created by someone of an appropriate size to use it normally, then just having someone bigger do it is an exploit at which any sensible GM should scoff.
Or better yet, turn it around and say a gnome enchanter couldn't put Agile on a normal size rapier or dagger, so, obviously, those weapons are NOT eligible for Agile either - might as well just remove Agile from the game since it can really only be safely applied to "Fine" sized light weapons - and since there no rapier-wielding gnats buzzing around Golarion, there is no need for this weapon enhancement.
In short, it's not about who can use it with the right conditions, it's about how the weapon is designated in the first place. With the right designation, the weapon is eligible for Agile. Without it, it's not. Heavy Shields are not.
Having an ogre enchant your Heavy Shield with Agile, because for him it's a light weapon and can be used with Weapon Finesse, is just exploiting a loophole in the rules - if the weapon cannot be eligible for an enchantment created by someone of an appropriate size to use it normally, then just having someone bigger do it is an exploit at which any sensible GM should scoff.
Or better yet, turn it around and say a gnome enchanter couldn't put Agile on a normal size rapier or dagger, so, obviously, those weapons are NOT eligible for Agile either - might as well just remove Agile from the game since it can really only be safely applied to "Fine" sized light weapons - and since there no rapier-wielding gnats buzzing around Golarion, there is no need for this weapon enhancement.
So, a Swashbuckler must only utilize regularly finessable to have Swashbuckler's Finesse be useful?
What about the Aldori Dueling Sword?
Maybe it should be changed to 'Only functions if the weapon can be used with weapon finesse"
Yes, that would have been much better. All enchantments should work that way. I should be able to cast Returning or Distance on a greatsword, or Dancing on a longbow, etc., and as long as I'm using the weapon in a way that the ability applies, it works, and when I'm not, it doesn't work. (yes, that means I need to hurl my greatswrod and it means my dancing longbow will be making improvised melee attacks).
However, for now, the rules only say "only placed on" rather than "only functions on", so this idea, while it's a good one, is really an idea for a house rule.
So, a Swashbuckler must only utilize regularly finessable to have Swashbuckler's Finesse be useful?
What about the Aldori Dueling Sword?
Read those FAQs linked above. If YOU have a class ability that affects how YOU can use a weapon, then YOU treat it differently but only with regard to that ability - for all other purposes, the actual designation of what that weapon actually is remains unchanged.
Weapon Finesse can only be used with a weapon “made for a creature of your size category”. The loophole folks are worrying about doesn’t exist.
Where are you getting that quote from? I don't see it in the feat.
He's right.
"With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls."
An item exists in its own right, and has to be valid on its own regardless of who is wielding it.
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Weapon Finesse can only be used with a weapon “made for a creature of your size category”. The loophole folks are worrying about doesn’t exist.Where are you getting that quote from? I don't see it in the feat.
He's right, and GM_Blake misspoke.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Actually I was saying you can't do it. Or sarcastically pretending you couldto illustrate the reality that you can't - by way of Reductio ad Absurdum (literally, in the case of "Fine" sized weapons). True, I forgot it had that provision so I thought I was using logic instead of using RAW, but the end is the same.
Most importantly, ALL other similar loopholes should use the same logic, regardless of whether it has the explicit provision or not.
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It's really as simple (as has been pointed out already) as..
Can I use this with weapon finesse? => (implies) it can have Agile on it.
Anything else is just going to have loopholes and doesn't go with what the rules say.
No, it's even simpler if you ask "Can EVERYONE use this with Weapon Finesse?" and then only apply Agile if the answer is yes.
Otherwise, you get this:
Fred: I want to enchant this heavy shield with Agile.
GM: You can't.
Fred: Why not? Bob enchanted it on his heavy shield, why can't I enchant it on mine?
GM: Bob has the Shield-Trained trait. You don't.
Fred: But that makes no sense! These two heavy shields are identical, and it's the same identical Agile trait. If it works for Bob it should work for me.
GM: It doesn't.
Fred: Well, what if I plan to give this heavy shield to Bob? Yeah, that's it, this really is Bob's heavy shield, so now can I enchant it with Agile?
GM: Sure, if it's Bob's shield and he has the trait, you can enchant it with Agile, but you have to give it to Bob. If you're just saying that so you can enchant it and use it yourself, I'll make rocks fall and kill you.
Bob: Well, just give it to me and I'll enchant it with Agile and give it back to you so you can use it.
GM: Won't work.
Bob: Why not? I just enchanted my own heavy shield with Agile and that worked perfectly.
GM: Yeah, but you have the Shield-Trained trait. Fred doesn't.
Bob: That's right, I have the trait and I am doing the enchanting, so it should work.
GM: No, it's Fred's heavy shield and he doesn't have the trait, so you can't enchant it with Agile.
Bob and Fred in unison: So somehow the non-sentient heavy shield just knows who owns it and refuses to be enchanted with Agile based on ownership of the shield and who has the Shield-Trained feat?
GM: ER, uh, ummm... You know what? Rocks fall and kill both of you...
Always remember that some abilities care about how you use a weapon (Power Attack, I'm looking at you) and some abilities care about what the weapon actually is (such as Agile). Just because you can use a weapon in a different way, doesn't mean you can fool the abilities that care about what it is. Abilities that care about the how a weapon is wielded are easier to fool.
No.
A heavy shield is, by definition, a one-handed (not light) weapon. The physical properties of a heavy shield are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
Compare to this FAQ which admittedly is about bastard swords but the same exact line of reasoning applies here in the same exact way.
The Agile enhancement can only be applied to light weapons which the heavy shield is not.
By this reasoning, the Agile enhancement can't be applied to rapiers, because rapiers are one-handed weapons (not light weapons). But there are many agile rapiers out there.
By this reasoning, the Agile enhancement can't be applied to rapiers, because rapiers are one-handed weapons (not light weapons). But there are many agile rapiers out there.No.
A heavy shield is, by definition, a one-handed (not light) weapon. The physical properties of a heavy shield are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
Compare to this FAQ which admittedly is about bastard swords but the same exact line of reasoning applies here in the same exact way.
The Agile enhancement can only be applied to light weapons which the heavy shield is not.
You're right, I was going for brevity when I should have quoted the Agile enchantment which says: "This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat."
A rapier, while not a light weapon, has a specific property that still allows it to be used with Weapon Finesse even though it is not light.
The stuff in that FAQ I quoted references the physical properties of the weapon to determine how it can be used. "Finesse" is a physical property of weapons like the rapier that have this property. Because a rapier has this physical property, it can be used with Weapon Finesse and therefore can be enchanted by Agile.
A heavy shield does not have this "Finesse" property no any other physical property that would make it eligible for the Agile enchantment, therefore it is not, regardless of any feats/traits/abilities of the person enchanting it.
By this reasoning, the Agile enhancement can't be applied to rapiers, because rapiers are one-handed weapons (not light weapons). But there are many agile rapiers out there.No.
A heavy shield is, by definition, a one-handed (not light) weapon. The physical properties of a heavy shield are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.
Compare to this FAQ which admittedly is about bastard swords but the same exact line of reasoning applies here in the same exact way.
The Agile enhancement can only be applied to light weapons which the heavy shield is not.
You're right, I was going for brevity when I should have quoted the Agile enchantment which says: "This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat."
A rapier, while not a light weapon, has a specific property that still allows it to be used with Weapon Finesse even though it is not light.
The stuff in that FAQ I quoted references the physical properties of the weapon to determine how it can be used. "Finesse" is a physical property of weapons like the rapier that have this property. Because a rapier has this physical property, it can be used with Weapon Finesse and therefore can be enchanted by Agile.
A heavy shield does not have this "Finesse" property no any other physical property that would make it eligible for the Agile enchantment, therefore it is not, regardless of any feats/traits/abilities of the person enchanting it.
So what the Aldori Dueling Sword (which someone already asked)?
It specifically calls out that it can be used with Weapon Finesse, but only if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. So it has a defined physical property of "can be used with Weapon Finesse" in the description, but that property relies on a feat of the user.
(Side note: brevity isn't inherently a good thing in rules discussions.)
I think that an important way of looking at it is that while a weapon is being wielded by someone with such a special feat, it can be used with finesse. however, when a weapon is being enchanted, it is not being wielded, and thus is not finessable if not normally finessable.
in regards to the dueling sword, it is listed as an exotic weapon, so its normal property is that its finessable and thus agile. in this way, its possible to argue that you get a functional longsword with agile, but you can also argue that if you use it as a logsword, agile simply doesnt work. similar to how you lose the ability to use a feat without losing the feat if you lose a prerequisite.
So what the Aldori Dueling Sword (which someone already asked)?
It specifically calls out that it can be used with Weapon Finesse, but only if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. So it has a defined physical property of "can be used with Weapon Finesse" in the description, but that property relies on a feat of the user.
I would still call that a physical property of the weapon - it's listed in the weapon description that it can conditionally be used with Weapon Finesse, so that is just a unique and somewhat restricted version of the "Finesse" weapon property.
The line to be drawn is whether it's a listed property of the generic weapon.
Personally, I think they blew it. I think they should have made it a one-handed weapon and then created a trait or feat or class ability that treated it as a light weapon for people with that feature. Then it would have worked exactly like Shield-Trained and would not have had a unique weapon property that blurs that line.
(Side note: brevity isn't inherently a good thing in rules discussions.)
Too true.
If you're familiar with most of my posts, I usually tend to be too wordy, which often makes readers just skip my posts or skim them badly and miss most or all of what I was trying to say.
But apparently my efforts to remedy that with brevity are failing too.
So what the Aldori Dueling Sword (which someone already asked)?
It specifically calls out that it can be used with Weapon Finesse, but only if you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. So it has a defined physical property of "can be used with Weapon Finesse" in the description, but that property relies on a feat of the user.
I would still call that a physical property of the weapon - it's listed in the weapon description that it can conditionally be used with Weapon Finesse, so that is just a unique and somewhat restricted version of the "Finesse" weapon property.
The line to be drawn is whether it's a listed property of the generic weapon.
So how does this line interact with the Returning property?
"Returning: This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown."Any weapon (like a dagger) that has "thrown" in the description can be made returning. But if the character is wielding the weapon in melee and is disarmed/drops the weapon, does the weapon return to them at the beginning of their next turn? Or does the weapon only count as "returning" when the character throws it?
Similarly, how does it interact with the Furious property?
"Furious: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A furious weapon serves as a focus for its wielder's anger. When the wielder is raging or under the effect of a rage spell, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than normal."
If a weapon (like a dagger) can be both used in melee and thrown, it should be a valid target for the Furious enhancement. But if a raging character throws a weapon with the Furious enhancement, do they get the bonus? Or do they only get the Furious bonus when they use the weapon in melee?
If being a valid target for an enhancement property is an inherent property of the weapon, then the disarmed character can benefit from Returning and a raging character can get +2 attack/damage when throwing a Furious dagger.
Is that how you would rule those?
Did some digging and found the relevant text.
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted).
As far as I could dig, I could not find anything that states outright whether a thrown furious dagger gets the furious bonus, or whether an agile dueling sword works when used as a longsword. (however, i would say that the returning weapon doesn't return when dropped, because it was not thrown).
So my two arguments, I believe, make sense to be as follows:
-A weapon can be enchanted with any enhancement that is appropriate for any base form of the weapon. This means a dagger can be given an enhancement that is for melee weapons or one that is for thrown weapons, and a dueling sword can be given agile since it's usable with finesse.
-A weapon cannot be enchanted with any situationally met prerequisites. This means that a greatsword cannot be enchanted with returning simply because a class has a feature that allows him to use it as a throwing weapon, nor can a shield be enchanted with agile simply because the wielder can use it with weapon finesse.
However, a question still remains that I cannot figure out. I have found no direct support for or against this point:
-If you have a weapon that fits multiple categories enchanted with an enhancement that only can be placed on one category, does that enhancement work when using that weapon as the other category? Example: Furious dagger when thrown.
Personally, I feel like we should use previous precedents set before us. When you have a feat that you lose prerequisites for, you cannot use that feat. When you have a feat or class feature that requires a melee weapon, you cannot use a thrown dagger as part of that feat or class feature. For these reasons, I believe that an enhancement for melee weapons does not apply to a thrown weapon, since it doesn't fit the prerequisite. However, again, I can't seem to find anything by RAW that supports this.
This may call for a FAQ. What do you guys think?
Returning: There is a difference between throwing it and dropping it. It returns if you throw it (explicitly stated in the text). It also drops to the ground if you don't catch it (also explicitly stated). So clearly the rule (and hence the returning weapon) have a distinction between being thrown and being dropped.
Furious: A dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown. As such, it is eligible for the Furious enchantment and the bonus applies if you throw it.
For Furious weapons, it only applies when wielded by a raging creature. Once it leaves your hand, it no longer gains the bonus, similar to thrown weapons and Enlarge Person.
I'm still curious on what happens when at item has a valid enchantment, and something gets changed so its no longer a 'legal' enchantment.
I don't think the size category of the weapon should come into this at all. A shortsword designed for a large character is sill a shortsword, even though it cannot be used with weapon finesse when wielded by a medium creature.
From the rules of weapons:
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
There is a clear distinction between using a large character using a medium longsword with finesse because he is a large character and a large character using a large shortsword with finesse because it is a finessable weapon appropriately designed for him. This falls into the same reasoning as a shield being finessable because you have a feat. A weapon is not conditionally enchantable based upon who can wield it with finesse, but rather if it is designed that way.
So, a small shortsword, a medium shortsword, and a large shortsword are all shortswords, even if the tiny creature must wield the medium shortsword as a one-handed weapon and the large shortsword as a two-handed weapon. Because the weapon is still a shortsword designed for the appropriate wielder, it is a light weapon that is usable with weapon finesse and thus can be enchanted with agile. A medium longsword is a one-handed weapon. Even though a large creature can wield it as a light weapon and thus use weapon finesse with it, it cannot be enchanted with agile because it is a one-handed weapon not normally usable with weapon finesse.
For Furious weapons, it only applies when wielded by a raging creature. Once it leaves your hand, it no longer gains the bonus, similar to thrown weapons and Enlarge Person.
I'm still curious on what happens when at item has a valid enchantment, and something gets changed so its no longer a 'legal' enchantment.
I think there's a difference between an enchantment on the weapon remaining in effect after being thrown, and an enchantment on person using the weapon becoming inapplicable to the weapon once the weapon is thrown.
So, in other words, a medium creature that wants agile on a two-handed sword should get a huge shortsword with the agile enchantment and suck up the penalty to hit.
That sound about right?
By RAW, I think that should work.
What about a large rapier?
A huge spellcaster should and can enchant a huge shortsword with the agile property, a weapon that would be 'two-handed' for a medium creature.
A small gnome could do that too, because the definition of whether the shortsword can receive the Agile enchantment is based on it being a shortsword, not on the actual size of the weapon or the caster. By RAW.
So, why couldn't they enchant a medium two-handed sword?.
Because greatswords of any size are not eligible. Appropriately sized creatures can't use weapon finesse with them.
Why does it have to be a huge spellcaster?.
It Doesn't.
Is enchanting items tied to the size of the creator?.
No.
Similarly, a normal, medium sized short sword can be enchanted with the agile property, give that to a tiny creature and it's a two-handed weapon. So, why can't a tiny two-handed sword be enchanted with the agile property? Isn't it finessable by a medium creature?.
See above.
Weapon Finesse has the clause "made for a creature of your size category" so applying the Agile property needs to take this into consideration - a tiny two-handed sword is only eligible for Agile if a creature of the same size category (Tiny) could use it with Weapon Finesse.
The rules break down completely unless you slightly modify them such that the agile property can be put on anything, but only actually works if the weapon itself is being used with the weapon finesse feat.
I think the rules are pretty clear, but I also wish they just let you put the enchantment wherever you want and only apply it when the weapon is being USED in an eligible way.
So, in other words, a medium creature that wants agile on a two-handed sword should get a huge shortsword with the agile enchantment and suck up the penalty to hit.
That sound about right?
Pretty much. However, this again goes into odd territory that I'm not sure of. The prerequisites for an agile enchantment is that it's able to be used with weapon finesse.
Obviously, in the case of a medium creature wielding a huge shortsword, it cannot be used with weapon finesse. So even though the weapon itself is agile, can the medium creature apply dex to damage even though he can't use weapon finesse with the weapon?
To repeat myself, I feel that this is a question that needs answering:
If you have a weapon that fits multiple categories enchanted with an enhancement that only can be placed on one category, does that enhancement work when using that weapon as the other category? Example: Furious dagger when thrown.
This would extend to different size categories as well. I feel that there isn't much question of what is RAW for how different weapons can be enchanted, but do edge cases of wielding weapons differently nullify the benefits of that enchantment?
Examples that have come up in this thread:
-Dueling sword wielded using martial weapon proficiency: Does Agile work?
-Dagger wielded as a thrown weapon: Does furious work?
-Dagger wielded as a melee weapon: Does veering work?(as an extension of the previous example)
-A light weapon of a larger category wielded by a smaller creature: Does Agile work?
All are examples where a weapon can legally be enchanted with those abilities but the weapon is being wielded in a way differently from what can normally be enchanted with that ability. I feel personally that they wouldn't work, but I don't know for sure.
Furthermore, right in the enchantment they talk about two-handed weapons, so something a bit squirrely is going on.
Well, for one, I could apply Agile to one end of a double weapon. Sure, it's a 2H weapon but it's always treated as a 1H/Light weapon when fighting with it as a two-weapon-fighting attack. But I could also just grab one end and swing it like a 2H weapon - when I do, I don't get x1.5 DEX damage, but I would still get x1 DEX damage in place of x1.5 STR damage.
It might also be talking about weapons like the elven curve blade. The elven curve blade is a two-handed weapon that is finessable.
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No, it's even simpler if you ask "Can EVERYONE use this with Weapon Finesse?" and then only apply Agile if the answer is yes.
Otherwise, you get this:
Fred: I want to enchant this heavy shield with Agile.
GM: You can't.
Fred: Why not? Bob enchanted it on his heavy shield, why can't I enchant it on mine?
GM: Bob has the Shield-Trained trait. You don't.
Fred: But that makes no sense! These two heavy shields are identical, and it's the same identical Agile trait. If it works for Bob it should work for me...
Why does Fred want Agile on his heavy shield if he can't use it with Weapon Finesse?
If Fred has Weapon Finesse, it's to his advantage to use a weapon that can be finessed, like a light shield - the increase in accuracy will more than outweigh the +1 AC.
If Fred doesn't have Weapon Finesse, he can't benefit from Agile - since as _Ozy_ pointed out, the description states that only "A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls..."
No, it's even simpler if you ask "Can EVERYONE use this with Weapon Finesse?" and then only apply Agile if the answer is yes.
Otherwise, you get this:
Fred: I want to enchant this heavy shield with Agile.
GM: You can't.
Fred: Why not? Bob enchanted it on his heavy shield, why can't I enchant it on mine?
GM: Bob has the Shield-Trained trait. You don't.
Fred: But that makes no sense! These two heavy shields are identical, and it's the same identical Agile trait. If it works for Bob it should work for me...Why does Fred want Agile on his heavy shield if he can't use it with Weapon Finesse?
If Fred has Weapon Finesse, it's to his advantage to use a weapon that can be finessed, like a light shield - the increase in accuracy will more than outweigh the +1 AC.
If Fred doesn't have Weapon Finesse, he can't benefit from Agile - since as _Ozy_ pointed out, the description states that only "A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls..."
Maybe he's planning to retrain for the trait.
The point was not why he wants it, the point is that it's absurd that he cannot do it without having a trait.